Would Ireland follow Europe's Lead in Aborting the Huge Majority of Down Syndrome Pos

Hooks Golf Handicap

A non-invasive test for Down Syndrome is now being offered by public health care in some Northern European countries.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/down-syndrome-ireland-blasts-prenatal-testing-34969733.html

This improves on previous methods of testing as being non-intrusive & 99% accurate.

Now we all like to think of ourselves as loving beings but what are the facts so far with parents receiving the prognosis.

In Iceland 100% of parents opted to abort
https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/babies-with-down-syndrome-deserve-love-not-eradication

In Denamrk that figure is 98%
http://www.lifenews.com/2017/03/28/denmark-wants-total-elimination-of-people-with-down-syndrome-aborts-98-of-babies/

In the Uk that figure is at 90% of those who have the test
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37500189

I'm interested if firstly this test would be accepted in Ireland & if it were then what would our respective termination figure be.
Us Irish have a long & proud history on how we accept & view people with down syndrome so could we be a special case & break the trend.

Gerrup Outta Dat!

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

A non-invasive test for Down Syndrome is now being offered by public health care in some Northern European countries.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/down-syndrome-ireland-blasts-prenatal-testing-34969733.html

This improves on previous methods of testing as being non-intrusive & 99% accurate.

Now we all like to think of ourselves as loving beings but what are the facts so far with parents receiving the prognosis.

In Iceland 100% of parents opted to abort
https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/babies-with-down-syndrome-deserve-love-not-eradication

In Denamrk that figure is 98%
http://www.lifenews.com/2017/03/28/denmark-wants-total-elimination-of-people-with-down-syndrome-aborts-98-of-babies/

In the Uk that figure is at 90% of those who have the test
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37500189

I'm interested if firstly this test would be accepted in Ireland & if it were then what would our respective termination figure be.
Us Irish have a long & proud history on how we accept & view people with down syndrome so could we be a special case & break the trend.

Hitler would be proud.

sbsquarepants

Godwin'd in the very first reply.

Impressive!

.......

This post has been deleted.

Grayson

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2803834/I-wish-d-aborted-son-ve-spent-47-years-caring-s-shocking-admission-read-judge.html

You should also read that.

Wombatman

The Genocide of Down Syndrome children in Nothern Europe, perhaps coming soon

You have to be born and grow a bit to qualify as a child. Could you change the red top headline please.

Hooks Golf Handicap

Grayson wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2803834/I-wish-d-aborted-son-ve-spent-47-years-caring-s-shocking-admission-read-judge.html

You should also read that.

That's a real walk in my shoes eye opener, very brave lady

Hector Savage

How is it genocide if its an early pregnancy termination ?
No one is forcing the woman to have an abortion - her body, her choice .

amcalester

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Godwin'd in the very first reply.

Impressive!

Same poster Godwined his own thread in the title before.

Shurimgreat

I'd imagine its a very tough decision for potential parents and one they don't take lightly. However it should be the parents decision alone on what they should do as ultimately they will have to raise the child.

Hector Savage

Grayson wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2803834/I-wish-d-aborted-son-ve-spent-47-years-caring-s-shocking-admission-read-judge.html

You should also read that.

Great article, and brave woman too - it's so tough.
These pro lifers (anti women-ers) fail to see the difficult lives ahead for everyone involved - they also tend not to give a sh*t once the child is born.

In one sense I think it's sad that people are singled out because of things like DS. In a much larger sense I hope I would never be part of making such a decision and have a pretty strong idea what side I'd fall on.

ThisRegard

Such a test is already available in hospitals in Ireland and is availed of.

feargale

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Godwin'd in the very first reply.

Impressive!

And Godwin in the second.

.......

This post has been deleted.

BrokenArrows

Down Syndrome isnt some race of people to destroy. Its a condition which has huge implications on the child and the parents.

What you describe is a test which allows parents to know if their child will be born with a condition that prevents them from living a normal life and also which prevents that child from maturing and being independent from the parents.

I know that if i knew my child would be born with Downs then i would absolutely terminate. I couldn't imagine myself being a 70 year old aging father and still having to take care of my child.

Downs isnt just a visual and mental condition. It comes with a host of other medical problems too.

biko

Abortion is not genocide, please stop being so alarmist

harr

As a parent with a child with DS I still think it’s a woman’s choice what she wants to do...yes a lot of kids and adults with DS function very well but like our case a lot of kids with DS have more severe symptoms and not to mention the other health issues that come with DS.
Normally charities and campaigners will always show examples of high functioning people with DS, rarely do we see the more severe cases...and expectant mothers really need to weigh up the facts before making that decision..both financially and emotionally not everyone is cut out to be a parent of a special needs child..

Hooks Golf Handicap

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

Us Irish have a long & proud history on how we accept & view people with down syndrome so could we be a special case & break the trend.

