Homelessness: The disgrace that is Varadkar and the Government

emo72 · 13-11-2017 08:28PM

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

What's your solution to a worldwide issue?

I notice you didn't address anything in my post. Are you here to belittle anyone that says anything negative about FG?

Is "what's your solution" a decent question? FG are a disgrace, trying to play down the homelessness emergency. I'm not going to provide solutions, not qualified. But I think I'm justified to point out blatant spin when I see it. This thread isn't how to solve homelessness, it's about the new development by Varadkar, "sure tis nothing, we're grand!"

Charles Babbage · 13-11-2017 08:31PM

I think the headlines on the newspaper site last Saturday said it all about FG priorities
"Varakar promises tax cuts"
"Tallaght Hospital without Emergency Consultant for A&E since last night"

oscarBravo · 13-11-2017 08:37PM

sdanseo wrote: »

Even from the leftmost viewpoints, how is there any argument that this should not be the case.

Irish people are not inherently more deserving than non-Irish people.

An Irish Citizen (who has paid PRSI and/or is willing and able to work and contribute to society) should trump anyone else of any origin - British, American, African, Antarctican, whatever - for state benefits.

Then should come legal residents.

You can justify that as much as you want, but you're still advocating discrimination against foreigners.

All of which is moot, because - as has been pointed out - immigration is a net positive for the economy. I was lectured earlier about supply and demand, but the lecturers seem to be ignoring the supply half - the tax revenues that immigrants contribute towards the problem - in order to concentrate on the demand aspect.

server down · 13-11-2017 08:41PM

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

It it's that simple how come no country has done this successfully?

Plenty of countries had successful social housing. The U.K. did for decades. Not only were people who couldn’t afford housing housed but private sector housing was cheaper.

JupiterKid · 13-11-2017 08:41PM

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

its all well and good having qualifications but all that proves is you can prove theories and talk about the issue.

Doing is a different matter.

And I'm not saying that to insult you but the situation on the ground is a lot more difficult. I understand that your knowledge would be of huge benefit and given your qualifications could you maybe answer a query for me in isolation.
If you look at Irish Rail (notwithstanding current difficulties) . The "Maynooth line" extends next to Edgeworthstown, Longford, Dromod, Carrick-on-Shannon, Boyle, Ballymote, Collooney and Sligo town. Those towns and surrounding ones have a large amount of vacant properties.
Would it not make sense to add a train or couple of trains extra to service those routes and populate those vacant houses?

No-one can sort the housing crisis in isolation. This is very true. We need a dedicated think tank, a task force comprised of key stakeholders, such as housing charities, local authorities, academics, the Housing Agency, Dept of Housing and Planning, Dept of Social Protection and others. This task force needs to put together a dedicated strategy to advance the housing needs of the country and to discern the appropriate requisite responses. But it will just be a hot air talking shop producing a series of reports gathering dust on a shelf if government don't take action. And action is what is needed.

Vested interests will need to be taken on, especially in the development and land owning sectors and emergency legislation will probably be needed. I'm sceptical that any govt will have the guts to take on these powerful vested interests but one thing is for certain: it won't be the current govt under Varadkar.

As for your query on the Dublin to Sligo railway line, a lot of vacant/deteriorating abandoned housing from the Celtic tiger era built under ridiculous tax incentives in the 2000s exists in these towns, such as Carrick and Edgeworthstown, but the problem is that they are simply too far to be within commuting distance from Dublin and there are few/no worthwhile jobs in these places so people don't want to live there. The future of high end employment in Ireland is in Dublin, Cork and Galway and the days of a factory in every rural town is dead and gone.

Idbatterim · 13-11-2017 08:41PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

I think the headlines on the newspaper site last Saturday said it all about FG priorities
"Varakar promises tax cuts"
"Tallaght Hospital without Emergency Consultant for A&E since last night"

the marginal rate is so anti enterprise and employment it's ridiculous.

Wheeliebin30 · 13-11-2017 08:46PM

server down wrote: »

Plenty of countries had successful social housing. The U.K. did for decades. Not only were people who couldn’t afford housing housed but private sector housing was cheaper.

The UK has 150,000 homeless people.

Obviously there solution didnt work.

Next?

blanch152 · 13-11-2017 08:55PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

No-one can sort the housing crisis in isolation. This is very true. We need a dedicated think tank, a task force comprised of key stakeholders, such as housing charities, local authorities, academics, the Housing Agency, Dept of Housing and Planning, Dept of Social Protection and others. This task force needs to put together a dedicated strategy to advance the housing needs of the country and to discern the appropriate requisite responses. But it will just be a hot air talking shop producing a series of reports gathering dust on a shelf if government don't take action. And action is what is needed.

