Are too many teachers women?

silverharp · 29-11-2017 11:42am

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

It also calls into question the nature of being the "best" if it equals "450" . The LC has an element of rewarding quantity over higher level thinking?

Permabear · 29-11-2017 12:01pm

This post has been deleted.

Ballstein · 29-11-2017 12:03pm

14 pages of a thread and a recurring theme seems to be the low status of teachers. I find this strange to be honest. Across the globe teachers are universally viewed as one of the most important group of people in a society. It's a profession that actually does some good in a society as opposed to something like the legal profession which by and large thrives on misery and misfortune. Male primary school teachers have such a huge impact on young boys development that I cannot understand how the current disparity in the genders isn't at the top of all the current issues. I think the whole issue of the brightest and best in our society being drawn away from professions that actually do some good like education and public service into empty, rapacious fields like finance, real estate development and law is leading us down a horrible path.

mirrorwall14 · 29-11-2017 12:05pm

With all due respect there are bigger problems in getting teachers at all than the gender gap, though some of them are more obvious in the boy v girl debate.

I went into teaching with a STEM and an art subject. I’m female. Everyone around me though I was absolutely insane and that was over 10 years ago. Why would I ‘waste myself’. My career guidance teacher refused to see me again.

However I wanted to teach. So I did my best to eliminate issues by going with maths which I love but is also core subject and one where it’s possible to teach a full 22hrs even if I didn’t get my second subject on my timetable of Music.

It took 7 years to get CID status. Contracts were battles. Removing hours that were mine and attempting to give me hours that wouldn’t lead to permanency for example. (Two schools). Jobs advertised with misleading advertisements hoping that you’d be in the door and would stay on an inferior contract. When I finally got my CID, four of us that year, yes FOUR were given a contract of 17hrs 40 so as to avoid paying us full pay. 20 minutes extra on the contract would give full pay and we would teach full hours. Instead ETB tried to shaft us all out of 15% of our contract. Luckily I was paying attention. No joy with the principal who shrugged his shoulders so the union got me my contract. Two of us fought it, both of us got the full time contract. We shouldn’t have had to fight it. I taught full hours that year and every year since.

The government campaign against public servants in the recession and the union campaigns in the early 21st century (yes I acknowledge that) have been successful in removing almost all respect for teaching as a profession. We are vilified in the media, our minister appears to despise us even going so far as suggesting putting unqualified homeowners in classrooms after we have spent thousands and thousands getting the qualifications that the teaching council enforce (not a bad thing in most ways imo). Few want to go into teaching now, and some of those are only in it for the sound bite reason ‘June, July and august’

The education system here is rapidly heading into the failed system of the UK. It’s literally like watching a train crash in slow motion. The NCCA whistleblowers have even come out and said that their work is not well researched. Teachers teaching the specifications have been saying that but NO one will listen. Even when we held lunch time protests about it, the media and public insisted it was about pay and we were greedy. It wasn’t. We were trying to protect student learning. No one listened.

There is initiative after initiative being announced and forced into the schools. We spend more time collecting data than actually doing anything with it. Our school has about 15 different committees running now trying to stay on top of the paperwork. All of this extra work is (largely) voluntary but good will is running out as teachers burn out. It is stark that the extra curricular being run is moving even more towards part timers (looking for permanency) and even PME teachers than ever before. Teachers on full timetables are too bloody tired.

To finish my rant, I don’t know anyone in teaching aged between around 30-50 who isn’t keeping their options open. Management courses that they fully intend to take to other sectors. Upskilling in STEM/technology to potentially move to other industries. Anything that will get them out of the classroom because we can all see the UK style burnout coming. I know I don’t have all my eggs in one basket and have no illusions as to whether being a teacher will still even be considered an profession in ten years when you look at where we are headed

ShowMeTheCash · 29-11-2017 5:16pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Also I think this is disingenuous.
If you had a class of 5 year olds you think it would be equally silly that a female teacher help a little boy go to the loo?

Have you even known a national school teacher who teaches infants or junior infants to be a male?

yes, to the last question.

Well of course you would be one of the few people who knows a male primary school teacher that teaches juniour or senior infants, I literally know no one nor do I know any school that has one. I reckon you would be lucky to find a handful in the entire country!
That being said looking at other forums around this here are some of the commments I have seen.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/1212309-Male-teachers-in-primary-school

"[font=Roboto, sans-serif]My brother is a primary school teacher. Somebody once 'joked' to me that he might therefore be a paedophile [/font] 6.gif.pagespeed.ce.7QCbzgu8RR.gif

[font=Roboto, sans-serif]. FFS!!"[/font]
And again I do not think this is right there is something wrong that elements in society think like this, but you seem to want to deny that anyone does think like this and is therefore not a concern any man you is contemplating being a primary school teacher......

