Hospital consultants - milking the system for their own benefit!

Jon_459 · 22-11-2017 03:51PM

The inability of hospitals to provide sufficient facilities (operating theatres, staff etc) which would allow them work their full hours was touted by one consultants on last nights show as one of the reasons.
The response was then made that there are a lot of other activities such as reviewing cases, reviewing junior doctors work and, more importantly, training and guidance could and should be done if and when theatres are not available.
It's not all about operations.

Anita Blow · 22-11-2017 03:52PM

velo.2010 wrote: »

What qualification they have is beside the point. We train guards, teachers, doctors, nurses etc. with the expectation to work in the public service - because we have a public service which need such people.

Then provide a public service which they actually want to work in, like every other western country does. Ask yourself why the majority of doctors coming out of college are choosing to move abroad.

arctictree · 22-11-2017 03:57PM

Simple solution is to just train more doctors. Double the places. Anyone ever hear of an unemployed doctor?

Sleepy · 22-11-2017 04:01PM

Honestly, I still haven't gotten my head around why private medical practice was ever allowed in the first place.

the_syco · 22-11-2017 04:08PM

velo.2010 wrote: »

We train Gardaí to serve in the state and we train the defence forces to do similar. Its possible to expect doctors and nurses to stay at home and serve the country for a period.

State pays for the Gardai and army training. State doesn't pay for training for the doctors and nurses.

seamus wrote: »

It may require higher spending in health

Shall we reduce the Welfare payments to fund this?

velo.2010 · 22-11-2017 04:15PM

the_syco wrote: »

State pays for the Gardai and army training. State doesn't pay for training for the doctors and nurses.

State pays for third level tuition fees under the 'Free Fees initiative' for. students pay the contribution charge for student services etc.

seamus · 22-11-2017 04:17PM

the_syco wrote: »

Shall we reduce the Welfare payments to fund this?

We can increase taxes. We have space for it, no matter how much wailing may be done.

The aim should be to reduce costs in the long-term - close unnecessary hospitals & increase bed capacities at larger hospitals.
So a short term increase in funding in order to clear a blockage is well worth it.

velo.2010 · 22-11-2017 04:29PM

Anita Blow wrote: »

Ask yourself why the majority of doctors coming out of college are choosing to move abroad.

If its because it shows the dire state the service is in, then it should be the catalyst to do something about it and start by doubling down the all party agreement on the 10 year plan for free healthcare and the phasing out of private practise in public hospitals.

However, if the answer is - because they see senior consultants earning the sort of money they will never earn - then I think they should question why they decided to plump for medicine in the first place.

Anita Blow · 22-11-2017 04:31PM

velo.2010 wrote: »

State pays for third level tuition fees under the 'Free Fees initiative' for. students pay the contribution charge for student services etc.

Medical schools differ in their funding.
~50% of EU places allocated to graduate entry which is entirely self-funded. The remaining undergraduate places are majority funded by international fees and the student contribution.

Anita Blow · 22-11-2017 04:40PM

velo.2010 wrote: »

If its because it shows the dire state the service is in, then it should be the catalyst to do something about it and start by doubling down the all party agreement on the 10 year plan for free healthcare and the phasing out of private practise in public hospitals.

However, if the answer is - because they see senior consultants earning the sort of money they will never earn - then I think they should question why they decided to plump for medicine in the first place.

Why is it the onus of the young in this country to make some noble sacrifice for a government and public which holds them in such contempt?

Would you yourself work a 30 hour+ shift and be paid for half of it? Would you work a 10 hour day each day and only paid for 8?

Would you accept your employer routinely breaking the law and rostering you for illegally long rotas, knowing you can't just clock out at 5 because you'd be letting your patients down?

Would you accept only being put on a 4 month contract at a time and being emergency taxed every 4 months? The hassle of trying to get a mortgage or loan when you can't demonstrate you're employed beyond the next 4 months?

Would you accept moving around the country every 4-6 months for the 10 or so years until you can become consultant? Having to try maintain a family life, often holding down more than one rental lease because you can't find accommodation on such short leases?

Would you accept the utter contempt the public hold for you working an 80 hour week for 33k as an intern?

Would you accept working in a country where your 90k loan (which nearly half of graduates will have) will limit you from owning a house because the government doesn't offer tax relief on it while other western countries do?

