Homelessness: The disgrace that is Varadkar and the Government

JupiterKid

When Leo Varadkar assumed office of Taoiseach he did the obligatory lap of honour, with the international media fawning over his sexuality and mixed ethnicity, making out the Ireland was now such a modern, progressive society. He was photographed comparing socks (WTF??) with Canadian premier Justin Trudeau.

But look at his record. As Minister for Health, he slashed the already paltry budget for mental health services, an utterly reprehensible act in my view. Irish mental health services are among the worst in the developed world and need more funding, not less. Look at the suicide rates amongst our young. Also, as a gay man myself I found it a bit disingenious that Varadkar chose to come out shortly before the same sex marriage referendum, which if you may not recall he originally opposed.

But then again, our public health system is in a mess generally as a brief stint in A&E in a major Dublin hospital showed me. Very unwell people left on trolleys in corridors for hours, overworked nurses and doctors and taking 11 hours to be seen by a doctor over a heart complaint.

Then there is Varadkar's statement on the housing crisis being over-exaggerated by charities and housing agencies. The pure gall of him to make such a flippant statement. Dublin has a serious housing emergency, a major social housing building programme would go a long way to solving that situation but no, the private market and the banking sector must prevail at all costs. I honestly can't see the situation changing one iota unless a general election takes place.

IMO Leo is a neo-liberal Thatcherite who talks the talk, but can't walk the walk. He has zero interest in the most vulnerable in Irish society. Sadly, I don't see many votes in mental health issues or housing issues, except to ensure those in the know and with connections ensure their over-inflated dwellings continue to rise in price.

It's a sad spectacle and IMO Leo is no supporter in social justice or equality, in any shape or form. The current minority FG govt are a lame duck. They seem to have no ability to tackle serious pressing social problems, particularly with housing and health. Where is the sense of vision? Where is the sense of doing things for the good of Irish society as a whole? I sure don't see it.

server down

While I agree with some of that the day to day running of a hospital isn’t the fault of the minister, there’s a lot of management not managing.

Housing - he doesn’t have a clue.

JupiterKid

But surely the buck stops at the Minister? He or she is the ultimate individual who makes the key and critical decisions on their respective portfolios.

And I was disgusted to find out that Varadkar slashed funding for the mental health sector, already one of the poorest and least resourced in Europe.

The current government is a lame duck and the sooner they at removed from office the better. The idea of FF in power is even less appealing, but something needs to be done because the current situation is a real mess.

There is no real vision for Ireland and Irish society. Self-serving lobby groups seem to rule to roost. It's depressing.

blanch152

JupiterKid wrote: »

When Leo Varadkar assumed office of Taoiseach he did the obligatory lap of honour, with the international media fawning over his sexuality and mixed ethnicity, making out the Ireland was now such a modern, progressive society. He was photographed comparing socks (WTF??) with Canadian premier Pierre Trudeau.

But look at his record. As Minister for Health, he slashed the already paltry budget for mental health services, an utterly reprehensible act in my view. Irish mental health services are among the worst in the developed world and need more funding, not less. Look at the suicide rates amongst our young. Also, as a gay man myself I found it a bit disingenious that Varadkar chose to come out shortly before the same sex marriage referendum, which if you may not recall he originally opposed.

But then again, our public health system is in a mess generally as a brief stint in A&E in a major Dublin hospital showed me. Very unwell people left on trolleys in corridors for hours, overworked nurses and doctors and taking 11 hours to be seen by a doctor over a heart complaint.

Then there is Varadkar's statement on the housing crisis being over-exaggerated by charities and housing agencies. The pure gall of him to make such a flippant statement. Dublin has a serious housing emergency, a major social housing building programme would go a long way to solving that situation but no, the private market and the banking sector must prevail at all costs. I honestly can't see the situation changing one iota unless a general election takes place.

IMO Leo is a neo-liberal Thatcherite who talks the talk, but can't walk the walk. He has zero interest in the most vulnerable in Irish society. Sadly, I don't see many votes in mental health issues or housing issues, except to ensure those in the know and with connections ensure their over-inflated dwellings continue to rise in price.

It's a sad spectacle and IMO Leo is no supporter in social justice or equality, in any shape or form. The current minority FG govt are a lame duck. They seem to have no ability to tackle serious pressing social problems, particularly with housing and health. Where is the sense of vision? Where is the sense of doing things for the good of Irish society as a whole? I sure don't see it.

Not a single link to back up anything you say.

In your first paragraph, you draw attention to his sexuality and lineage. Neither of them are relevant to his ability as a leader. Neither does your own status as a gay man add or detract from your comments on Varadkar, so why the need to state it?

I would love to see his "statement on the housing crisis being over-exaggerated by charities and housing agencies". What I recall him saying clearly was that "by international standards homelessness in Ireland is low." That has a very different meaning to your statement.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1111/919200-fine-gael-national-conference/

The rest of your post contains similarly wrong points that don't reflect what Varadkar has actually said.

FreudianSlippers

Let me get this out of the way up front. I'm not a fan of FG in particular and find their centre-left politic incredibly underwhelming. But there are some significant factual issues here.

JupiterKid wrote: »

When Leo Varadkar assumed office of Taoiseach he did the obligatory lap of honour, with the international media fawning over his sexuality and mixed ethnicity, making out the Ireland was now such a modern, progressive society. He was photographed comparing socks (WTF??) with Canadian premier Pierre Trudeau.