ShowMeTheCash · 29-11-2017 5:16pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Also I think this is disingenuous.
If you had a class of 5 year olds you think it would be equally silly that a female teacher help a little boy go to the loo?

Have you even known a national school teacher who teaches infants or junior infants to be a male?

yes, to the last question.

Well of course you would be one of the few people who knows a male primary school teacher that teaches juniour or senior infants, I literally know no one nor do I know any school that has one. I reckon you would be lucky to find a handful in the entire country!
That being said looking at other forums around this here are some of the commments I have seen.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/1212309-Male-teachers-in-primary-school

"[font=Roboto, sans-serif]My brother is a primary school teacher. Somebody once 'joked' to me that he might therefore be a paedophile [/font] 6.gif.pagespeed.ce.7QCbzgu8RR.gif

[font=Roboto, sans-serif]. FFS!!"[/font]
And again I do not think this is right there is something wrong that elements in society think like this, but you seem to want to deny that anyone does think like this and is therefore not a concern any man you is contemplating being a primary school teacher......

Buford T. Justice XIX · 29-11-2017 5:27pm

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Well of course you would be one of the few people who knows a male primary school teacher that teaches juniour or senior infants, I literally know no one nor do I know any school that has one. I reckon you would be lucky to find a handful in the entire country!
That being said looking at other forums around this here are some of the commments I have seen.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/1212309-Male-teachers-in-primary-school

"[font=Roboto, sans-serif]My brother is a primary school teacher. Somebody once 'joked' to me that he might therefore be a paedophile [/font][font=Roboto, sans-serif]. FFS!!"[/font]
And again I do not think this is right there is something wrong that elements in society think like this, but you seem to want to deny that anyone does think like this and is therefore not a concern any man you is contemplating being a primary school teacher......

My neighbour was a primary school teacher. If he had to carry a child home that was sick or hurt, he would have to take three children in his car, the sick child and two other children so he would never be alone with one child in his car after dropping off the first child.

It is definitely an issue.

nice_guy80 · 29-11-2017 5:27pm

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Well of course you would be one of the few people who knows a male primary school teacher that teaches juniour or senior infants, I literally know no one nor do I know any school that has one. I reckon you would be lucky to find a handful in the entire country!
That being said looking at other forums around this here are some of the commments I have seen.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/1212309-Male-teachers-in-primary-school

"[font=Roboto, sans-serif]My brother is a primary school teacher. Somebody once 'joked' to me that he might therefore be a paedophile [/font][font=Roboto, sans-serif]. FFS!!"[/font]
And again I do not think this is right there is something wrong that elements in society think like this, but you seem to want to deny that anyone does think like this and is therefore not a concern any man you is contemplating being a primary school teacher......

ok, but it kinda makes your other point invalid
plenty of males are or have been infant teachers

mirrorwall has more or less hit the nail on the head
teaching is becoming very frustrating
it is being treated as a business - initiatives, input and results.
primary teaching seems so busy and stressful compared to a decade ago when I started.
more or more being asked of the teaching staff, with less time to do it.

pay doesn't start off great considering all the hoops you've to jump through, doesn't really improve by much over your career and even if you do get into management the pay isn't great for the responsibility needed.

ShowMeTheCash · 29-11-2017 5:32pm

Jake Orange Molecule wrote: »

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

See I am not changing the scenario at all, the original conversion was why men do not teach in national school with very young kids, my original statement was to give at least some weight to the argument men being or feeling uncomfortable due to at a perceived stigma of having to take on an almost parental role like the example you give above such as taking the kids to the loo.

I think that male teachers could worry that people might the get wrong idea around something that is innocent.

It's opinions like yours (and a small minority of people in society) that are perpetuating the fear and "stigma" (there is no stigma imo except in some people's heads). You obviously have a fear of your kids around men, that's quite obvious. This has no basis in anything except some crazy notion that men must want to work with kids for bad reasons. It's absolute bull and thankfully the vast majority of people in the country would not even let it enter their heads that a man can't be in charge of kids on his own.

It's only within a few steps of saying a man can't look after his own child or look after his nieces or nephews alone that's the road we will head down if the opinions you are displaying spread and intensify.