This isn't even half of the **** doctors have to put up with.

velo.2010 · 22-11-2017 05:11PM

Anita Blow wrote: »

Why is it the onus of the young in this country to make some noble sacrifice for a government and public which holds them in such contempt?

A line in the sand has to be drawn somewhere if we are to get a handle on things. We all paid for the sh1tstorm of the financial crisis and we got over it... sort of.

I do agree though with many of the points you've made here.

Sue Pa Key Pa · 22-11-2017 05:19PM

velo.2010 wrote:

The problem is, even if you have private only hospitals, I think you'll still have an overlap with public hospitals, which is not acceptable IMO.

None it is acceptable. It is not right that the people cannot access treatment in a timely fashion when they need it and it is not right that I have to pay nearly â‚¬300 a month for insurance for myself and my wife for a basic policy.

I used my insurance for a procedure during the Summer for which the public waiting period is 3 years. My consultant told me I wouldn't have lasted the 3 years without treatment.

....... · 22-11-2017 05:22PM

This post has been deleted.

Anita Blow · 22-11-2017 05:22PM

Well it's the government's responsibility to get a handle on things, not its workers to just accept the status quo. As we have learned time and time again, the HSE takes the utmost advantage in exploiting its workers goodwill and the almost certainty that the general public will gladly take any opportunity to bash a profession they've been conditioned to perceive is somehow privileged (which is no longer the case). Its management is all too happy to make a scapegoat of them to maintain that status quo. And why wouldn't they? It works, looking at this thread.

Like I said, ask yourself why doctors are leaving in their droves. Ask yourself why we can't even attract foreign medics. Consider these points the next time you or a loved one is in the ED after waiting 24 hours on a trolley to be seen by an SHO on their 20th hour of work with no break and no senior cover in the middle of the night.

diomed · 22-11-2017 05:33PM

I'm outraged. B*******.
But I've got excellent treatment for my many problems over the last six years.

Berserker · 22-11-2017 05:38PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

did i hear correctly that one scrounger was only doing 13 hours a week for their 200k a year?

Very much the exception. My OH is an A&E doc and she told me that the consultants she deals with put in the hours.

arctictree wrote: »

Simple solution is to just train more doctors. Double the places. Anyone ever hear of an unemployed doctor?

Nope, you need people who are smart enough to be doctors and want to be doctors. It's a very long, hard slog.

velo.2010 · 22-11-2017 05:59PM

Berserker wrote: »

Very much the exception. My OH is an A&E doc and she told me that the consultants she deals with put in the hours.

Nope, you need people who are smart enough to be doctors and want to be doctors. It's a very long, hard slog.

I knew a couple of people who really wanted to be doctors. They were excellent at biology (A's all round) and knew every inch of the human body. However, a few marks sort in a couple of other subjects (and not being able to afford the grinds in the Institue in Leeson street) and they didn't get in.

Most entrants come from a family with a history in medicine. Many have a passion but I'm sure some are just going through the motions as its what is expected from them.

I wouldn't mind a process which gave more young people from varied backgrounds the chance to study medicine if they show a true interest for it.

Ipso · 22-11-2017 05:59PM

seamus wrote: »

We can increase taxes. We have space for it, no matter how much wailing may be done.

The aim should be to reduce costs in the long-term - close unnecessary hospitals & increase bed capacities at larger hospitals.
So a short term increase in funding in order to clear a blockage is well worth it.

No part would get elected on a slogan that has higher taxes in it. Irish people say they want good public services but don't want to pay for and don't seem to hold people accountable.

Berserker · 22-11-2017 06:16PM

Ipso wrote: »

No part would get elected on a slogan that has higher taxes in it. Irish people say they want good public services but don't want to pay for and don't seem to hold people accountable.

And the extra taxes would get swallowed up by unions and middle management.

Moomintroll99 · 22-11-2017 06:30PM

I think it ignored the reality of the way consultants operate.

Our 5 yr old has cancer and attends Crumlin. Most of the first few weeks he was there, he saw consultants at ridiculous times - 4 in the morning etc as an emergency, weekends, nights etc. When more junior staff saw him they often called consultants for advice at random times in the night. Ward round started at 8 every morning with time going over notes etc beforehand. Those guys were incredibly hard working, doing insane hours with limited resources. Stalking them between 9 and 5 would be completely irrelevant to their weekly hours.