The task force has already been set up, met and developed a strategy:

http://rebuildingireland.ie/

JupiterKid wrote: »

Vested interests will need to be taken on, especially in the development and land owning sectors and emergency legislation will probably be needed. I'm sceptical that any govt will have the guts to take on these powerful vested interests but one thing is for certain: it won't be the current govt under Varadkar.

You need to be realistic, no government is going to make those changes. They will require constitutional amendments to property rights that no house-owner or farmer (or anyone who aspires to such) will vote for. Not going to happen so suggest something that might happen.

JupiterKid wrote: »

As for your query on the Dublin to Sligo railway line, a lot of vacant/deteriorating abandoned housing from the Celtic tiger era built under ridiculous tax incentives in the 2000s exists in these towns, such as Carrick and Edgeworthstown, but the problem is that they are simply too far to be within commuting distance from Dublin and there are few/no worthwhile jobs in these places so people don't want to live there. The future of high end employment in Ireland is in Dublin, Cork and Galway and the days of a factory in every rural town is dead and gone.

http://npf.ie/

The National Planning Framework which will replace the disastorous Spatial Strategy policy of the FF government will address these issues. I assume that you have made a submission to this given your expertise in the area. The deadline was last Friday. Which of the 664 was yours?

emo72 · 13-11-2017 08:58PM

Where is the logic of focus Ireland paying 2000 euro a month to a private landlord rather than building social housing. It would be even cheaper to buy a house and pay a mortgage surely. This makes no sense. We built houses in the 50s, 60s and 70s when we were smashed. Back then governments had a social conscience. Now they don't. It's a free market, and that's they only show in town.

I'm coming from this as a tax payer who has worked all his life and made my own way in life, I want them to build houses for people that cant afford them. Even middle class kids can't buy houses, what chance have poor kids got? None. This housing situation is not normal.

ThisRegard · 13-11-2017 09:04PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

And I would kindly request you not to pick apart my assertions. I am well capable of measured debate and yes, I perhaps made some factual inaccuracies in my initial post but picking on these comes across as rather petty.

You can't start a thread and in your opening post use untruths and then ask people not to point out that your argument is on shaky foundations and then tell those that do that they're the ones. The tone of your initial post may have raised hackles and lead people to think you had a particular motivation, that's all.

server down · 13-11-2017 09:06PM

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

The UK has 150,000 homeless people.

Obviously there solution didnt work.

Next?

Yes because along came Thatcher and ..

If you don’t know any history here you won’t have much to contribute.

server down · 13-11-2017 09:08PM

emo72 wrote: »

Where is the logic of focus Ireland paying 2000 euro a month to a private landlord rather than building social housing. It would be even cheaper to buy a house and pay a mortgage surely. This makes no sense. We built houses in the 50s, 60s and 70s when we were smashed. Back then governments had a social conscience. Now they don't. It's a free market, and that's they only show in town.

I'm coming from this as a tax payer who has worked all his life and made my own way in life, I want them to build houses for people that cant afford them. Even middle class kids can't buy houses, what chance have poor kids got? None. This housing situation is not normal.

Yes but right wingers don’t get that. Hell I’m moderately right wing myself but I get it. It should be obvious that owning housing stock and getting rent in costs less than paying private rent out.

Wheeliebin30 · 13-11-2017 09:11PM

server down wrote: »

Yes but right wingers don’t get that. Hell I’m moderately right wing myself but I get it. It should be obvious that owning housing stock and getting rent in costs less than paying private rent.

You have to build the houses first.

Have you a cost of all this seems youre sure its cheaper?

emo72 · 13-11-2017 09:18PM

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

You have to build the houses first.

Have you a cost of all this seems youre sure its cheaper?

Governments can borrow money. Germany broke the fiscal rules when it suited them. No problem. We need to borrow money and break the rules. It's a national emergency. I wake up and go to work every morning. I'm the type of person that should be supporting Varadkar. But I'm not thinking of myself, or a political party, I'm thinking of what it's like to be on the streets tonight, absolutely miserable out. Stop trying to appease our German paymasters and look after our people. Have some balls Varadkar.

Wheeliebin30 · 13-11-2017 09:37PM

emo72 wrote: »

Governments can borrow money. Germany broke the fiscal rules when it suited them. No problem. We need to borrow money and break the rules. It's a national emergency. I wake up and go to work every morning. I'm the type of person that should be supporting Varadkar. But I'm not thinking of myself, or a political party, I'm thinking of what it's like to be on the streets tonight, absolutely miserable out. Stop trying to appease our German paymasters and look after our people. Have some balls Varadkar.

What about people like johnathan corrie who sold 2 houses and refused help from his family and accommodation the night he died?

Is your solution to just build a house and he will be in out of the rain?

emo72 · 13-11-2017 09:50PM

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

What about people like johnathan corrie who sold 2 houses and refused help from his family and accommodation the night he died?