You seem to have this backward maybe try taking a breath and read what I am saying and not what you think I am saying, I personally have no fear of my kids around other men, that being said I mean within reason, I am not totally irrisponsible when it comes to my kids.
The fear I am talking about is being a man being around other peoples kids not a fear of men being around mine. Personally I think this largely has come from feminists over the last number of years demonising men as sexual deviants and arbiters of misogyny.
I already talked about the post about the father and son in the shower when the son was sick and how the internet mostly females when nuts crazed feminists looked at this is some kind of sexual abuse!
What you seem to want to do is deny that this kind of thing happens.
My suggestion to you if you are a women maybe try and liten to the fears some men have and try to understand why.

ShowMeTheCash · 29-11-2017 5:36pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Well of course you would be one of the few people who knows a male primary school teacher that teaches juniour or senior infants, I literally know no one nor do I know any school that has one. I reckon you would be lucky to find a handful in the entire country!
That being said looking at other forums around this here are some of the commments I have seen.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/1212309-Male-teachers-in-primary-school

"[font=Roboto, sans-serif]My brother is a primary school teacher. Somebody once 'joked' to me that he might therefore be a paedophile [/font][font=Roboto, sans-serif]. FFS!!"[/font]
And again I do not think this is right there is something wrong that elements in society think like this, but you seem to want to deny that anyone does think like this and is therefore not a concern any man you is contemplating being a primary school teacher......

ok, but it kinda makes your other point invalid
plenty of males are or have been infant teachers

mirrorwall has more or less hit the nail on the head
teaching is becoming very frustrating
it is being treated as a business - initiatives, input and results.
primary teaching seems so busy and stressful compared to a decade ago when I started.
more or more being asked of the teaching staff, with less time to do it.

pay doesn't start off great considering all the hoops you've to jump through, doesn't really improve by much over your career and even if you do get into management the pay isn't great for the responsibility needed.

How does it make it invalid?
I am not saying there is no male infant teachers at all, I am saying there is nearly no infant teachers.
Between my two kids 3 creches and two primary schools not a single make teacher in any of them.
Come seconday school the numbers shift a little but still very much female dominated.
We are looking to all the reasons why men do not look at teaching as a viable career move.

freshpopcorn · 29-11-2017 5:42pm

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

How does it make it invalid?
I am not saying there is no male infant teachers at all, I am saying there is nearly no infant teachers.
Between my two kids 3 creches and two primary schools not a single make teacher in any of them.
Come seconday school the numbers shift a little but still very much female dominated.
We are looking to all the reasons why men do not look at teaching as a viable career move.

They are lots of reasons in my experience men just don't like the idea of being a room full of screaming children for a day is the main reason.

ShowMeTheCash · 29-11-2017 6:10pm

freshpopcorn wrote: »

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

How does it make it invalid?
I am not saying there is no male infant teachers at all, I am saying there is nearly no infant teachers.
Between my two kids 3 creches and two primary schools not a single make teacher in any of them.
Come seconday school the numbers shift a little but still very much female dominated.
We are looking to all the reasons why men do not look at teaching as a viable career move.

They are lots of reasons in my experience men just don't like the idea of being a room full of screaming children for a day is the main reason.

And?
At no point did anyone argue there wasn't, actually at no point did anyone argue this is even the main reason, but we seem to have some people trying to argue what reasons or concerns men don't have.

evolving_doors · 29-11-2017 7:19pm

Chrongen wrote: »

I don't know when or where the change occurred but in my primary school (2nd to 6th class) out of 21 teachers there was only 1 female.

In my secondary school out of approximately 25 teachers only 4 were females.

At a guess ...your secondary wasnt all girls. And highly competitive in terms of field sports!

29-11-2017 9:48pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

When I finally got my CID, four of us that year, yes FOUR were given a contract of 17hrs 40 so as to avoid paying us full pay. 20 minutes extra on the contract would give full pay and we would teach full hours. Instead ETB tried to shaft us all out of 15% of our contract.

How does that work?

Is it cheaper for the employer to have two part time teachers rather than one full time teacher?

I am not involved in teaching but could never understand why schools offer so many part time roles instead of full time.

ShowMeTheCash · 29-11-2017 10:01pm

salonfire wrote: »

How does that work?

Is it cheaper for the employer to have two part time teachers rather than one full time teacher?

I am not involved in teaching but could never understand why schools offer so many part time roles instead of full time.

Maternity could be a reason?

byhookorbycrook · 29-11-2017 10:12pm

Jake Orange Molecule wrote: »

I do outreach work where I'm around small kids in schools and again it would never even enter my head to be concerned about it. Its worrying over nothing imo.

Did you ever hear of a male teachers life being ruined due to a false accusation? I haven't and you can be sure it would be all over the news if there was an accusation.