Nonsense. Varadkar was in Canada for three days. The media photographed their socks, but it's patently nonsense to claim that they were "comparing socks"; admittedly, as part of the gift that was given it is correct that Varadkar did gift Trudau socks, but it was not the crux of their discussion.

But look at his record. As Minister for Health, he slashed the already paltry budget for mental health services, an utterly reprehensible act in my view.

2015 opening mental health budget: €756.8m*
2015 closing mental health budget: €792.4m*
2016 maximum budget: €826.6m* (I'm sure you can find the closing figure on this and it will be higher than this figure, but I don't feel like searching for it at the moment.)

This represents a 4.4%* year-on-year increase in mental health key financials.

(*source HSE 2017 National Service Plan)

Irish mental health services are among the worst in the developed world and need more funding, not less. Look at the suicide rates amongst our young.

Given we've dealt with the fact that funding is, in fact, increasing we can skip touching on that point again and move on.

Secondly, WHO statistics show that Ireland is firmly in the middle with regard to mental health services in Europe. WHO's mental health atlas compares Europe (not Ireland specifically, but if we understand Ireland is firmly in the middle of Europe, it helps to extrapolate) Europe has 20% more population coverage for mental health services than countries that have a mental health policy at a governmental level and roughly on par to countries that have a governmental plan to implement those policies.

Therefore, it can be deduced that mental health services in Ireland are significantly better than most countries in the developed world and squarely in the middle when compared to first-world counties.

But then again, our public health system is in a mess generally as a brief stint in A&E in a major Dublin hospital showed me. Very unwell people left on trolleys in corridors for hours, overworked nurses and doctors and taking 11 hours to be seen by a doctor over a heart complaint.

We spend €14.6bn on health... throwing more money at it is not going to solve the problem.


The remainder of the post is hyperbole and merely moans about a situation without comprehending the underlying factors or explaining how it's proposed these policies will (i) be paid for or implemented (ii) actually solve the outlined problems.

Muahahaha

JupiterKid wrote: »

Also, as a gay man myself I found it a bit disingenious that Varadkar chose to come out shortly before the same sex marriage referendum, which if you may not recall he originally opposed.

For me this is very telling of Varadkars character. I would presume he knew he was gay for at least a decade before he came out. During this time he was involved in politics and yet he never spoke up about improving rights for the LGBT community. The fact he opposed same sex marriage initially leads me to think that he is not a conviction politician and nor is he a leader in the true sense. He sat on the fence and only when polls made it obvious that the referendum was going to carry did he finally campaign for the idea. Others in the campaign like Zappone, GLEN had done all of the heavy lifting for more than a decade and then when Leo sniffs the tide shifting he hops upon a bandwagon and acts like he actually had something to do with getting the referendum passed.

As for other parts of his performance only recently I am trying to think of anything of substance he has actually achieved in politics. In Health or the DSP I cant actually think of anything that stands out.

James Brown

JupiterKid wrote: »

When Leo Varadkar assumed office of Taoiseach he did the obligatory lap of honour, with the international media fawning over his sexuality and mixed ethnicity, making out the Ireland was now such a modern, progressive society. He was photographed comparing socks (WTF??) with Canadian premier Pierre Trudeau.

But look at his record. As Minister for Health, he slashed the already paltry budget for mental health services, an utterly reprehensible act in my view. Irish mental health services are among the worst in the developed world and need more funding, not less. Look at the suicide rates amongst our young. Also, as a gay man myself I found it a bit disingenious that Varadkar chose to come out shortly before the same sex marriage referendum, which if you may not recall he originally opposed.

But then again, our public health system is in a mess generally as a brief stint in A&E in a major Dublin hospital showed me. Very unwell people left on trolleys in corridors for hours, overworked nurses and doctors and taking 11 hours to be seen by a doctor over a heart complaint.

Then there is Varadkar's statement on the housing crisis being over-exaggerated by charities and housing agencies. The pure gall of him to make such a flippant statement. Dublin has a serious housing emergency, a major social housing building programme would go a long way to solving that situation but no, the private market and the banking sector must prevail at all costs. I honestly can't see the situation changing one iota unless a general election takes place.

IMO Leo is a neo-liberal Thatcherite who talks the talk, but can't walk the walk. He has zero interest in the most vulnerable in Irish society. Sadly, I don't see many votes in mental health issues or housing issues, except to ensure those in the know and with connections ensure their over-inflated dwellings continue to rise in price.

It's a sad spectacle and IMO Leo is no supporter in social justice or equality, in any shape or form. The current minority FG govt are a lame duck. They seem to have no ability to tackle serious pressing social problems, particularly with housing and health. Where is the sense of vision? Where is the sense of doing things for the good of Irish society as a whole? I sure don't see it.

It's Justin Trudeau, (Pierre, his father).
Varadkar is a disgrace regarding homelessness and his view on it. He was very wrong to say what he did, but it fits with his attitude and over all manner.

At the Fine Gael national conference in Co Cavan at the weekend the Taoiseach said that by international standards homelessness in Ireland is low.
Mr Varadkar said the Government was committed to “turning the tide” on the issue in the months and years ahead.
The Minister for Housing Eoghan Murphy told the conference that “comparatively our rates of homelessness are low when we look at our peers, and that is a good thing”.
Mr Skehan said it was a mistake for governments of the past to outsource the building of social houses to the private sector.
“Homelessness is a dreadful thing, but it is normal. The key issue is how we as a society deal with it, how quickly, how effectively,” Mr Skehan said.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/housing-agency-says-homelessness-is-dreadful-but-normal-1.3289882

It's the height of whataboutery. We are use to it, sadly, in political debate, but using it to sideline a national crisis is nothing short of disgraceful.
Plans to turn the tide in the coming months and years is plain waffle, going by their disinterest in the issue. The main moves so far involve milking the tax payer to support the housing industry.