Hard to tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

We have no long & proud history. Down syndrome people were usually locked up in asylums. It's only in the past.. maybe 20 years.. that this has changed for the better.

asteroids over berlin

Depends on the situation really, you have to think of the future. All beings are equal and all that. Parenthood is a life changing experience (i am a father), it is a joy, best thing ever, however it is also hard work, particularly in today's fast paced society.
Bringing a child with DS into the world will also be a joy but i imagine it will be a whole lot tougher (for the child and parents), then you have to think of the future, when you guys aren't around, what happens then, these days DS adults are pretty independent, have jobs, friends etc which is fantastic but for me personally the mental worry would affect me a great deal. I guess it depends on the person.
It is not an easy decision to make being a parent, particularly for the mother to terminate etc - in fact it must be truly awful. I hope we never have to make that decision. I agree with having the option of the test though

c_man

Eugenics and abortion hand in hand? Colour me shocked.

Grayson

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

That's a real walk in my shoes eye opener, very brave lady

That's the thing. It's not a simple answer. I've known many people who have downs. And the vast majority are lovely. But you don't see the really serious cases.
If I was told I was going to have a child with downs I honestly don't know what I'd do. But I know I'd want the option.

Hooks Golf Handicap

biko wrote: »

Abortion is not genocide, please stop being so alarmist

It's the targeted termination of a subset of people who share a common trait.
My sensationalist, yet accurate, headline stands.

yesto24

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hard to tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

We have no long & proud history. Down syndrome people were usually locked up in asylums. It's only in the past.. maybe 20 years.. that this has changed for the better.

That is just not true

.......

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You could be waiting a while then. :pac:
There's too many things to take into account IMO. As a guy it wouldn't be up to me, my job would be to figure out what the mother wanted and to go along with it. :pac: Realistically though I wouldn't want a severely handicapped kid, for my own selfish reasons along with the effect on the mother and on other kids if they are around. But like I said, it's something I hope I never have to be part of.

c_man

c_man wrote: »

Eugenics and abortion hand in hand? Colour me shocked.

Murder and air hand in hand? Colour me shocked.

Wow that's easy.

CalamariFritti

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

It's the targeted termination of a subset of people who share a common trait.
My sensationalist, yet accurate, headline stands.

Only it’s before they become people. It’s a sh1t stirrer headline.

c_man

Deleted User wrote: »

It's only in the past.. maybe 20 years.. that this has changed for the better.

That's bolloX tbh. 35 years ago we had a care home in our estate, with plenty of DS people in it and it was well established by then. It was nice having them live in, and be part of the local community. The nurses/carers there were something else.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Godwin'd in the very first reply.

Impressive!

Did you miss the thread about phone boxes where he Godwinned it in the title...?!

I think it's rather easy for people to get on their moral high ground or pedestal about situations they won't have to experience themselves.

Many parents already find the costs in raising 'normal' children to be very high. Now, add in the costs (monetary, and emotional) for a child with a severe disability... I also think it's best to bear in mind that this potential child with the disability will need help for most of their lives. It's not like a child growing up and leaving the home at 21. It makes sense to give potential parents the choice to decide whether they can actually afford to have such a child.

Akrasia

thalidomide babies were genocided decades ago when we stopped giving that drug to pregnant women

A Little Pony

People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.

A Little Pony

A Little Pony wrote: »

People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.

Where's your line? Fertilisation?

Geuze

Video by person with DS making presentation to US Congress:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQJEoRhkapw

c_man

A Little Pony wrote: »

People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.

I think it's more a case of what happens with readily available abortion, rather than a grand plan. People will filter their children on various cases and DS is high up there. Gender is another easy one. Further down the line we can expect more advanced genetic tests to select on (intelligence, physical traits, maybe even sexual orientation and other things like that?). If you don't think that something is fully formed or has rights until it exits a woman's vagina or belly, then why not?

harr

A Little Pony wrote: »

People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.

And many many don’t live a perfectly normal life and in fact many of even the high functioning people with DS need a lot more additional supports, very few people with DS will lead totally independent lives.
And to call parents making the hardest decision of their lives murderers is disgusting..

rawn

WHAT DOES GODWINNING MEAN?!

MrPudding

A Little Pony wrote: »

People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.

I don't want a child with DS. I have 4 children, and having a child with DS would have a serious impact on our ability to give those existing children the kind of start in life I want them to have.

Even if I did not already have children, I would not want to have a child with DS. I don't believe in life at any cost or irrespective of the quality of that life. I would not want to bring a child with DS into the world, i would not want to because I would not intentionally bring a child into the world where I knew that child would suffer. Additionally, and quite selfishly, I would not want to suffer the impact it would have on my life.