Actually, yes I have. The teacher was completely exonerated but many of the parents took the "no smoke without fire" approach, so he retired shortly after.

byhookorbycrook · 29-11-2017 10:15pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

My neighbour was a primary school teacher. If he had to carry a child home that was sick or hurt, he would have to take three children in his car, the sick child and two other children so he would never be alone with one child in his car after dropping off the first child.

It is definitely an issue.

Female teacher here and we do the same.

freshpopcorn · 29-11-2017 10:22pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Female teacher here and we do the same.

Not to derail the thread but does carrying children in your car that you teach increase your insurance much?

29-11-2017 10:53pm

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Not to derail the thread but does carrying children in your car that you teach increase your insurance much?

I'd be amazed if any teachers declares this, I'd even argue it doesn't need to be any more than giving your kids friends a lift.

freshpopcorn · 29-11-2017 11:04pm

Jake Orange Molecule wrote: »

I'd be amazed of any teachers declares this, I'd even argue it doesn't need to be any more than giving your kids friends a lift.

I know teachers who used drive kids and it used not be an issue up until a few years ago but then insurances companies started adding a loading for carrying children/driving whilst at work. They could lie about the it but most I've spoken to say if anything went wrong and they weren't covered it would be a lot of hassle so they simply don't drive children anymore unless they pay the extra amount.
I've even heard of Boards of Managements telling staff not to drive kids because of it.

mirrorwall14 · 29-11-2017 11:09pm

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Maternity could be a reason?

We weren’t all female, nor all in relationships or even in the same subject fields so not maternity anyways. I’ve no idea considering part time was not the norm in years gone past. I believe it’s
A) more part time teachers = more extra curricular and yes men teachers desperate for full time

laziness to organise a timetable around full time staff
C) complete lack of awareness, empathy or acknowledgement for the consequences of part time employment on staff both financially and in other ways

spurious · 29-11-2017 11:13pm

salonfire wrote: »

How does that work?

Is it cheaper for the employer to have two part time teachers rather than one full time teacher?

I am not involved in teaching but could never understand why schools offer so many part time roles instead of full time.

Keep them keen.
Part-time year after year and your money stays the same. If you had a contract of some sort you would get increments. One senior wholetime teacher retiring and being replaced by three part timers could save a lot of money.

"Maybe next year they will give me more hours if I say I will stay behind unpaid and organise x, y, z." You should see the amount of extra work some unfortunates take on. Scandalous.

29-11-2017 11:28pm

freshpopcorn wrote: »

They are lots of reasons in my experience men just don't like the idea of being a room full of screaming children for a day is the main reason.

I worked as a kindergarten teacher abroad, and it was a lot of fun. So much fun that I did it for three years afterward, and actually got a child psychology diploma to help my teaching. I did try to get kinder jobs here in Ireland when I returned, but no joy there. Even though they were crying out for teachers, the jobs were usually filled by a female teacher a few weeks later or left vacant. I don't recall seeing any of the jobs being filled by another male teacher.

I've since revised my original plan of kinder teaching from perspectives by family members who do teach at kinder and primary levels. It's just too damn 'dangerous'. There's little demand for male teachers at those levels because of the public perception of abuse towards children by men or priests. Oh, sure, there are anti-discrimination laws, but you're never given your gender as a reason for refusal. Instead, it's a non-committal response, wait by the phone and the job is taken later by a female. I went through that 12 times before I went looking elsewhere for work.

Perhaps it's different at secondary levels. I suspect it is... Although everything points to horrible working conditions outside of the normal job requirements, and university positions are well saturated.

evolving_doors · 29-11-2017 11:36pm

salonfire wrote: »

How does that work?

Is it cheaper for the employer to have two part time teachers rather than one full time teacher?

I am not involved in teaching but could never understand why schools offer so many part time roles instead of full time.

1. Schools are assigned a certain amount of teacher posts. So say there was a teacher going on job share and there were 11 hrs available, you can't advertise a full time permanent job. (as a very basic example).

2.In terms of 'so many part time'. It's down to teachers taking leave for whatever reason (Maternity leave, Sick leave, Secondment to work for the DEPT, Career Break, gone AWOL !!!).

3. As the numbers of female teachers are high then maternity leave, parental leave, job share is more common. In my experience of teaching i've never come across male teachers who take parental leave or jobshare, although I presume it happens. (Don't get me wrong either... parental leave etc is necessary and should be open to all workers).

4. Also permanent teachers retiring (or leaving) might have had 2 subjects.So the school might decide to kill off those hours and reassign them to another subject.. hence more part time.

5. It suits some schools to have as many hungry part-timers as possible, as they'll be stabbing each other in the back just on the whiff of a promise of fulltime hours. It makes it a piece of cake for timetabling too.

6. "cheaper for the employer "... doesn't cost the employer a cent.