The biggest issue for parents at Crumlin is resources, not consultants' hours. Try talking to the parents of kids with spina bifida and scoliosis. They need specialised operating theatres, which Crumlin does have, but which HSE only funds a day or two each week - other days the facilities sit idle while kids suffer.

I can see how it's two tier for the higher margin/less life and death stuff, like hip and knee replacements in adults, but when you have super-specialised stuff like paediatric scoliosis surgey or obscure kinds of childhood cancer in a country with a small population, how can you possibly have a 'private market' on the side? Our boy has a kind of cancer that comes up in about 3 kids per year in Ireland. There's literally only one guy who has the skills to treat him, and one hospital with the facilities. It's got to be funded centrally according to need.

HSE just wants to shift the blame on to 'greedy doctors' because it's easier than the systemic change and big spending that's actually needed in health funding.

22-11-2017 06:58PM

Moomintroll99 wrote: »

I think it ignored the reality of the way consultants operate.

Our 5 yr old has cancer and attends Crumlin. Most of the first few weeks he was there, he saw consultants at ridiculous times - 4 in the morning etc as an emergency, weekends, nights etc. When more junior staff saw him they often called consultants for advice at random times in the night. Ward round started at 8 every morning with time going over notes etc beforehand. Those guys were incredibly hard working, doing insane hours with limited resources. Stalking them between 9 and 5 would be completely irrelevant to their weekly hours.

The biggest issue for parents at Crumlin is resources, not consultants' hours. Try talking to the parents of kids with spina bifida and scoliosis. They need specialised operating theatres, which Crumlin does have, but which HSE only funds a day or two each week - other days the facilities sit idle while kids suffer.

I can see how it's two tier for the higher margin/less life and death stuff, like hip and knee replacements in adults, but when you have super-specialised stuff like paediatric scoliosis surgey or obscure kinds of childhood cancer in a country with a small population, how can you possibly have a 'private market' on the side? Our boy has a kind of cancer that comes up in about 3 kids per year in Ireland. There's literally only one guy who has the skills to treat him, and one hospital with the facilities. It's got to be funded centrally according to need.

HSE just wants to shift the blame on to 'greedy doctors' because it's easier than the systemic change and big spending that's actually needed in health funding.

Its not the HSE alone its also the media( who can be biased against private medical care ) that want to blame consultants, I had to see a consultant recently and he starts seeing his private patients at 7am the vast majority do work very hard. That consultant do not have oversight as in having a 'boss' the same way everyone else does is wrong though.

irish gent · 22-11-2017 07:00PM

I have private health insurance since April 2015. I joined it before they put a loading on your age that time . 76 euro a month I pay.

I went to specsavers to get my eyes tested and was told I have the start of a cataract . So I called the Insurance company to see if I was covered so in the end, I got and the surgeon got, an approval letter to go ahead . I got the job done 13 weeks ago and now the Insurance company are not paying out because they said it was a pre-conditioning ailment that I had after getting the letter of approval .. My surgeon was annoyed at the Insurance company and the way they are handling it. It costs me 150 euro a visit each time I go to the Private hospital.So far over 850 euro I have paid in to it . I can claim back 60 euro of it I was told by the Insurance Company what a joke. I watched prime time and was very sad over seeing this. Believe me I was told to take up the private health because of my age now I begin to wonder ????

jimmycrackcorm · 22-11-2017 08:03PM

Sleepy wrote:

Honestly, I still haven't gotten my head around why private medical practice was ever allowed in the first place.

The only reason we have private medical practice is because the public system is inadequate.

It's Is a bit like saying I don't know why someone in a taxi gets to use the bus lane instead of having to use the car lane if they drive themselves.

seamus wrote:

The aim should be to reduce costs in the long-term - close unnecessary hospitals & increase bed capacities at larger hospitals. So a short term increase in funding in order to clear a blockage is well worth it.

Public health spending more than doubled during the tiger years from 5bn in 2000 to 13.5bn in 2008. You'd imagine that such an increase would have wiped out waiting lists....

the_syco · 22-11-2017 08:12PM

seamus wrote: »

The aim should be to reduce costs in the long-term - close unnecessary hospitals

Sooo... close all non-Dublin hospitals, and force anyone with an injury to goto Dublin hospitals? [/sarc]

Actually, not sarc, as they're doing that now...!