An interesting comment from a vested interest in the homeless industry, (similar to the ministerial vested interests in the 'nothing to see here'/housing industry);

However, Niamh Randall, of the Simon Community, said that if the Government doesn’t take stock of the situation then “absolutely it is doing something wrong.”
She said that the homelessness figures in Ireland are “huge” by international standards.
“We need to do something differently. The private sector cannot deal with the problem. The question is, are we an economy or are we a society?”
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/housing-agency-says-homelessness-is-dreadful-but-normal-1.3289882

"The question is, are we an economy or are we a society?" Indeed.

FreudianSlippers

This false dichotomy between economy / society is absolute nonsense in the truest meaning - it makes no sense. People may dislike the fact that homelessness exists, but when viewed comparatively we're no worse than any other nations. Nobody on the "society" side seems to be aware of the fact that building massive amounts of social housing isn't going to solve homelessness in the slightest.

server down

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

This false dichotomy between economy / society is absolute nonsense in the truest meaning - it makes no sense. People may dislike the fact that homelessness exists, but when viewed comparatively we're no worse than any other nations. Nobody on the "society" side seems to be aware of the fact that building massive amounts of social housing isn't going to solve homelessness in the slightest.

Well yes and no. It wont solve traditional homelessness ( because some people cant actually run a household) but there are recent homeless people who could be housed.

FreudianSlippers

server down wrote: »

Well yes and no. It wont solve traditional homelessness ( because some people cant actually run a household) but there are recent homeless people who could be housed.

So are you suggesting that we put homeless people at the top of the social housing queue without question?

JupiterKid

There are close to 100,000 people on the housing waiting list. Are you seriously telling me that not building social housing will relieve the problem? I'm actually an expert in the housing arena and I do actually know my stuff about housing and housing market dynamics.

What has happened since we wound down the social house building programme since the early 1990s is that we have relied on the private sector, the private rented sector in particular, to pick up the slack and house low income households via rent allowance. This has in effect distorted the housing system by pricing many young professionals trying to save for a mortgage out of the private rented sector as many landlords saw the rent allowance as a gold ticket. It's a total mess. Plus there's a massive under supply of new housing that is adding to the housing crisis. And yes, it is a crisis in every sense of the word. For Varadkar to minimise the housing crisis was disingenuous at best and downright heinous at worst.

When Ireland was a young and poor country, it was able to engage in a mammoth social house building programme that rehoused tens of thousands of families from tenements and slums. Many of our parents and grandparents directly benefited from these schemes. But now that Ireland is wealthy, apparently we can't (or most likely wont) commit to such a programme. Why? Because of neo-liberal economic policies that sees "the market" as the be all and end all. Housing is not a perfect market - government intervention is required to ensure families have a roof over their head and shelter is a basic human right.

The housing market has completely failed both the under-privilidged and young of this country, but I suppose they tend not to vote. The votes come primarily from those who have a vested interested in seeing their property prices rise inexorably. And of course the banks (see the tracker mortgage scandal) need protecting and bailing out too.

I'm aware health is a money pit, but As Health Minister, Varadkar did cut funding for mental health which is utterly shameful. Mental health is utterly inadequate in this country. An utter disgrace. The suicide rate in this country is a real tragedy.

https://www.her.ie/news/leo-varadkar-has-confirmed-cuts-to-the-mental-health-budget-288853

As for his sexuality, I did think it relevant to bring that up as Varadkar only came out just before the same sex referendum vote and originally opposed it. A total about face if I ever saw one. As for the others in govt, Frances Fitzgerald is utterly inept and as Minister for Justice made a massive mess of the Garda scandals.

Coveney is somewhat better and seems more genuine but also seems ineffectual. We need a change of government but I despise FF and Sinn Fein and would abhor any sort of coalition between them. FF are holding FG over a barrel politically and are biding their time. The only hope I see is a FG/Labour coalition with a strong Labour position and a Labour Minister of Housing who might have have the guts to devise a robust, effective housing policy. I will make no apologies for being a longstanding Labour supporter. I also like the fledgling Social Democrats.

Also, are the current govt really doing enough about articulating their concerns over Brexit and the nightmare scenario of a (as I see it unworkable) hard border with Northern Ireland.

And I think it's a bit disingenuous to try to correct me as I see the big picture and don't like it one iota. It's patently clear that there are a few FG acolytes on this thread who pounced in to defend their party and its leader. Varadkar and his ilk care not one jot about the most vulnerable in our society.

But let's face it, on social issues, the current government are floundering.

Idbatterim

IMO Leo is a neo-liberal Thatcherite who talks the talk, but can't walk the walk.

I agree about him talking the talk and backing nothing up. There was more reporting about the excessive rate of marginal tax and the rate you hit it just the other day. Well wasnt there a budget just gone where he makes some token gesture to the outrageous rate? He's a spoofer. As far as I am concerned any welfare rises are cowardly and a disgrace with the infrastructure deficit, national debt, outrageous marginal rate, the health situation etc...

James Brown

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

This false dichotomy between economy / society is absolute nonsense in the truest meaning - it makes no sense. People may dislike the fact that homelessness exists, but when viewed comparatively we're no worse than any other nations. Nobody on the "society" side seems to be aware of the fact that building massive amounts of social housing isn't going to solve homelessness in the slightest.

