Would Ireland follow Europe's Lead in Aborting the Huge Majority of Down Syndrome Pos

GreeBo

Mousewar wrote: »

Independent in this case refers to being independent of direct life support offered by machines in the case of adults suffering brain death (the case to which i was replying) and by the mother's placenta in the case of the unborn.

Which is all well and good, but the tone by many supporting the "right to life" is that everything is tickety-boo once you manage to avoid being aborted.

In any case the lack of a "normal" life is whats important. Who are we to knowingly subject someone to a potential life of misery?
What makes that better than allowing an abortion?

(not questions directed at you personally)

end of the road

gctest50 wrote: »

I doubt it's anything as noble as that

- values that little bit of power and control

GreeBo wrote: »

You dont value life, you value the unborn. You clearly couldnt give a flying continental about anything outside the womb.

again this is more makey uppy nonsense to fit your bogeyman agenda. it's exactly why these debates can be difficult because people make bogeymen out of people because they disagree with their view.

gctest50

end of the road wrote: »

no . i hope things will be made very difficult. abortion on demand must not be allowed in ireland, or at least it's implementation made very difficult.

the control, the powah

end of the road

gctest50 wrote: »

the control, the powah

no the equal protection and valuing of the life of the unborn with the rest of us

kylith

end of the road wrote: »

no the equal protection and valuing of the life of the unborn with the rest of us

But once they're born they can live in poverty, or abusive situations, or with profound disabilities?

maxsmum

my sister had a termination after finding out the baby had DS (she was in her 40s and had amnio done to check).
I had a panorama test done here last year when pregnant to check. I was 99% sure I would terminate if positive, but not having been in those shoes can't say 100%. I would have to give up my job (so couldn't afford mortgage) if had a special needs child and we had a cousin with DS who caused so much grief for his parents when they realised he would outlive them yet they were his full time carers and he was profoundly disabled. The HSE had no place for him. It was horrendous. So to be blunt, no I don't want a child with special needs and if there are ways to screen for certain types then yes I would have it done again.

GreeBo

end of the road wrote: »

again this is more makey uppy nonsense to fit your bogeyman agenda. it's exactly why these debates can be difficult because people make bogeymen out of people because they disagree with their view.

How is it makey-uppy nonsense?

You are unwilling to provide any means for pregnant women to firstly check if they are going to have a child with Downs and secondly choose whether or not to abort their pregnancy.

I'm not making a bogeyman out of your opinion, you are entitled to that, I'm attacking the lack of logic of compassion in your "finger in the ears", "la la la, I dont care because its not happening to me" attitude.

If you care so much about life, why don't you care about potential a life of poverty and suffering for the people that you are forcing to carry pregnancies that they dont want?

gctest50

end of the road wrote: »

no the equal protection and valuing of the life of the unborn with the rest of us

but if they travel to the UK it's OK ?

end of the road

GreeBo wrote: »

How is it makey-uppy nonsense?

because it's untrue.

GreeBo wrote: »

You are unwilling to provide any means for pregnant women to firstly check if they are going to have a child with Downs and secondly choose whether or not to abort their pregnancy.

i'm not, they have the means to abort their pregnantsy. they can pop across the water.

GreeBo wrote: »

If you care so much about life, why don't you care about potential a life of poverty and suffering for the people that you are forcing to carry pregnancies that they dont want?

i'm not forcing anyone to do anything.

gctest50 wrote: »

but if they travel to the UK it's OK ?

it's not no . but i can't stop them.

GreeBo

end of the road wrote: »

because it's untrue.

Nothing you have posted shows that, on the contrary it back up my assertion.

end of the road wrote: »

i'm not, they have the means to abort their pregnantsy. they can pop across the water.

Oh, so you are going to pay for them all now?
As has been asked several times already, what about those that cannot afford this little trip you describe?

end of the road wrote: »

i'm not forcing anyone to do anything.

Other than to travel to the UK you mean?

end of the road wrote: »

it's not no . but i can't stop them.

Why are you not campaigning for jail time for those that do travel for example?

end of the road

GreeBo wrote: »

Nothing you have posted shows that, on the contrary it back up my assertion.

everything i have posted shows that i care equally for all life, none of my posts back up your untrue and inaccurate beliefs.

