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Hospital consultants - milking the system for their own benefit!

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    #182
    jcon1913
    Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭jcon1913


    laserlad2010 wrote: »
    No - it's not. However, the State only pays 25% of what is approximately 12,000-14,000 a year. In fact, as a medical student I matched what the State contributed (over 3,000 per year in fees).

    That Report quoted earlier in the thread states it in black and white.

    This is going to be extremely difficult for you to process - you, as a taxpayer (which I hope you are), did not pay a huge amount more for my medical education than many other courses. In fact, I have more than paid my fees back via the higher rate of tax.

    Should we compare tax bills? If you see the amount of tax I have paid since I graduated, enough to pay for several medical students, will you at last accept reality?

    Thats great, thanks for confirming that the cost of educating a medical student is in fact €14,000 per annum.

    I never stated that I paid it, or that the taxpayer paid it - I couldnt give a monkeys who pays for it.

    The fact that you have paid income tax on earnings is Ireland is entirely irrelevant - you do understand that?

    One last time - please point to where a reputable source discredited the OECD study from 2015? If you can then we can move on from that.


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    #183
    Arbie
    Registered Users Posts: 877 ✭✭✭Arbie


    jcon1913 wrote: »
    I have stated that an Irish undergraduate pays €3,000 in fees per year - unless they qualify for a grant. Thats the evidence.

    That's an argument, it's not evidence. You made a claim about the levels of debt that doctors graduate with where are those figures? College fees are not the only expenses that students have. You made the claim re: debt, please provide your evidence.
    jcon1913 wrote: »
    You haven't discrecited anything by a few lines in a discussion board. Where is the analysis of the 2017 report? Honestly this is beginning to wear thin.

    The data and analysis are in the report and on the OECD website. It's surely better to read the primary source rather than a 2nd-hand analysis from a paper.
    jcon1913 wrote: »
    Just because you say something it does not make it so. Do you not realise that? And no matter how many people jump in here to state that its cheap to train doctors - newsflash - it is not.

    We're all anonymous, random posters, as you said before, but I've provided evidence, as have several others. You have not. So your statement applies more to you than any other poster.
    jcon1913 wrote: »
    One last time - please point to where a reputable source discredited the OECD study from 2015? If you can then we can move on from that.

    The 2017 OECD report linked above.


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    #184
    jcon1913
    Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭jcon1913


    Arbie wrote: »
    That's an argument, it's not evidence. You made a claim about the levels of debt that doctors graduate with where are those figures? College fees are not the only expenses that students have. You made the claim re: debt, please provide your evidence.



    The data and analysis are in the report and on the OECD website. It's surely better to read the primary source rather than a 2nd-hand analysis from a paper.



    We're all anonymous, random posters, as you said before, but I've provided evidence, as have several others. You have not. So your statement applies more to you than any other poster.


    There is no need for evidence - Undergraduate Medical Students pay €3,000 per year in fees. This cohort forms the majority of the students who qualify in the Republic of Ireland.

    The data and evidence may wel lbe in the OECD report - once again I asked you to produce analysis apart from your own - and you cant.


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    #185
    Arbie
    Registered Users Posts: 877 ✭✭✭Arbie


    jcon1913 wrote: »
    There is no need for evidence - Undergraduate Medical Students pay €3,000 per year in fees. This cohort forms the majority of the students who qualify in the Republic of Ireland.

    But you said previously:
    jcon1913 wrote: »
    Most doctors leave college pretty debt-free

    Where is the evidence that doctors leave college with low debt? You said yourself they pay at least €3,000 per year in fees... and college fees are only a part of the picture. There are many other expenses to consider. Where are your numbers on this to back up your claim?
    jcon1913 wrote: »
    The data and evidence may wel lbe in the OECD report - once again I asked you to produce analysis apart from your own - and you cant.

    I can't find any analysis other than the OECD's own report. Do we even need one when we can see the numbers very clearly in the report?

    Where is the analysis of the 2015 report though? The Irish Times article wasn't an analysis, it just duplicated what was in the 2015 OECD report.


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    #186
    jcon1913
    Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭jcon1913


    Arbie wrote: »
    But you said previously:



    Where is the evidence that doctors leave college with low debt? You said yourself they pay at least €3,000 per year in fees... and college fees are only a part of the picture. There are many other expenses to consider. Where are your numbers on this to back up your claim?