With respect, you are making the false assumption that the 'society side' is a thing. It's a simple matter of balance. It's typical Fine Gael fare to cause division. Concentrating on the economy does not work. It may help the economy in the short term but any economy needs a functioning society and vice versa. Fine Gaels reluctance to recognise this and the homeless crisis as significant, is the problem as borne out by Varadkar's attitude.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

So are you suggesting that we put homeless people at the top of the social housing queue without question?

Engaging in extremes is not the way to solve anything. It was and is a case by case issue.
The problem here seems to be Varadkars dismissive attitude. Essentially saying it's no worse than elsewhere, is not helpful and shows poor leadership, or more accurately, poor intent to lead, regarding housing and homelessness.

Idbatterim

I totally agree about the dismissiveness about the housing crisis! This situation is a national disgrace and I am not talking about only if you are homeless! I am talkng about the lack of property available, how **** a lot of it is, the fortune you have to pay for somewhere that isnt a kip! If you can even manage to secure a viewing, never mind actually land the place!

James Brown

Idbatterim wrote: »

I totally agree about the dismissiveness about the housing crisis! This situation is a national disgrace and I am not talking about only if you are homeless! I am talkng about the lack of property available, how **** a lot of it is, the fortune you have to pay for somewhere that isnt a kip! If you can even manage to secure a viewing, never mind actually land the place!

If you are working full time, you should be able to afford rent. An economy reliant on tax payer handouts, is not a healthy economy.

Idbatterim

the property crisis is disgusting! Like has been mentioned though, it suits them and many of the snake hangers on, i.e. the banks etc!

The thing is to sort it out, doesnt actually require billions thrown at it! It requires changes to planning legislation mainly! It might upset a few vested interests and current homeowners though, thats they problem, those decision makers adopting the "im alright jack" approach... throw out a few meaningless lines to make out they actually give a toss about the situation... :rolleyes:

DickSwiveller

Why hasn't anyone mentioned immigration in relation to housing? As far as I know, the people who come here don't bring a house with them, and so add to the demand. Yet it's never mentioned. Why is that?

Re Homelessness. The problem is much more difficult than posters on here make out. It's very hard to help a lot of homeless people because they have lots of other problems.

oscarBravo

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Why hasn't anyone mentioned immigration in relation to housing? As far as I know, the people who come here don't bring a house with them, and so add to the demand. Yet it's never mentioned. Why is that?

Because it's only brought up by people who seem to believe that immigrants are less deserving of a place to live than non-immigrants?

Idbatterim

Because it's only brought up by people who seem to believe that immigrants are less deserving of a place to live than non-immigrants?

many immigrants here have probably lived here before and contributed to irish society, they may have left during the recession for better prospects or because they were made redundant. They are infinitely more worthy of housing than the thousands with their free housing here, who's furthest commute weekly is the dole office and perhaps Spain once a year!

emo72

The spin machine is well and truly cranked into gear regarding the "normalisation of homelessness". I'm not sure it's working.

Sleeper12

I'm anything but a FG fan. I promised myself to give FG a chance under new management.

I like that they come out and admit that there is a problem there. Homeless is a classic example. Yes we have a terrible homeless crisis and it will take us time to get on top of it. I prefer this to promising no home person will be in a hotel or hostel in 6 months time.

Here's something worth thinking about, Leo's FG have gone longer than Endas without shooting themselves in the foot.

I don't know if I like this government or not. The jury is still out. So far I think that they are far better than the last FG government. They haven't done anything stupid yet and I like that

beefburrito

emo72 wrote: »

The spin machine is well and truly cranked into gear regarding the "normalisation of homelessness". I'm not sure it's working.

I can see Leo now on his rainbow coloured rollerblades doing a twirl and showing off his Lion King socks....

blanch152

JupiterKid wrote: »

There are close to 100,000 people on the housing waiting list. Are you seriously telling me that not building social housing will relieve the problem? I'm actually an expert in the housing arena and I do actually know my stuff about housing and housing market dynamics.

What does being an expert in the housing arena mean? A builder, a bricklayer, an electrician, an architect, a structural engineer, a quantity surveyor, etc. are all experts in the housing arena, but I wouldn't listen to any of them in regard to planning needs. Qualified planners, economists etc. could provide an input but many of them are too distant from everyday needs to provide enlightened advice. The short answer therefore is that someone who claims to be an expert in the housing arena is probably too close to the problem to be able to see the correct solution in a big picture context.

As for the 100,000, how many of them do we need to house? Around 40% of these are on rent supplement. Is that a better way of ensuring their housing needs? Or even some of them? Have you an analysis that answers that question, not just based on their wishes.

44% of those on the social housing list were single-person households looking for their own accommodation. Does that mean house-sharing, as hundreds of thousands of us did over the years is no longer acceptable?

What we have, and the rest of your post deals with it credibly, is a group of people who are unhappy with their current accommodation, they are house-sharing or they receive rent supplement and want to live somewhere else. So do lots of people who own their own houses.

In order to get a true and real picture of homelessness, we need to disaggregate the 90,000 (not 100,000) figure and find out how many of them are in real need of housing. This is not clear.