January

I honestly believe end of the road is just repeating their stance ad nauseum until one of us loses the rag with them and then they can gloat to all their anti choice buddies that 'that those prochoice people are so angry and aggressive.'

Probably best off starting to ignore them now.

SusieBlue

end of the road wrote: »

everything i have posted shows that i care equally for all life, none of my posts back up your untrue and inaccurate beliefs.

In your book, the fetus' right to life is equal to the mothers.
But when the mother doesn't want to be pregnant, and due to lack of money/permission to travel, she is forced to remain so, is that not placing a higher value on the rights of the fetus?
They are therefore unequal?

The woman has lived her life, is a fully fledged human. The fetus is hosted by her body and cannot survive, thrive, or develop without her. But even if she doesn't want to be pregnant, in her own country, she is forced to remain so. Because the fetus has equal rights, her rights are diminished.

I don't know how many times this has been explained to you but you still don't get it. They aren't equal. The fetus's right to life is more important than that womans bodily autonomy. I will repeat it again, they are not equal. And that just isn't right in my opinion. Her rights should supersede that of the pregnancy without a doubt.

.......

This post has been deleted.

rainbow kirby

GreeBo wrote: »

How is it makey-uppy nonsense?

You are unwilling to provide any means for pregnant women to firstly check if they are going to have a child with Downs and secondly choose whether or not to abort their pregnancy.

Clearly he's conveniently also neglecting the part where prenatal screening can help the medical teams plan for a possibly more complicated delivery and immediate care for the baby, for example if a baby who they know has Down's has a heart defect (and these are more common in babies with DS) and needs immediate NICU care and urgent surgery. In utero diagnosis and proper perinatal care in place do actually save lives.

end of the road

January wrote: »

I honestly believe end of the road is just repeating their stance ad nauseum until one of us loses the rag with them and then they can gloat to all their anti choice buddies that 'that those prochoice people are so angry and aggressive.'

you would be wrong. there would be nothing to gain. the old reliable tactics by both extremes of making people angry or creating bogeymen bring nothing to the table, so it would not be in my interest to take part in such.

January wrote: »

Probably best off starting to ignore them now.

you would be wasting your time, i'm entitled to my opinion.

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

no it's just the simple fact that i don't agree with abortion on demand and nothing can change me from that view. no amount of allegations, lies, misrepresentation or all else will change that.

Outlaw Pete

kylith wrote: »

But once they're born they can live in poverty, or abusive situations, or with profound disabilities?

"Emotional blackmail".

SusieBlue

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

"Emotional blackmail".

Note the use of the word "can". As opposed to sharing blogs and instagrams of happy, joyous children with DS begging you not to have an abortion.

Grayson

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Note the use of the word "can". As opposed to sharing blogs and instagrams of happy, joyous children with DS begging you not to have an abortion.

Or insisting on using the word baby rather than foetus or embryo.

gctest50

ot

You'd wonder if disabling "thanks" feature on abortion threads would improve quality

Outlaw Pete

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Note the use of the word "can". As opposed to sharing blogs and instagrams of happy, joyous children with DS begging you not to have an abortion.

AGAIN, I have pointed out how it can be difficult for some people with DS and their families also, many times, and so when I show someone like Sofia it is to is show how the life of someone with DS "can" be too. Therefore, there is no reason to label one an appeal to emotion blackmail, but yet not the other.

GreeBo

end of the road wrote: »

it would not be in my interest to take part in such.

Is that why you are not really taking part and your defence of your opinion amounts to "well it is, so there!"?

end of the road wrote: »

no it's just the simple fact that i don't agree with abortion on demand and nothing can change me from that view. no amount of allegations, lies, misrepresentation or all else will change that.

Nothing will change you from that view?
So no facts or any new information that may come to light will ever change your stance on something? Thats a very closed-minded attitude to have.

Quick one, earlier in the thread you said (regarding pregnant women being able to travel to the UK but as long as its not available in Ireland you are ok)
"If it saves only one life it is worth it."

What about the lives that never exist due to families being forced to carry DS pregnancies to full term? What about the ruination of lives of people forced to care for severely disabled people for their entire lives?

Can you not see how possible this is where people get the impression that you don't care about the living, just the unborn?