Actually it's not that far off from zero hours contracts in Dunnes Stores. Except it rolls on from year to year rather than week to week.

freshpopcorn · 29-11-2017 11:37pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Perhaps it's different at secondary levels. I suspect it is... Although everything points to horrible working conditions outside of the normal job requirements, and university positions are well saturated.

The guys who I knew who wanted to be teachers were fine with older kids 5th/6th class but they just couldn't bare to be with younger kids. They were fine with pay/etc. I'm just bashing it on people I know. I know a good few teachers. Awkward
parents are another issue.
I know of two local primary principals who only wanted to take on a male teacher hoping it with deal with the fighting in the staff room.

ShowMeTheCash · 29-11-2017 11:48pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We weren’t all female, nor all in relationships or even in the same subject fields so not maternity anyways. I’ve no idea considering part time was not the norm in years gone past. I believe it’s
A) more part time teachers = more extra curricular and yes men teachers desperate for full time
laziness to organise a timetable around full time staff
C) complete lack of awareness, empathy or acknowledgement for the consequences of part time employment on staff both financially and in other ways

Was not suggesting the only reason but there must be a % out there somewhere.

I remember my secondary school, my French teacher was really there for 1 year in the 5 years I was at that school, she simply had kids back to back.

I know of few temp teachers right now who currently are looking a full time role so they can start a family.

One eyed Jack · 29-11-2017 11:52pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

Actually it's not that far off from zero hours contracts in Dunnes Stores. Except it rolls on from year to year rather than week to week.

Could you explain the idea behind 'co-location' of teachers? It's something I've come across recently where I thought there must be some advantage to it in that a teacher in one day could have to travel between three different schools in the area. I just can't think of any advantage to anyone except that they may actually prefer variety in their working day?

29-11-2017 11:54pm

freshpopcorn wrote: »

The guys who I knew who wanted to be teachers were fine with older kids 5th/6th class but they just couldn't bare to be with younger kids. They were fine with pay/etc. I'm just bashing it on people I know. I know a good few teachers. Awkward
parents are another issue.

My parents were both teachers. My mother was a primary school principal and my father an Irish teacher in a secondary school. My sister is a primary school teacher. So you can guess I know plenty of teachers too.

I know of two local primary principals who only wanted to take on a male teacher hoping it with deal with the fighting in the staff room.

I know nothing about that. I've taught in kinder, primary and third level abroad. The stress and hard work of teaching doesn't bother me. I've done it before. And honestly, it's hardly worse than dealing with abusive customers in credit control.

Although, Kinder is definitely high energy work and requires finely tuned empathy.

Nah. Those male teachers I do know, they're becoming more and more uncomfortable with being a male teacher around children (regardless of age or gender). It's a social pressure brought about by parents, the media etc. I know three male teachers who left schools they loved and switched to sales because they don't feel any real security. Not job security, but that they won't be fingered for some innocent gesture or remark. They weren't that afraid of being found guilty exactly, but they understood that any accusation would finish their lives at home.

mirrorwall14 · 30-11-2017 12:09am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Could you explain the idea behind 'co-location' of teachers? It's something I've come across recently where I thought there must be some advantage to it in that a teacher in one day could have to travel between three different schools in the area. I just can't think of any advantage to anyone except that they may actually prefer variety in their working day?

As far as I’m aware this is really someone trying to get a full time job. I don’t know anyone doing collocation because they want to. They’re doing it so that between the hotch potch of hours they are getting a full pay cheque as opposed to part time

mirrorwall14 · 30-11-2017 12:15am

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Was not suggesting the only reason but there must be a % out there somewhere.

I remember my secondary school, my French teacher was really there for 1 year in the 5 years I was at that school, she simply had kids back to back.

I know of few temp teachers right now who currently are looking a full time role so they can start a family.

To be fair if you think about it, that teacher would have been full time for probably 30 solid years after that. I don’t think it’s fair to judge someone for having kids, same thing happens in every profession. Nor would I judge someone for wanting to be full time and CID’d before taking maternity. It’s good sense to want some security for your family before you have kids. And don’t get me started on the judgement for ‘Timing it’. We can have all the plans in the world to maximise maternity (who wouldn’t to be fair) but conceiving is odds on 30% in a perfectly timed month so it doesn’t always work like that. I miscarried a baby that would have been ‘perfect’ timing from a leave perspective and haven’t managed to conceive since. If I happen to get pregnant again and it is good timing I know there will be those saying ‘look at her timing it’ when the reality is I have been trying for 8 cycles now with no success and I wouldn’t give a crap when a baby was due leave wise.... and deep breaths and get off your hobby horse ðŸ˜‚

Although i’ll Take the point that in a female dominated profession maternity is obviously more common. I’ll just argue that it’s one period in a 40 year career

jimbobaloobob · 30-11-2017 12:27am

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I miscarried a baby that would have been ‘perfect’ timing from a leave perspective and haven’t managed to conceive since. If I happen to get pregnant again and it is good timing I know there will be those saying ‘look at her timing it’ when the reality is I have been trying for 8 cycles now with no success and I wouldn’t give a crap when a baby was due leave wise.... and deep breaths and get off your hobby horse &#55357;&#56834;

I hope you will be successful soon. Thoughts your way.