JupiterKid wrote: »

What has happened since we wound down the social house building programme since the early 1990s is that we have relied on the private sector, the private rented sector in particular, to pick up the slack and house low income households via rent allowance. This has in effect distorted the housing system by pricing many young professionals trying to save for a mortgage out of the private rented sector as many landlords saw the rent allowance as a gold ticket. It's a total mess. Plus there's a massive under supply of new housing that is adding to the housing crisis. And yes, it is a crisis in every sense of the word. For Varadkar to minimise the housing crisis was disingenuous at best and downright heinous at worst.

When Ireland was a young and poor country, it was able to engage in a mammoth social house building programme that rehoused tens of thousands of families from tenements and slums. Many of our parents and grandparents directly benefited from these schemes. But now that Ireland is wealthy, apparently we can't (or most likely wont) commit to such a programme. Why? Because of neo-liberal economic policies that sees "the market" as the be all and end all. Housing is not a perfect market - government intervention is required to ensure families have a roof over their head and shelter is a basic human right.

The housing market has completely failed both the under-privilidged and young of this country, but I suppose they tend not to vote. The votes come primarily from those who have a vested interested in seeing their property prices rise inexorably. And of course the banks (see the tracker mortgage scandal) need protecting and bailing out too.

Shelter is a basic human right, a house in your favoured location close to your favourite pub or other facility is not a basic human right.

However, seeing as you are an expert, perhaps you could explain which parts of the rebuilding Ireland plan won't work and where you will get any extra funding needed for any changes you would like to make.


http://rebuildingireland.ie/

JupiterKid wrote: »

I'm aware health is a money pit, but As Health Minister, Varadkar did cut funding for mental health which is utterly shameful. Mental health is utterly inadequate in this country. An utter disgrace. The suicide rate in this country is a real tragedy.

https://www.her.ie/news/leo-varadkar-has-confirmed-cuts-to-the-mental-health-budget-288853

It is clear that you do not understand the budgetary process.

Varadkar provided for an increase in mental health provision in 2016, however the HSE was unable to put in place the recruitment and other measures necessary for the delivery of increased mental health services. Rather than having the money left unspent, it was diverted to other services.

This was spun as a cut and you fell for it. It is all there in your own link but the journalist didn't understand it either. The fault lay with the HSE being unable to spend the money allocated for mental health services.

JupiterKid wrote: »

As for his sexuality, I did think it relevant to bring that up as Varadkar only came out just before the same sex referendum vote and originally opposed it. A total about face if I ever saw one. As for the others in govt, Frances Fitzgerald is utterly inept and as Minister for Justice made a massive mess of the Garda scandals.

It is completely irrelevant to bring up his sexuality. Who cares?

It seems that rather than him using it to political advantage, it is his detractors who are attempting to use his sexuality against him.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Coveney is somewhat better and seems more genuine but also seems ineffectual. We need a change of government but I despise FF and Sinn Fein and would abhor any sort of coalition between them. FF are holding FG over a barrel politically and are biding their time. The only hope I see is a FG/Labour coalition with a strong Labour position and a Labour Minister of Housing who might have have the guts to devise a robust, effective housing policy. I will make no apologies for being a longstanding Labour supporter. I also like the fledgling Social Democrats.

There is no hope of a Labour comeback. Looking at the polls last Sunday, it looks odds on a FF/SF government because Varadkar will lead the biggest party but won't be as desperate as Kenny to get back into government and FF won't swallow a second term propping up FG.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Also, are the current govt really doing enough about articulating their concerns over Brexit and the nightmare scenario of a (as I see it unworkable) hard border with Northern Ireland.

Have you been reading the newspapers over the weekend and the British "outrage" over the Irish government demands? One wonders what more they have to do.


http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/834356/Brexit-Northern-Ireland-border-news-Irish-Sea-UK-Britain-EU-news

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/11/how-dup-could-save-union-and-brexit-talks-too

JupiterKid wrote: »

And I think it's a bit disingenuous to try to correct me as I see the big picture and don't like it one iota. It's patently clear that there are a few FG acolytes on this thread who pounced in to defend their party and its leader. Varadkar and his ilk care not one jot about the most vulnerable in our society.

But let's face it, on social issues, the current government are floundering.

Nobody can claim to see all the big picture. If you do, you are probably missing some important detail that is a flaw in your plan. That is why the most effective work is in teams. I am sorry if you don't like constructive criticism and requests for links to back-up your position but that is the nature of robust but fair debate.

DickSwiveller

oscarBravo wrote: »

Because it's only brought up by people who seem to believe that immigrants are less deserving of a place to live than non-immigrants?

Have you ever heard of supply and demand?

Idbatterim

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Why hasn't anyone mentioned immigration in relation to housing? As far as I know, the people who come here don't bring a house with them, and so add to the demand. Yet it's never mentioned. Why is that?

Re Homelessness. The problem is much more difficult than posters on here make out. It's very hard to help a lot of homeless people because they have lots of other problems.

I agree with this, my issue is with the far more black and white issue of allowing higher density, reducing build costs (which allegedly they are looking at) potentially also reduce all apartment sizes, but for sure those that receive them as social housing!

Why in gods name should single people be housed for virtually nothing in a 1 bedroom apartment that some other relatively low income earner in dublin, say 30-40k would pay E1500 or thereabouts for?

How you can bend over one person backwards to buy a 2 bed apartment in terms of the cost and what that person will be paying in income tax, to then have the person next door, contributing nothing in comparison and probably living not far off the quality of life as your man next door breaking his balls, is a disgrace in my opinion...