All that said, if someone else wants to bring a child with DS into the world then all power to them. I salute them. It is entirely their choice, and I support that. After all, I am pro-choice.

MrP

A Little Pony

c_man wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.

I think it's more a case of what happens with readily available abortion, rather than a grand plan. People will filter their children on various cases and DS is high up there. Gender is another easy one. Further down the line we can expect more advanced genetic tests to select on (intelligence, physical traits, maybe even sexual orientation and other things like that?). If you don't think that something is fully formed or has rights until it exits a woman's vagina or belly, then why not?

That is the fundamental disagreement, I don't believe in that. 

harr wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.

And many many don’t live a perfectly normal life and in fact many of even the high functioning people with DS need a lot more additional supports, very few people with DS will lead totally  independent  lives.
And to call parents making the hardest decision  of their lives  murderers is disgusting..

You don't need to live an "independent life" to live a good life for as long as possible and to get the enjoyments out of life. We are here once and some don't want to give down syndrome people any chance of experiencing life, even with it's negatives.  What about two down syndrome people meeting each other, getting married, having children?

MrPudding

rawn wrote: »

WHAT DOES GODWINNING MEAN?!

Here you go.

MrP

ohnonotgmail

rawn wrote: »

WHAT DOES GODWINNING MEAN?!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

optogirl

rawn wrote: »

WHAT DOES GODWINNING MEAN?!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Doltanian

The hypocrisy of Left-Wing Liberals they will defend the life of killers and murderers but gladly take away the life of innocents whether they are healthy or otherwise.

c_man

A Little Pony wrote: »

That is the fundamental disagreement, I don't believe in that.

Neither do I.

SusieBlue

A Little Pony wrote: »

People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.

Horrifying comment. You have never lived life with a relative with a disability to be saying things like that.
How dare you dictate what one parent can cope with over another.

As always people are concerned about people aborting babies with these conditions but don't give a monkeys about them when they're born.
Instead of judging families who have decided to terminate a pregnancy why don't you volunteer/campaign for your local Downs Syndrome charity?
After all, they're just like everyone else and many live a perfectly normal life. Shouldn't be a bother to you.

I say this as someone who has a sibling with a severe disability that requires round the clock supervision even as a near adult. A man who will never know independence. We love him so much but he's very hard work.

My mam is with him 24/7 as his carer and she's amazing. Never complains. She has never uttered a word about regrets but jesus I wouldn't blame her for not choosing a life like this.

The Backwards Man

c_man wrote: »

That's bolloX tbh. 35 years ago we had a care home in our estate, with plenty of DS people in it and it was well established by then. It was nice having them live in, and be part of the local community. The nurses/carers there were something else.

He might be a bit out on his timeline, but I'm not that old and I can remember children (and adults) with DS being hidden away in locked rooms and much much worse.

And I guarantee you this, a lot of those who treated people with DS like cattle would be the same ones upon arms about aborting.

rawn

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Ah. Have to say I'm a little disappointed, I had hoped it was another "I'm eating my breakfast, Kate" type scenario.

harr

The Backwards Man wrote: »

He might be a bit out on his timeline, but I'm not that old and I can remember children (and adults) with DS being hidden away in locked rooms and much much worse.

A town not far from me had a very large care home and it was very common practice for parents to leave disabled here and never see them again and not all children left here were seriously disabled children ..a lot the residents are in their 40,s and 50,s now so the practice of giving up children happened well into the 80,s .
Parents were actively encouraged by nuns ( who ran the Home) and priests to give up the children...the same people who start preaching when abortion is mentioned..

BrokenArrows

A Little Pony wrote: »

People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.

I dont think anyone actually cares if there are people with DS in the world. The people who care are the ones who are forced to look after them for the rest of their lives.

If someone has a DS child they have 2 options.
1. Abandon the child to social care.
2. Spend the rest of their lives caring for the child who will likely outlive them and have to go into care anyway.

Its normal for parents to care for their children for 18 years at which point you expect your child to be mostly self sufficient and be totally self sufficient in their early 20's.
Nobody wants to abandon their child but given the option a lot would like to avoid having to look after their special needs child for 60 years and a child whose mental age rarely exceeds 10 years old.

seamus

WhiteRoses wrote: »

As always people are concerned about people aborting babies with these conditions but don't give a monkeys about them when they're born.

I'm always fascinated by people who seem to think that being born is always better than not being born. I have to wonder what kind of narrow life experience someone might have to actually believe this.

It's as if they believe that once you're out of that birth canal it's all puppies and roses and fun and games.

The harsh truth is that while our human condition brings us to retroactively "cherish" life experiences, even the hard ones, that doesn't mean everyone will or should cherish those same experiences. And that they shouldn't be forced to endure them.

topper75

The Me generation just took it one level higher, and feigns a 'best for all concerned' line of patter in doing so.