On another note reading through the posts here i think its a sad reflection on society that male teachers feel that the fear of accusation isn't worth the love of a profession.

mirrorwall14 · 30-11-2017 12:40am

jimbobaloobob wrote: »

I hope you will be successful soon. Thoughts your way.

On another note reading through the posts here i think its a sad reflection on society that male teachers feel that the fear of accusation isn't worth the love of a profession.

Thanks.

And I completely agree. I know a few male teacher in primary teacher training and it would make me very sad to see them leave teaching (excellent ones with a love of it) because of this kind of fear

ShowMeTheCash · 30-11-2017 12:43am

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

To be fair if you think about it, that teacher would have been full time for probably 30 solid years after that. I don’t think it’s fair to judge someone for having kids, same thing happens in every profession. Nor would I judge someone for wanting to be full time and CID’d before taking maternity. It’s good sense to want some security for your family before you have kids. And don’t get me started on the judgement for ‘Timing it’. We can have all the plans in the world to maximise maternity (who wouldn’t to be fair) but conceiving is odds on 30% in a perfectly timed month so it doesn’t always work like that. I miscarried a baby that would have been ‘perfect’ timing from a leave perspective and haven’t managed to conceive since. If I happen to get pregnant again and it is good timing I know there will be those saying ‘look at her timing it’ when the reality is I have been trying for 8 cycles now with no success and I wouldn’t give a crap when a baby was due leave wise.... and deep breaths and get off your hobby horse &#55357;&#56834;

Although i’ll Take the point that in a female dominated profession maternity is obviously more common. I’ll just argue that it’s one period in a 40 year career

I do not understand why an observation quickly becomes a judgement, we where talking about why there are so many temps vs full teachers.
Temps in many professions are usually used to cover full time staff that will be returning two biggest factors are sickness and maternity.

Again the "timing" is not a judgement it is an observation, two things a lot of people do not do before they become full-time in any profession 1. have kids 2. buy a house.

I suggest deep breaths maybe try and stop being so defensive.

But lets say 30 years of working, you have 10 female teachers. I am not sure the whole 2.4 children thing is still the average but for argument sake let say it is. 24 kids which could see a teacher out for an entire year?

24 years of the 30 years you will need at least 1 temp for every 10.

mirrorwall14 · 30-11-2017 1:34am

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I do not understand why an observation quickly becomes a judgement, we where talking about why there are so many temps vs full teachers.
Temps in many professions are usually used to cover full time staff that will be returning two biggest factors are sickness and maternity.

Again the "timing" is not a judgement it is an observation, two things a lot of people do not do before they become full-time in any profession 1. have kids 2. buy a house.

I suggest deep breaths maybe try and stop being so defensive.

But lets say 30 years of working, you have 10 female teachers. I am not sure the whole 2.4 children thing is still the average but for argument sake let say it is. 24 kids which could see a teacher out for an entire year?

24 years of the 30 years you will need at least 1 temp for every 10.

I literally wrote ‘deep breaths’ in my post

It’s a decent argument in terms of temps but it’s not near the reality. In my seven years part time I never covered maternity hours for example. Maternity leaves were part and parcel of teaching long before the ‘hours’ culture came in.

Now to try and turn off my silly insomniac brain for the third time tonight and get some sleep

SterlingArcher · 30-11-2017 2:22am

Permabear wrote: »

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Not only that op. The government has set up a new equality justice league. That are now going to tackle the issue of yes yes too many pesky male professors.

Yes the drive for less of the best person for the job and more " hey we are right on". will be coming to a university near you. That's right the the irony of an all female "equality justice league" has been lost on all in government. Yayyy awesome. ignore all complexity in any given situation for a simple 50/50. Till of course it becomes 70/30 female to male then it's cool that isn't an issue....

Warning do not ask the " equality " justice league why it is imperative to focus on female to male ratio. But never the other way around i.e your topic. The word "equality" has been officially hijacked.

30-11-2017 7:51am

Permabear wrote: »

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So I had a little time to look more into this research. There are a few things that jump out at me pretty quickly.

