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Would Ireland follow Europe's Lead in Aborting the Huge Majority of Down Syndrome Pos

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    #962
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,352 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    end of the road wrote: »


    the money will have to come from elsewhere, unless we are increasing taxes. there is no evidence abortion on demand will cut the wellfare bill.


    your ignorance of basic mathematics is shocking. the cost of an abortion prior to 16 weeks is the cost of a pill. I'm not sure how exactly much that pill costs but it is in the 10's of euros not 100's. post 16 weeks it is a day procedure or possibly an overnight. the cost to the state of not having that abortion is the full cost of pre-natal and post-natal care for that child. plus the cost of childrens allowance for the following 18 years. plus the cost of educating that child. somehow you think these costs do not outweigh the costs of a pill or a day procedure.


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    #963
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    end of the road wrote: »


    we can safely say the tax payer will be paying.

    Yes, but not extra, like you keep saying.


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    #964
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    January wrote: »
    There's no evidence to suggest that if abortion 'on demand' (as you like to describe it) is introduced into this country that your taxes will rise. You are just assuming that you'll have to pay for it.
    Isn't the evidence actually to the contrary? That a once-off payment for an abortion is less expensive to the tax payer than paying child benefit for 16 years?
    end of the road wrote: »
    i'm not denying them anything. i don't make the rules.

    But you support them. You support ill women having to carry a pregnancy until their illness becomes terminal because they cannot get an abortion in this country and the medication may harm the foetus.
    end of the road wrote: »
    that's not what is happening.
    Yes it is. This is the Irish solution to the problem of Irish women with unwanted pregnancies: go to England or get fcked. The problem is exported at a rate of thousands of women a year.


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    #965
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    January wrote: »
    Abortion is a medical procedure. There are medical and surgical abortions. Stop describing the abortions that are performed in Ireland under the POLDPA as 'medical' abortions, they are just abortions. Medical is induced via pills, surgical is, well, surgical. But they are all abortions none the less.


    the type of abortions that are necessary are performed in ireland. the type that for the most part aren't, well, aren't.
    January wrote: »
    Yes, but not extra, like you keep saying.

    i will still be paying. it's not my job to pay for it.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #966
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    end of the road wrote: »
    i will still be paying. it's not my job to pay for it.

    So you'd rather pay thousands for child support than €50 for a tablet?


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    #967
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    kylith wrote: »
    Yes it is. This is the Irish solution to the problem of Irish women with unwanted pregnancies: go to England or get fcked. The problem is exported at a rate of thousands of women a year.

    it's not. if you want an abortion on demand you have to go elsewhere. there are important treatments that should be caried out here that aren't. abortion on demand doesn't even come close.
    kylith wrote: »
    So you'd rather pay thousands for child support than €50 for a tablet?

    ireland needs a population growth and more workers in the future.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #968
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    end of the road wrote: »
    the type of abortions that are necessary are performed in ireland. the type that for the most part aren't, well, aren't.



    Necessary in your opinion, you claim people are twisting your words here, what is actually happening is you're clever enough to word your posts so that you don't think you are as cold hearted as you are actually coming across here.

    Why should it be up to you or anybody else except for a woman and her doctor to decide how necessary her abortion is?


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    #969
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    kylith wrote: »
    So you'd rather pay thousands for child support than €50 for a tablet?

    Yes, because we must protect the unborn, despite the fact that the unborn cannot develop without the mother's body it doesn't matter what the mother wants, she is irrelevant. Its wrong because its just wrong, he's a republican and it isn't needed in his country, sure they can just go to the UK except for when they can't, its unfortunate that these kids will be born unwanted and possibly into poverty and neglect but hey ho, such is life.
    Just saved you some typing there, EOTR.


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    #970
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Pretty much all the maternity hospitals stock at least misoprostol if not also mifepristone for the medical management of miscarriages anyway. The extra costs associated with early medical abortion are absolutely minimal.


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    #971
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #972
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    Pretty much all the maternity hospitals stock at least misoprostol if not also mifepristone for the medical management of miscarriages anyway. The extra costs associated with early medical abortion are absolutely minimal.

    Ah yeah but sure we're going to need extra for this huge rush of women who will be demanding abortions once we have legislation for it here, that's gonna cost loads, isn't it? Sure I don't want to pay for that, sure why should I? Those women shouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place if they didn't want a baby. Silly women.


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    #973
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    January wrote: »
    Necessary in your opinion, you claim people are twisting your words here, what is actually happening is you're clever enough to word your posts so that you don't think you are as cold hearted as you are actually coming across here.