BrianBoru00

I have to laugh every time I see the clip with Varadkar saying "The gutter is Bertie Aherns natural habitat". He doesn't seem to realise just how alike they are to each other.

don't shoot but I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. Its a populist approach to belittle Ahern but the fact is that what we need in a leader is someone who can walk the walk - its not a dictatorship so the Taoiseach can only get so much done.

I like Leo, I think he's good and of his bromance with Trudeau what's the harm in that? His job is to build relationship with countries like Canada and non EU countries...Compare this to the so called "honest " breed of independent politicians like John F****** halligan wanting to achieve world peace by spinning over to North Korea?

When we're represented on an international stage, we have a Taoiseach who can talk competently with world leaders ( I still haven't gone looking for footage of Kenny using the phrase "Bejaysus" in case I find it) without making the country look like the wild west.

Jobs for the boys is always going to be the way of the world in a "democracy".

Sadly, I don't see many votes in mental health issues or housing issues

That's it in a nutshell. Do you know why the pension wasn't cut by 10% when everyone else was? It's not because they were vulnerable, Its because they vote...in great numbers.

I'm definitely not a Fine Gael fan - but Leo is as good a leader as we have - not perfect but remember the devil you know . . .

James Brown

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I'm anything but a FG fan. I promised myself to give FG a chance under new management.

I like that they come out and admit that there is a problem there. Homeless is a classic example. Yes we have a terrible homeless crisis and it will take us time to get on top of it. I prefer this to promising no home person will be in a hotel or hostel in 6 months time.

Here's something worth thinking about, Leo's FG have gone longer than Endas without shooting themselves in the foot.

I don't know if I like this government or not. The jury is still out. So far I think that they are far better than the last FG government. They haven't done anything stupid yet and I like that

It's easier to keep a clean bib when you're not up to much.

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Have you ever heard of supply and demand?

That's not how our housing industry works.
The state under Fine Gael has orchestrated an economy, in part, around keeping housing sale prices and rents high, regardless of the public's or markets, inability to afford those prices, so they milk the tax payer to shore up the bottom end. It makes the problem worse but keeps landlords and developers in coin and homelessness, well sure that's part of life isn't it?

A Little Pony

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Why hasn't anyone mentioned immigration in relation to housing? As far as I know, the people who come here don't bring a house with them, and so add to the demand. Yet it's never mentioned. Why is that?

Re Homelessness. The problem is much more difficult than posters on here make out. It's very hard to help a lot of homeless people because they have lots of other problems.

Well addressing this would make you a racist apparently, well that is what we get told constantly. More people in a society puts higher strains on public services, more people means more houses need built, more school places, more strain put on the health service. It all adds up and some countries simply can't deal with it.

server down

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

So are you suggesting that we put homeless people at the top of the social housing queue without question?

Please debate what I actually said which was merely a correction to your point about the homeless not all being housable.

oscarBravo

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Have you ever heard of supply and demand?

Yes. What's your point?

A Little Pony wrote: »

Well addressing this would make you a racist apparently...

No; just a xenophobe. Why do you believe that immigrants are less deserving of a place to live than non-immigrants?

DickSwiveller

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yes. What's your point?



No; just a xenophobe. Why do you believe that immigrants are less deserving of a place to live than non-immigrants?

No-one is saying that. In your efforts to be as offended as possible you've just made that up. The point is: an increase in population creates a higher demand for a limited supply of housing.

A Little Pony

oscarBravo wrote: »

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Have you ever heard of supply and demand?

Yes. What's your point?

A Little Pony wrote: »

Well addressing this would make you a racist apparently...

No; just a xenophobe. Why do you believe that immigrants are less deserving of a place to live than non-immigrants?

Because they aren't born in the country. I prefer to put the people actually born in the country first. More people from outside coming in increases pressures on public services. It's not that complex to figure this out.

server down

DickSwiveller wrote: »

No-one is saying that. In your efforts to be as offended as possible you've just made that up. The point is: an increase in population creates a higher demand for a limited supply of housing.

No debate there.

Actually it probably makes housing policy impossible to forecast.

As for whether building social housing is better than rent supplement. Of course it is. State housing actually earns money over time defraying the initial capital costs, rent supplement increases over time.

Donal55

Nothing wrong with Leo and FG. Haven't they looked after the PS with their pensions.

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/pensions/public-servants-escape-new-pension-rules-36313686.html

JupiterKid

I hold a PhD in both land use planning and housing policy and I lecture on the subject at third level. I'm also the author of a number of academic papers on the subject so I know a thing or two about housing markets.

Housing markets are very complex and dynamic and because they comprise of different tenures (owner occupied, private rented, social rented) policy that affects one tent mute can and will affect the other tenures. Yes, there is a core of homelessness that is comprised of those with addiction and mental health issues and these individuals need supports like hostel accommodation and sheltered living arrangements but sadly many opt to sleep rough. But they are not the homeless I was referring to in an earlier post. I'm talking about the 100,000+ on the housing waiting list, many on that list for a decade or more. Families and individuals in emergency hostel accommodation, living with friends and in hotels. Social housing is what they should be provided with but currently many are shunted into the private rented sector on rent allowance and the HAP schemes at significant cost to the exchequer. This has distorted the rented sector, reducing the supply of rented housing to young professionals who cannot find affordable accommodation. It's a very dysfunctional housing market, particularly in Dublin and frankly why people aren't marching en masse on the streets about it, I don't know.