Firstly then report does not suggest that the gender influence is across the board. Rather it affects certain subjects. As the Washington post says "raised the achievement of girls and lowered that of boys in science, social studies and English.". What about the other subjects?

Another thing that jumps out is a lot of the conclusions are based on "self-reported perceptions by teachers and students" which does not strike me as a good thing. There are plenty of better methodologies than basing things on self reported perceptions.

Under the banner of self reported perceptions a line like "For example, with a female teacher, boys were more likely to be seen as disruptive. Girls were less likely to be considered inattentive or disorderly." becomes a little more problematic for me. This sounds like the gender bias of the teachers in question - more than any objective actual differences in behaviours caused by the gender of the teachers.

Other similarly worrying lines from the paper that jump out at me that could distort results are things like " in general, female teachers are less likely to be assigned to high-achieving classes" and "female math teachers are roughly 5 to 6 percentage points less likely to say their class achieves at a higher level relative to others at the school.".

Interesting too the people who are not buying into the study or it's conclusions. A president of the "National Women's Law Center, which works to advance the progress of women." finds the conclusions "far from convincing" and that the paper was "questionable and inconsistent".

What also strikes me from the self reporting is that girls with male science teachers report themselves to be less likely to think science useful for their future. That could be unpacked without thinking that girls need female science teachers. Rather than requiring a female teacher, perhaps having a female teacher is just _one_ way in which a girl can be shown women in science.

Perhaps, in other words, what is required in teaching is to modify teaching and curriculum content to not just feed the information to students about a subject, but to actually expose them to testimony and pictures and evidences of that subject being relevant to and containing people of both genders in that field.

For example if a science teacher was showing videos like this one here to their students - of both genders - would we be giving a good impression of the role of women in science?

So in short I think not only is the paper a little iffy as to what it says and what it implies - but I also think where the effects observed are actually real they go much deeper and further than the mere gender of the teacher directly in front of them. It in fact goes to the material presented - how a given subject is represented - and how already existing societal gender biases affect the student before - during - and after class time.

Correlations can be unpacked - distilled - and acted upon without the simple assumption that assigning boys to men - and girls to women - is the fix all solution the study implies it is.

I am also not sure exactly what part of the paper the news article was talking about when it referred to "4%".

Permabear · 30-11-2017 9:46am

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30-11-2017 10:26am

Permabear wrote: »

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Absolutely agree - which is why I merely noted her voice was interesting. I did not draw any implications other than that. It was but a tiny side note in the greater post.

Your quote from Alan Smithers is more in my line of thinking. That a mix of teachers is useful. I would myself extend that past gender diversity too. I think there are other diversities any given school would benefit from on top of that.

But as I said my two main issues with this study is firstly the nature of self reporting in much of it and secondly the instant leap from correlation to a direct causation that the article about the report suggests.

I think there is more than merely diversifying the teaching quota that needs to be played into here. Rather there is a greater issue around gender that comes into play.

I think the example I gave is worth repeating. If girls having a female teacher makes science feel more relevant and useful to them for their future then _why is that_ exactly?

IF it is solely because seeing a woman at the front of the class makes the girls think that women are relevant in science then the way to address that in girls with a male science teacher would not be merely to assign them a female one - or to worry about gender quotas.

No - the solution _there_ would be to present the material in such a way as to represent the genders well in it. To show gender relevance of science as an integrated part of the material and the delivery of the material.

This is how to make such studies useful for me. A study that merely shows some performance correlation with students and the gender of their teacher is entirely useless. Distilling out _why_ that variance occurs and then finding ways not just to counter act it but go even better than counter acting it is where utility would come from.

Merely worrying about gender diversity in the teaching staff therefore would seem more like a knee jerk quick fix solution/reaction rather than sitting back and saying "Ok why might this be - and are there solutions that might go one better than the obvious fixes?"

I think we are on the same page with gender sterotyping though. That tendency we have both noted of teachers putting more negative relative judgements on the "other" genders is something that should be addressed in itself - rather than the mere assumption that therefore such kids would do better with teachers of their own gender.

So yes I think there are issues here for sure - but the issues and their fixes are much deeper and complex than the news paper article would leave a reader thinking.

One eyed Jack · 30-11-2017 10:32am

Permabear wrote: »

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I think I understand where you're coming from PB, and the issue isn't one so much of gender equality, as opposed to gender representation, and providing role models for young boys. If they are inspired by male teachers who encourage them in school, they are more likely to want to emulate that experience as adults themselves for the next generation.