    Why should it be up to you or anybody else except for a woman and her doctor to decide how necessary her abortion is?


    i have a duty to insure and support the protection, as much as is practical, the life of the unborn. i'm not cold hearted at all, but i have my viewpoint and i will not be apologizing for it.
    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Yes, because we must protect the unborn, despite the fact that the unborn cannot develop without the mother's body it doesn't matter what the mother wants, she is irrelevant. Its wrong because its just wrong, he's a republican and it isn't needed in his country, sure they can just go to the UK except for when they can't, its unfortunate that these kids will be born unwanted and possibly into poverty and neglect but hey ho, such is life.
    Just saved you some typing there, EOTR.

    you haven't saved me typing as i never stated any such thing.
    you and a couple of others are the one making up things, trying to make up some kind of bogy man to fit your agenda. it's shameful

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #974
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Yes, because we must protect the unborn, despite the fact that the unborn cannot develop without the mother's body it doesn't matter what the mother wants, she is irrelevant. Its wrong because its just wrong, he's a republican and it isn't needed in his country, sure they can just go to the UK except for when they can't, its unfortunate that these kids will be born unwanted and possibly into poverty and neglect but hey ho, such is life.
    Just saved you some typing there, EOTR.
    Well, women have to be obliged to have children they don't want and can't afford so that their children can pay for EotR's pension, don't you know.

    In the context of the OP of this thread, EotR, considering that people with DS will never be able to contribute to the coffers, do you think that it's still logical for women to be forced to carry to term a foetus who will cost the taxpayer hundreds of thousands of euro in care rather than fund a one-off termination for a few hundred euro*?

    *surgical terminations being more expensive than medical ones**

    **A medical termination being one that is brought about by medication not one that is needed for medical reasons, which can't be gotten in this country unless there is an immediate threat to the mother's life***, since there seems to be some confusion about these terms.

    ***And even then only sometimes *cough*CorpseOnLifeSupport*cough*


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    #975
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    end of the road wrote: »
    you haven't saved me typing as i never stated any such thing. you are the one making up things to fit your agenda. it's shameful how you are trying to make me into this bogy man that you want to exist.

    I am doing no such thing, you have used all of those point plus various others (just put them up for adoption, etc) in support of not allowing abortion in this country. I could quote them if you wish because they are there for all to read.


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    #976
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    kylith wrote: »
    Well, women have to be obliged to have children they don't want and can't afford so that their children can pay for EotR's pension, don't you know.

    In the context of the OP of this thread, EotR, considering that people with DS will never be able to contribute to the coffers, do you think that it's still logical for women to be forced to carry to term a foetus who will cost the taxpayer hundreds of thousands of euro in care rather than fund a one-off termination for a few hundred euro*?

    *surgical terminations being more expensive than medical ones.


    the unborn with ds have a right to live.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #977
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    end of the road wrote: »
    the unborn with ds have a right to live.

    Why?


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    #978
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    I am doing no such thing, you have used all of those point plus various others (just put them up for adoption, etc) in support of not allowing abortion in this country. I could quote them if you wish because they are there for all to read.


    no you are twisting what is being said by me to fit a an idea of what you wanted me to have said. you aren't the only one at it to be fair.
    kylith wrote: »
    Why?


    because they are human life and humans have a right to live. we don't have the right to take a life bar ultra-extreme circumstances.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #979
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    end of the road wrote: »
    no you are twisting what is being said by me to fit a an idea of what you wanted me to have said. you aren't the only one at it to be fair.
    You cleverly word your posts so that you can claim people are twisting your words and misinterpreting you.

    because they are human life and humans have a right to live.
    Except for if the woman can afford to travel.
    we don't have the right to take a life bar ultra-extreme circumstances.

    So poverty isn't an ultra-extreme circumstance to you?


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    #980
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    end of the road wrote: »
    because they are human life and humans have a right to live. we don't have the right to take a life bar ultra-extreme circumstances.

    But it's ok for it to happen in England? Or is that just foetuses that don't have DS? Cos you don't want to pay for it.

    Would you not consider a life of pain, operations, severe mental delay, heart problems, incontinence, issues with anger and frustration, and an inability to communicate as an extreme circumstance? Why would you want anyone to live a life of suffering just so you can feel good about yourself for 'protecting' them from being spared that?


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    #981
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    kylith wrote: »
    But it's ok for it to happen in England? Or is that just foetuses that don't have DS? Cos you don't want to pay for it.