Then you have the planning issues, which is the other side of the same coin. Ireland has a very inadequate land use planning system compared to other European countries and we tend to emulate the American style sprawl pattern, where people lucky enough to afford a house/home are forced to commute from 30, 40, 50 and more miles from Dublin, usually by car and thus putting massive pressure on our major radial routes into the city and especially the gridlocked M50. It's an utter mess. The really sad thing about this is that it all happened before - during the so-called "Celtic Tiger" era of greed 1998-2007 and we are repeating the exact same mistakes again.

Dublin and the other Irish cities need to build up - not very high rise but 10-15 storey blocks of apartments, many of which need to be large to accommodate families and have proper storage facilities. These should be linked to high capacity public transport links which are commonplace in other European cities. Basically the "compact city" model. I and my colleagues advocated this 15 years ago but it never happened. And don't get me started on the farce that is free for all one-off rural housing.

The current government, and indeed previous administrations have done absolutely nothing about properly addressing these issues. There was Part V of the Planning act which requires private developers to provide 20% social and affordable housing on their developments but that was dependent on the housing market and as we all know that went tits up in 2008. Local authorities sold off social housing sites to private developers during the years of greed.

Land policy also needs examination. The State should be able to purchase zoned residential land at or below market rates to curb speculation and hoarding and get on with a robust house building programme.

But the reality is that since the early 1990s social housing schemes have been replaced by privatising the low cost housing sector, the free market must come first and neo-liberal economic policies are largely to blame for this. And Varadkar is very much a neo-liberal accolyte of Thatcher so nothing will change on the housing front until the current shower in government is removed from power.

server down

^ what he said.

People in the private rental sector should be in favour of social housing even from the point of view of their own self interest. Most aren’t.

Wheeliebin30

Why do we go on as if homelessness is all Leos problems to sort out?

Every country in the world has homeless people.

If someone can solve it they will forever be remembered.

Sweden, Denmark etc the great Nordic countries people like to bleat on about have higher homeless numbers than ireland.

There is nothing wrong with his comments.

A Bit of perspective is needed once in a while.

James Brown

server down wrote: »

^ what he said.

People in the private rental sector should be in favour of social housing even from the point of view of their own self interest. Most aren’t.

It's the attitude Varadkar's base feeds into. A dislike for anyone not themselves. Short sighted greed and self importance. If you aren't getting by that's your own fault and why should I help? What's in it for me?
Spending tax payer money on the black hole that is emergency accommodation/family hubs and the like is a great example of cutting your nose to spite your face.

Wheeliebin30

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It's the attitude Varadkar's base feeds into. A dislike for anyone not themselves. Short sighted greed and self importance. If you aren't getting by that's your own fault and why should I help? What's in it for me?
Spending tax payer money on the black hole that is emergency accommodation/family hubs and the like is a great example of cutting your nose to spite your face.

Stop.

Do you really think outside of making sure themselves and their families are ok people care
about much else?

Very naive to think so.

server down

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Stop.

Do you really think outside of making sure themselves and their families are ok people care
about much else?

Very naive to think so.

That’s projecting. Anyway social housing would be cheaper in the long run. Rent is dead money.

oscarBravo

DickSwiveller wrote: »

No-one is saying that. In your efforts to be as offended as possible you've just made that up. The point is: an increase in population creates a higher demand for a limited supply of housing.

So does children moving out of their family home as they grow up, but you're focusing on immigrants.

A Little Pony wrote: »

Because they aren't born in the country. I prefer to put the people actually born in the country first.

Thank you - at least you're honest about your xenophobia instead of getting huffy and indignant when you're called on it.

More people from outside coming in increases pressures on public services. It's not that complex to figure this out.

More people from outside coming in also increases the overall tax take. The idea that immigrants only bring problems is a symptom of one-dimensional thinking.

BrianBoru00

JupiterKid wrote: »

I hold a PhD in both land use planning and housing policy and I lecture on the subject at third level. I'm also the author of a number of academic papers on the subject so I know a thing or two about housing markets.

Housing markets are very complex and dynamic and because they comprise of different tenures (owner occupied, private rented, social rented) policy that affects one tent mute can and will affect the other tenures. Yes, there is a core of homelessness that is comprised of those with addiction and mental health issues and these individuals need supports like hostel accommodation and sheltered living arrangements but sadly many opt to sleep rough. But they are not the homeless I was referring to in an earlier post. I'm talking about the 100,000+ on the housing waiting list, many on that list for a decade or more. Families and individuals in emergency hostel accommodation, living with friends and in hotels. Social housing is what they should be provided with but currently many are shunted into the private rented sector on rent allowance and the HAP schemes at significant cost to the exchequer. This has distorted the rented sector, reducing the supply of rented housing to young professionals who cannot find affordable accommodation. It's a very dysfunctional housing market, particularly in Dublin and frankly why people aren't marching en masse on the streets about it, I don't know.

Then you have the planning issues, which is the other side of the same coin. Ireland has a very inadequate land use planning system compared to other European countries and we tend to emulate the American style sprawl pattern, where people lucky enough to afford a house/home are forced to commute from 30, 40, 50 and more miles from Dublin, usually by car and thus putting massive pressure on our major radial routes into the city and especially the gridlocked M50. It's an utter mess. The really sad thing about this is that it all happened before - during the so-called "Celtic Tiger" era of greed 1998-2007 and we are repeating the exact same mistakes again.

Dublin and the other Irish cities need to build up - not very high rise but 10-15 storey blocks of apartments, many of which need to be large to accommodate families and have proper storage facilities. These should be linked to high capacity public transport links which are commonplace in other European cities. Basically the "compact city" model. I and my colleagues advocated this 15 years ago but it never happened. And don't get me started on the farce that is free for all one-off rural housing.