But sure why do we bother, you have clearly stated that *nothing* will change your mind. Frankly thats a very "religious zealot" attitude to take to the world.

GreeBo

gctest50 wrote: »

ot

You'd wonder if disabling "thanks" feature on abortion threads would improve quality

Likewise for image attachments...

Ken.

Mod-January, do not post in the thread again. Reason- Back seat modding.

kylith

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

"Emotional blackmail".

These are the situations in which some Irish women seek abortions.

Would you agree that a woman in an abusive relationship could be afraid to bring a child into that relationship, and be unable to travel to the UK for an abortion?

Would you agree that a woman living on the bread line would be aware that she could not provide for a child, and would be unable to travel to the UK for an abortion?

Would you agree that a woman who finds our that her child will be disabled may not have the means to travel to the UK for an abortion?

swampgas

end of the road wrote: »

you would be wasting your time, i'm entitled to my opinion.

no it's just the simple fact that i don't agree with abortion on demand and nothing can change me from that view. no amount of allegations, lies, misrepresentation or all else will change that.

Your opinion of course is your own. However in a discussion forum where you are debating with other people who have different opinions, it's not enough to simply state "this is what I believe, and nothing is going to change that". That's not a debate or a discussion.

Ideally you should be trying to persuade other people why you believe what you believe, to explain why your opinion is what it is, and ultimately you should be able to explain why you think other people should agree with your position.

However I honestly don't think you have fully worked out for yourself why you have the positions you do, but at this point you are so invested your position that you are reduced to simply asserting it over and over rather than admit (to yourself perhaps?) that you can't really make a solid case for it.

SusieBlue

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

AGAIN, I have pointed out how it can be difficult for some people with DS and their families also, many times, and so when I show someone like Sofia it is to is show how the life of someone with DS "can" be too. Therefore, there is no reason to label one an appeal to emotion blackmail, but yet not the other.

If you honestly can't see the difference between what you posted and what Kylith posted, I give up.
Suggesting a child can be born into neglect and poverty is a bit different to sharing a message directed at those who are Pro Choice to reconsider their position, straight from a little child with DS.

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Oh and on topic, Sofia has a message for anyone considering ending the life of a prenate with Down Syndrome.


https://www.instagram.com/p/BLM3yvwh6RV/

Outlaw Pete

kylith wrote: »

These are the situations in which some Irish women seek abortions.

Would you agree that a woman in an abusive relationship could be afraid to bring a child into that relationship, and be unable to travel to the UK for an abortion?

Would you agree that a woman living on the bread line would be aware that she could not provide for a child, and would be unable to travel to the UK for an abortion?

Would you agree that a woman who finds our that her child will be disabled may not have the means to travel to the UK for an abortion?

Yup, all issues which must be addressed but the difference is, I wouldn't label you raising such issues as "emotional blackmail" as they are relevant. The point is that when appeals to emotion of any kind are made on the opposite side that is what happens. You can't have it both ways.

end of the road

GreeBo wrote: »

Is that why you are not really taking part and your defence of your opinion amounts to "well it is, so there!"?



Nothing will change you from that view?
So no facts or any new information that may come to light will ever change your stance on something? Thats a very closed-minded attitude to have.

Quick one, earlier in the thread you said (regarding pregnant women being able to travel to the UK but as long as its not available in Ireland you are ok)
"If it saves only one life it is worth it."

What about the lives that never exist due to families being forced to carry DS pregnancies to full term? What about the ruination of lives of people forced to care for severely disabled people for their entire lives?

Can you not see how possible this is where people get the impression that you don't care about the living, just the unborn?

But sure why do we bother, you have clearly stated that *nothing* will change your mind. Frankly thats a very "religious zealot" attitude to take to the world.

i can't see how it would be possible that people would get the impression that i don't care about the living, just the unborn.
i feel genuinely sorry for anyone who is suffering, however i recognise the right to life of the unborn and i believe that that right needs to be protected as much as is practical. all other issues must be dealt with but they are not reasons for removing the protection of the rights of the unborn in my view.

sunshine and showers

I don't have the time nor the inclination to read so many pages of posts, but I assume someobe pointed out that the "Iceland aborts 100% of babies with Down Syndrome" thing simply isn't true.