Rodin · 22-11-2017 08:14PM

velo.2010 wrote: »

We train Gardaí to serve in the state and we train the defence forces to do similar. Its possible to expect doctors and nurses to stay at home and serve the country for a period.

Doctors are not trained to serve the state like Gardia and Army.
They certainly dont get paid while doing so like the army do.
People study medicine at college like others study many other subjects. Do you want Irish trained architects to have to work for county councils to pay back the perceived debt of their education?

Any money spent on training doctors is paid back very quickly in the taxes they pay.

22-11-2017 08:19PM

seamus wrote: »

We can increase taxes. We have space for it, no matter how much wailing may be done.

The aim should be to reduce costs in the long-term - close unnecessary hospitals & increase bed capacities at larger hospitals.
So a short term increase in funding in order to clear a blockage is well worth it.

Paying more taxes sounds lovely until you realise you're throwing more money at a problem with no action plan to actually clear the issues, be efficient, and actually help people. 'Maybe it'll work this time' is not good enough

irish gent wrote: »

I have private health insurance since April 2015. I joined it before they put a loading on your age that time . 76 euro a month I pay.

I went to specsavers to get my eyes tested and was told I have the start of a cataract . So I called the Insurance company to see if I was covered so in the end, I got and the surgeon got, an approval letter to go ahead . I got the job done 13 weeks ago and now the Insurance company are not paying out because they said it was a pre-conditioning ailment that I had after getting the letter of approval .. My surgeon was annoyed at the Insurance company and the way they are handling it. It costs me 150 euro a visit each time I go to the Private hospital.So far over 850 euro I have paid in to it . I can claim back 60 euro of it I was told by the Insurance Company what a joke. I watched prime time and was very sad over seeing this. Believe me I was told to take up the private health because of my age now I begin to wonder ????

Yeah i have it as well and fat lot of good it's done me. a few grand on the credit card because it didn't cover any of the consultant appointments or private hospital i stayed in - all other ones are covered except that one, apparently. the excess on the policy is deducted based on what they would have paid, not what i paid. so for the 250 euro consultant fee, only 60 euro gets lopped off the excess of 250, and i get nothing. 4-5 consultant visits before they look at giving me back a penny.
they can swing for it. changing the policy completely this year

Rodin · 22-11-2017 08:25PM

Anita Blow wrote: »

Why is it the onus of the young in this country to make some noble sacrifice for a government and public which holds them in such contempt?

Would you yourself work a 30 hour+ shift and be paid for half of it? Would you work a 10 hour day each day and only paid for 8?

Would you accept your employer routinely breaking the law and rostering you for illegally long rotas, knowing you can't just clock out at 5 because you'd be letting your patients down?

Would you accept only being put on a 4 month contract at a time and being emergency taxed every 4 months? The hassle of trying to get a mortgage or loan when you can't demonstrate you're employed beyond the next 4 months?

Would you accept moving around the country every 4-6 months for the 10 or so years until you can become consultant? Having to try maintain a family life, often holding down more than one rental lease because you can't find accommodation on such short leases?

Would you accept the utter contempt the public hold for you working an 80 hour week for 33k as an intern?

Would you accept working in a country where your 90k loan (which nearly half of graduates will have) will limit you from owning a house because the government doesn't offer tax relief on it while other western countries do?

This isn't even half of the **** doctors have to put up with.

And you'll never see a primetime episode on that.
Everyone else in society goes on strike for more cash. Doctors went on strike to get theit shifts LIMITED to 24hours.
Doctors aren't half appreciated enough particularly in the media.

Rodin · 22-11-2017 08:27PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

Neither the Gardai nor the Defence Forces have a qualification which can be used abroad. Your example is very flawed.

And they didnt go to college for 6 years to get their training at their own expense.

Sue Pa Key Pa · 22-11-2017 08:30PM

Just to be clear. I've nothing but admiration for front line medical staff. Heroes the lot of them. However, the system they work in is beyond broken and not fit for purpose.

Rodin · 22-11-2017 08:30PM

The simple solution is to have all doctors clock in and clock out and get paid by the hour.

Now ask yourself why that hasn't happened.

Hospital consultants - milking the system for their own benefit!

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