The issue of representation has come up time and time again in many areas and this is where the liberal left as you observed in your post does an awkward shuffle and remains silent on the issue, because to acknowledge it would mean that they would also have to acknowledge the fact that for Muslim students for example, they have very little representation in the teaching profession in Ireland. I can't find the article on the Irish Times website now, but it was an interesting piece from a teacher who is Muslim, teaching in a school in Ireland, and she made the same point about the lack of representation for young Muslim students in Irish schools.

Given the way the Irish system of education in particular is almost unique in it's lack of diversity and representation of minorities, and this does spill over into the gender debate on the lack of male role models in teaching in Ireland, it's hardly a surprise to anyone, or rather it shouldn't be, that because of the influence of women in liberal academia which influences policy on education, we would tend to see policies implemented which favour outcomes for young girls, and young boys are expected to model the behaviour of young girls, as to do otherwise is an expression of their "toxic masculinity".

Basically identity politics has seeped into the discourse around Irish education, where it appears that education means a number of different things to different people, and they are more concerned with representation in education than they are interested in academic education.

It's something I don't see being addressed any time soon tbh, but whether it's a problem or not, depends upon which side of the fence you're on, and indeed whether you consider it a worthwhile endeavour to fight for representation amongst all the other competing stakeholders in education. It's one of the reasons why more and more people are opting for home schooling their children, and it's fast becoming a more popular choice for parents in Ireland too.

c_man · 30-11-2017 10:34am

Chrongen wrote: »

I don't know when or where the change occurred but in my primary school (2nd to 6th class) out of 21 teachers there was only 1 female.

In my secondary school out of approximately 25 teachers only 4 were females.

I didn't have a male teacher until I was in second year of secondary school.

newport2 · 30-11-2017 10:38am

I remember reading this article. Interesting.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/the-gender-gap-why-do-boys-do-worse-than-girls-at-school-1.1591232

"The recent study, at the University of Kent, revealed that boys are falling behind girls because they are constantly being told they are not up to scratch. The research, which involved about 600 children aged four to 10, found that boys felt their teachers and parents did not expect them to do as well as girls, and lost their motivation or confidence as a result.
Tests showed belief in their own academic inferiority could translate into lower school grades among boys. The results, published in the Child Development journal, showed that by the time boys are seven years old they equate girls with higher achievement at school. Girls believe they are higher achievers by the time they have reached the age of four."

“Our research showed that from the age of four, girls thought they were better than boys at school, believing they understood their work better, did better, were more motivated and better behaved. From the age of seven, boys rated themselves collectively as worse than girls."

"“In a follow-up study,” she says, “we showed that when children were reminded of this stereotype and asked to sit a test of reading, writing and maths, boys did worse compared to a control group of similar boys who were not reminded of the stereotype.
“Girls were not affected by being reminded that they were expected to be better than boys; that is, they didn’t get better. In a second follow-up experiment, we told children that girls and boys were expected to do equally well. This made boys do better and didn’t affect girls; that is, they didn’t get worse.”"

Permabear · 30-11-2017 11:27am

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Cienciano · 30-11-2017 11:39am

I had women teachers throughout primary school and it didn't do me any harm. Now, where did I leave my panties?

valoren · 30-11-2017 11:58am

Thinking about this and the point that there is no motivation for people in STEM subjects to actually teach due to the low pay. Taking something like Physics for example, there is a chance for them to give back and they don't actually need to be in the same country to teach someone. When time allows I watch youtube videos by someone called DrPhysicsA. He is an English guy who takes the A level and GCSE curriculum and goes through it with enthusiasm, infectious passion and makes some difficult material accessible, friendly and understandable. One of the prevailing types of comments on these videos are from people thanking him and saying they'd learned more in such 5 minutes than weeks in the class rooms, that they wish they had him as their teacher. For me that's telling. If you were to watch and study each video you could realistically get an A but you'd also maintain an active interest and enthusiasm for it because such people delivering the content love what they do.

Why not leverage that? Why have teachers assigned to Physics for example who for all intents and purposes have zero interest and zero passion and see that affect the students? Where is the equivalent of such videos for the Junior and Leaving Cert? We are now in a digital age and have access to all of these passionate people. Perhaps the Dept of Education could hire such people to create content based on the courses? And not simply giving a paying gig to some bore who says 1+1 =2 but someone who fosters interest by saying 1 + 1 = 2, isn't that incredible!?

There would then be no need for such people to see teaching as a career choice. It would be them giving back. And as it is on Youtube it can also be monetised which in itself is thinking outside the classroom. And this would apply to all subjects too obviously. While these videos present the material, someone who actually physically teaches can then leverage these videos and go through them as per normal.

Are too many teachers women?

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