Is your solution to just build a house and he will be in out of the rain?

mate thats called whataboutery. please dont be disengenuous. its an absolute given that there are people who have severe psychological issues.

my poor tortured hands · 13-11-2017 09:54PM

Leo is pathetic. In some countries being gay is a punishable offence, should we measure ourselves against those countries also?

All we have to do is build the houses. Allow high rises in Dubvlin. Allow doctors to treat sick children using whatever medicines the doctor believes is best. Remove the criminals who are running our police force and if there was a conspiracy among the garda and officials in the Dept of Justice then that also needs to be exposed and rooted out. Stop with the constant lies and corruption. Give the Irish a vote on leaving Europe and forging ahead with the Brits, and seceding from the increasingly anti democratic EU.

I don't expect any of it to happen.

Wheeliebin30 · 13-11-2017 09:57PM

emo72 wrote: »

mate thats called whataboutery. please dont be disengenuous. its an absolute given that there are people who have severe psychological issues.

So you admit it's a lot more complex than just building social houses and hey presto its solved?

As I said every country has homelessness.

Unfortunately there is no solution to it yet.

oscarBravo · 13-11-2017 10:03PM

my poor tortured hands wrote: »

[...] Give the Irish a vote on leaving Europe and forging ahead with the Brits, and seceding from the increasingly anti democratic EU.

I don't expect any of it to happen.

Thank goodness for that.

emo72 · 13-11-2017 10:17PM

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

So you admit it's a lot more complex than just building social houses and hey presto its solved?

As I said every country has homelessness.

Unfortunately there is no solution to it yet.

well actually yes. just build social housing and the problem will be solved for 99% of people who need houses. there are always a tiny minority of people who have psychological issues, and maybe our mental health services, if they ever get up to scratch will help them.

sorry wheeliebin, are you a fg voter? you seem severely invested in them. every country has homelessness, but we have a national emergency in homelessness. and now we have some serious spinning fom varadkar saying its only average, nothing to see here. is any criticism allowed? they can spin all they want. anyone with half a brain can see through it. and then FG supporters will always try defend them. its the same the world over.

blanch152 · 13-11-2017 11:02PM

emo72 wrote: »

Governments can borrow money. Germany broke the fiscal rules when it suited them. No problem. We need to borrow money and break the rules. It's a national emergency. I wake up and go to work every morning. I'm the type of person that should be supporting Varadkar. But I'm not thinking of myself, or a political party, I'm thinking of what it's like to be on the streets tonight, absolutely miserable out. Stop trying to appease our German paymasters and look after our people. Have some balls Varadkar.

We are not Germany.

We borrow money and break the rules, nobody will lend to us. We won't be able to rollover debt and if we do, we will pay a higher interest rate.

Multinationals won't invest in a country that isn't reliable.

The economy will tank as a result but hey, when we are all homeless, we'll all be the same.

server down · 13-11-2017 11:20PM

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

You have to build the houses first.

Have you a cost of all this seems youre sure its cheaper?

Issue bonds. Build the houses. Replace rental income outgoings with rental income incomings.

server down · 13-11-2017 11:22PM

blanch152 wrote: »

We are not Germany.

We borrow money and break the rules, nobody will lend to us. We won't be able to rollover debt and if we do, we will pay a higher interest rate.

Multinationals won't invest in a country that isn't reliable.

The economy will tank as a result but hey, when we are all homeless, we'll all be the same.

That’s the neo-liberal consensus alright. No borrowing for infrastructure. Bank bailouts, yes.

Stheno · 13-11-2017 11:22PM

server down wrote: »

Issue bonds. Build the houses. Replace rental income outgoings with rental income incomings.

Rental income into the council's?

emo72 · 13-11-2017 11:45PM

blanch152 wrote: »

We are not Germany.

We borrow money and break the rules, nobody will lend to us. We won't be able to rollover debt and if we do, we will pay a higher interest rate.

Multinationals won't invest in a country that isn't reliable.

The economy will tank as a result but hey, when we are all homeless, we'll all be the same.

where is the 2000 a month coming from to pay peoples rent? thats yours and my money being spent.

theres sheds loads of money to pay massive rent indefinitely. but no money to build houses. lads we'll do absolutely anything but build houses. its not gonna be enough. it wont work. i know too many people in their 20s who cant buy, cant rent. they are stuck with parents, lets wait and see how this pans out. it will be fun when the next election comes around.