    Would you not consider a life of pain, operations, severe mental delay, heart problems, incontinence, issues with anger and frustration, and an inability to communicate as an extreme circumstance? Why would you want anyone to live a life of suffering just so you can feel good about yourself for 'protecting' them from being spared that?


    the unborn and people have a right to live. people suffering hardship is sad but at the end of the day if we allow abortion on demand, then there will be unborn with ds who may live a mostly functioning life who will be murdered.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #982
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    end of the road wrote: »
    the unborn and people have a right to live. people suffering hardship is sad but at the end of the day if we allow abortion on demand, then there will be unborn with ds who may live a mostly functioning life who will be murdered.

    What about the relatives who have to dedicate their lives to caring for these "mostly functioning" disabled people? Do they not have rights too?


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    #983
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    end of the road wrote: »
    the unborn and people have a right to live. people suffering hardship is sad but at the end of the day if we allow abortion on demand, then there will be unborn with ds who may live a mostly functioning life who will be murdered.

    Murder and abortion are not the same things.


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    #984
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    end of the road wrote: »
    the unborn and people have a right to live. people suffering hardship is sad but at the end of the day if we allow abortion on demand, then there will be unborn with ds who may live a mostly functioning life who will be murdered.

    So, parents have to be heartbroken, and who knows how many people live in suffering, on the offchance that a few will be high functioning enough to hold menial jobs? Why have so many suffer hardship when they don't have to?

    And it's not murder. Even if a woman in this country procured an abortion and then went to the Gardaí and confessed she would not be charged with murder. And if it's not murder in law then that tells us one of two things: either the state does not consider a foetus alive, or they do not consider them human.


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    #985
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    What about the relatives who have to dedicate their lives to caring for these "mostly functioning" disabled people? Do they not have rights too?


    they have rights. but for someone with a disability not to be born, isn't a right.
    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    Murder and abortion are not the same things.

    i believe abortion on demand to be murder so they are the same to me.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #986
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    kylith wrote: »
    So, parents have to be heartbroken, and who knows how many people live in suffering, on the offchance that a few will be high functioning enough to hold menial jobs? Why have so many suffer hardship when they don't have to?

    you don't have the right to kill the unborn bar ultra-extreme circumstances.
    kylith wrote: »
    And it's not murder. Even if a woman in this country procured an abortion and then went to the Gardaí and confessed she would not be charged with murder. And if it's not murder in law then that tells us one of two things: either the state does not consider a foetus alive, or they do not consider them human.

    it is murder. however the state can only protect the life of the unborn as much as is practical. the state recognises the right to life of the unborn.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #987
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    end of the road wrote: »
    they have rights. but for someone with a dasibility not to be born, isn't a right.



    i believe abortion on demand to be murder so they are the same to me.

    Yes but they have legal definitions, words have actual meanings, you don't just get to assign new meanings to them yourself and maintain a stance that you are right about them.


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    #988
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    end of the road wrote: »

    i believe abortion on demand to be murder so they are the same to me.
    You can believe what you like. I don't believe it's murder. Why should your belief trump mine? Why should women be ridden roughshod over by your beliefs? Why should you be allowed to force your beliefs onto those who don't share them?


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    #989
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    kylith wrote: »
    You can believe what you like. I don't believe it's murder. Why should your belief trump mine? Why should women be ridden roughshod over by your beliefs? Why should you be allowed to force your beliefs onto those who don't share them?

    nobody is been ridden roughshot over. i'm not forcing anything on anyone. the state has a duty to protect as much as is practical, the right to the life of the unborn to insure as much as is practical, that the right to life is upheld. i agree with that stance and support it.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #990
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    end of the road wrote: »
    the unborn and people have a right to live. people suffering hardship is sad but at the end of the day if we allow abortion on demand, then there will be unborn with ds who may live a mostly functioning life who will be murdered.

    You've been posing this same argument for the past (what is it now?) two weeks?
    Looks like your position hasn't budged in any sense. If nothing else I admire your persistence.


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    #991
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    end of the road wrote: »
    they have rights. but for someone with a disability not to be born, isn't a right.

    You didn't answer my question at all. What is your position on the suffering and sacrifice of families who have to care for these "mostly functioning" disabled children and adults? Better yet, what is your position on those who look after the severely disabled and barely functioning children and adults?
    And please don't reply with the unborn right to life spiel. I want to know your opinion on how these families rights are restricted by caring for their disabled relatives.
    Because I can already tell your response is going to be along the lines of "its unfortunate but there is help available from the government, the help isn't good and needs improvement but it doesn't matter, some bit of help is there so you can't complain".... :rolleyes:


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