    I can't find any analysis other than the OECD's own report. Do we even need one when we can see the numbers very clearly in the report?

    Where is the analysis of the 2015 report though? The Irish Times article wasn't an analysis, it just duplicated what was in the 2015 OECD report.
    I have stated the facts.

    There is nothing to back up your opinion that the 2015 OECD report is discredited - if there was you would have found it by now.

    The Irish Times ran an opinion article on the 2015 OECD report stating that Medical Consultants in Ireland were overpaid relative to their colleagues in other developed countries. Nothing you have pointed to has disproven that. It's not up to me to look for something to back up what you assert.


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    #187
    Arbie
    Registered Users Posts: 877 ✭✭✭Arbie


    jcon1913 wrote: »
    I have stated the facts.

    There is nothing to back up your opinion that the 2015 OECD report is discredited - if there was you would have found it by now.

    The Irish Times ran an opinion article on the 2015 OECD report stating that Medical Consultants in Ireland were overpaid relative to their colleagues in other developed countries. Nothing you have pointed to has disproven that. It's not up to me to look for something to back up what you assert.

    It's confirmed then that you don't have any figures on doctor debt, so we can retire that discussion.

    For anyone interested, the Irish Times article mentioned above is here: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/irish-hospital-consultants-among-world-s-best-paid-oecd-finds-1.2276783

    It's not an opinion piece or an analysis - it's a report on the contents of the OECD report with no added commentary. For example, the author Paul Cullen states: "The Irish Hospital Consultants Association says the OECD data has many inconsistencies and distortions. It says salary figures for some countries are gross, while others are net. Supplements paid to consultants in the UK are not included, while no data is provided for popular destinations for Irish doctors such as Canada." Cullen adds no comment on this, he just reports verbatim.

    Here is a letter in the same paper from a consultant criticising the report: https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/oecd-report-and-reality-of-doctors-pay-1.2280736

    The 2017 OECD report is freely available and quite clearly shows that doctors in Ireland are underpaid relative to many other EU countries.


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    #188
    jcon1913
    Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭jcon1913


    Arbie wrote: »
    It's confirmed then that you don't have any figures on doctor debt, so we can retire that discussion.

    For anyone interested, the Irish Times article mentioned above is here: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/irish-hospital-consultants-among-world-s-best-paid-oecd-finds-1.2276783

    It's not an opinion piece or an analysis - it's a report on the contents of the OECD report with no added commentary. For example, the author Paul Cullen states: "The Irish Hospital Consultants Association says the OECD data has many inconsistencies and distortions. It says salary figures for some countries are gross, while others are net. Supplements paid to consultants in the UK are not included, while no data is provided for popular destinations for Irish doctors such as Canada." Cullen adds no comment on this, he just reports verbatim.

    Here is a letter in the same paper from a consultant criticising the report: https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/oecd-report-and-reality-of-doctors-pay-1.2280736

    The 2017 OECD report is freely available and quite clearly shows that doctors in Ireland are underpaid relative to many other EU countries.
    The Irish Hospital Consultants Association is not a credible source of opinion in this matter - they are a lobbying group.

    A letter to the Irish Times by a consultant does not discredit an OECD report. He is an interested party and therefore has no standing.

    Ill come back to the issue of student debt when I have time - I hope you have more than opinions from medical consultants and lobby groups when I return.


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    #189
    Arbie
    Registered Users Posts: 877 ✭✭✭Arbie


    jcon1913 wrote: »
    The Irish Hospital Consultants Association is not a credible source of opinion in this matter - they are a lobbying group.

    A letter to the Irish Times by a consultant does not discredit an OECD report. He is an interested party and therefore has no standing.

    Ill come back to the issue of student debt when I have time - I hope you have more than opinions from medical consultants and lobby groups when I return.

    Of course they are interested parties - the point is that those are actual critiques and analysis. What you offered is an article from the Irish Times which is neither an opinion piece nor an analysis, it is just quoting pieces of the OECD report and not adding anything new.


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    #190
    laserlad2010
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭laserlad2010


    Arbie wrote: »
    Of course they are interested parties - the point is that those are actual critiques and analysis. What you offered is an article from the Irish Times which is neither an opinion piece nor an analysis, it is just quoting pieces of the OECD report and not adding anything new.

    He appears to be going around in circles.


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