JupiterKid · 13-11-2017 11:50PM

blanch152 wrote: »

What does being an expert in the housing arena mean? A builder, a bricklayer, an electrician, an architect, a structural engineer, a quantity surveyor, etc. are all experts in the housing arena, but I wouldn't listen to any of them in regard to planning needs. Qualified planners, economists etc. could provide an input but many of them are too distant from everyday needs to provide enlightened advice. The short answer therefore is that someone who claims to be an expert in the housing arena is probably too close to the problem to be able to see the correct solution in a big picture context.

As for the 100,000, how many of them do we need to house? Around 40% of these are on rent supplement. Is that a better way of ensuring their housing needs? Or even some of them? Have you an analysis that answers that question, not just based on their wishes.

44% of those on the social housing list were single-person households looking for their own accommodation. Does that mean house-sharing, as hundreds of thousands of us did over the years is no longer acceptable?

What we have, and the rest of your post deals with it credibly, is a group of people who are unhappy with their current accommodation, they are house-sharing or they receive rent supplement and want to live so

However, seeing as you are an expert, perhaps you could explain which parts of the rebuilding Ireland plan won't work and where you will get any extra funding needed for any changes you would like to make.

http://rebuildingireland.ie/

It is clear that you do not understand the budgetary process.

I'm well aware of the "rebuilding Ireland" plan and it's very obvious to me and others that's it's just no-where near enough to properly tackle the housing crisis. It's lip service in my opinion. It's just window dressing to make the electorate think the govt are doing something meaningful.

And I would also greatly appreciate a slightly less patronising and condescending tone to your replies to my posts.

blanch152 · 13-11-2017 11:53PM

emo72 wrote: »

where is the 2000 a month coming from to pay peoples rent? thats yours and my money being spent.

theres sheds loads of money to pay massive rent indefinitely. but no money to build houses. lads we'll do absolutely anything but build houses. its not gonna be enough. it wont work. i know too many people in their 20s who cant buy, cant rent. they are stuck with parents, lets wait and see how this pans out. it will be fun when the next election comes around.

In the same way that many people cannot qualify for a mortgage because the banks don't believe they can repay the money, Ireland does not qualify for deficit spending because the banks don't believe they can repay the money.

In the same way that many people can pay rent above the cost of a mortgage and the bank still won't lend them the money, well Ireland the same.

And still we have those who believe we can just borrow the money!!! Try telling that to the bank next time your mortgage is refused.

What is absolutely amazing about this debate is that people can only rant and rave about the government. I posted a link to the government's plan and not one person has looked at it and explained how or why it wouldn't work and how or why their idea is better and could be financed. Here it is again for those who missed it:

http://rebuildingireland.ie/

blanch152 · 13-11-2017 11:56PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

I'm well aware of the "rebuilding Ireland" plan and it's very obvious to me and others that's it's just no-where near enough to properly tackle the housing crisis. It's lip service in my opinion. It's just window dressing to make the electorate think the govt are doing something meaningful.

And I would also greatly appreciate a slightly less patronising and condescending tone to your replies to my posts.

You still haven't explained what is wrong with the Rebuilding Ireland plan, how it should be changed, and how those changes could be financed within the existing fiscal envelope. Without those details your views are as good or bad as anyone else's. You claim credibility for expertise but all we have seen is criticism, not expertise.

emo72 · 14-11-2017 12:04AM

blanch152 wrote: »

What is absolutely amazing about this debate is that people can only rant and rave about the government.

http://rebuildingireland.ie/

ranting and raving? i thought my posts were very measured. i dont agree with varadkar saying we dont really have anything unusual going on with housing. in fairness thats a bit rich and far fetched. he is taking the proverbial. im ponting out that the guy is spinning for ireland. and youd have to be gullible to believe him. some people think hes great. i think hes a terrible taoiseach. but in fairness im an equal oportunist dissenter, theres hardly anyone in the dail worthy.

JupiterKid · 14-11-2017 03:03AM

blanch152 wrote: »

You still haven't explained what is wrong with the Rebuilding Ireland plan, how it should be changed, and how those changes could be financed within the existing fiscal envelope. Without those details your views are as good or bad as anyone else's. You claim credibility for expertise but all we have seen is criticism, not expertise.

I'm frankly not going to create a 5 or 10 page post here that would outline my main ideas. Instead, I'm working on a report with colleagues detailing an alternative strategy to fast track social housing provision. I don't have to justify myself to you or anyone else for that matter. You can doubt/question my qualifications and expertise all you like but I'm self assured in the knowledge that I know my stuff.

You'll just have to keep guessing.

You certainly seem to know all the answers yourself so I certainly can't seem to compete with your largesse.

Frankly I'm done with this thread. I've made my points on the issue very much clear. I won't be justifying my research and policy analysis to boards. It's just not the appropriate forum in any way. I won't deign to get into a protracted argument on this issue but I stand by my assertion that this government is not committed to tacking this housing crisis.

Homelessness: The disgrace that is Varadkar and the Government

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