The current government, and indeed previous administrations have done absolutely nothing about properly addressing these issues. There was Part V of the Planning act which requires private developers to provide 20% social and affordable housing on their developments but that was dependent on the housing market and as we all know that went tits up in 2008. Local authorities sold off social housing sites to private developers during the years of greed.

Land policy also needs examination. The State should be able to purchase zoned residential land at or below market rates to curb speculation and hoarding and get on with a robust house building programme.

But the reality is that since the early 1990s social housing schemes have been replaced by privatising the low cost housing sector, the free market must come first and neo-liberal economic policies are largely to blame for this. And Varadkar is very much a neo-liberal accolyte of Thatcher so nothing will change on the housing front until the current shower in government is removed from power.

its all well and good having qualifications but all that proves is you can prove theories and talk about the issue.

Doing is a different matter.

And I'm not saying that to insult you but the situation on the ground is a lot more difficult. I understand that your knowledge would be of huge benefit and given your qualifications could you maybe answer a query for me in isolation.
If you look at Irish Rail (notwithstanding current difficulties) . The "Maynooth line" extends next to Edgeworthstown, Longford, Dromod, Carrick-on-Shannon, Boyle, Ballymote, Collooney and Sligo town. Those towns and surrounding ones have a large amount of vacant properties.
Would it not make sense to add a train or couple of trains extra to service those routes and populate those vacant houses?

ThisRegard

JupiterKid wrote: »

I hold a PhD in both land use planning and housing policy and I lecture on the subject at third level. I'm also the author of a number of academic papers on the subject so I know a thing or two about housing markets.

Your opening post read as an ill informed and factually inaccurate rant, not from an analytical mind spent in years of research so it's not surprising people doubted you had knowledge in the area.

A Little Pony

oscarBravo wrote: »

DickSwiveller wrote: »

No-one is saying that. In your efforts to be as offended as possible you've just made that up. The point is: an increase in population creates a higher demand for a limited supply of housing.

So does children moving out of their family home as they grow up, but you're focusing on immigrants.

A Little Pony wrote: »

Because they aren't born in the country. I prefer to put the people actually born in the country first.

Thank you - at least you're honest about your xenophobia instead of getting huffy and indignant when you're called on it.

More people from outside coming in increases pressures on public services. It's not that complex to figure this out.

More people from outside coming in also increases the overall tax take. The idea that immigrants only bring problems is a symptom of one-dimensional thinking.

Of course they don't bring all negatives, but the pressures on public services go up because more people are in the country using such services, to run those services requires more money needed to be pumped into them and money doesn't just grow on trees.

If you have more people than you can house then homelessness will only rise, it's not going to fall.

emo72

So would fine Gael supporters not allow any criticism of fg housing minister and Leo? Nothing at all? I recall Simon Coveney stating that homelessness would be sorted within a year. That's about 2 years ago. Everyone that needed a place to stay would have one. No more rough sleeping. But he leaves that ministry and is absolved? Brilliant strategy.

You see, it's the never ending future deadlines that are always missed. They say they are working very hard and it takes time. They've been in power for years now. It's not working. They know it. So how do they handle it, by starting to get people used to it. Homelessness? So what? It's quite normal actually. Sure look at these "statistics", we are quite normal when compared to other countries. It's blatantly bull**** and they should be pulled up over it. It is a disgrace.

Wheeliebin30

server down wrote: »

That’s projecting. Anyway social housing would be cheaper in the long run. Rent is dead money.

No it's not.

Its a black hole that the tax payer has to subsidise forever.

Wheeliebin30

emo72 wrote: »

So would fine Gael supporters not allow any criticism of fg housing minister and Leo? Nothing at all? I recall Simon Coveney stating that homelessness would be sorted within a year. That's about 2 years ago. Everyone that needed a place to stay would have one. No more rough sleeping. But he leaves that ministry and is absolved? Brilliant strategy.

You see, it's the never ending future deadlines that are always missed. They say they are working very hard and it takes time. They've been in power for years now. It's not working. They know it. So how do they handle it, by starting to get people used to it. Homelessness? So what? It's quite normal actually. Sure look at these "statistics", we are quite normal when compared to other countries. It's blatantly bull**** and they should be pulled up over it. It is a disgrace.

What's your solution to a worldwide issue?

James Brown

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

No it's not.

Its a black hole that the tax payer has to subsidise forever.

No it's not. If we invested in affordable and social housing, we'd have property to rent and sell. But it will ding the profits of the developers and landlords, so best con the public with stories about elsewhere having the problem and getting up early and that.

The simple fact that it's getting worse by the day, scientifically and logically proves the state, under Fine Gael is feeding the problem not tackling it. We'll run out of tax monies eventually, then I suppose we'll have all went mad, didn't get up early enough or some other s*ite.

Stheno

server down wrote: »

That’s projecting. Anyway social housing would be cheaper in the long run. Rent is dead money.

https://www.google.ie/amp/amp.irishexaminer.com/ireland/council-tenants-owe-65m-in-unpaid-rent-437052.html

Last year council's were owed 65 million in unpaid rent arrears.

If you could build social housing at an average of 250k countrywide that's 260 houses

emo72

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

What's your solution to a worldwide issue?

Not a politician. But I think it's obvious. Build social housing like we did when we were smashed in the 20th century. But that's anathema to free market government. Sometimes the free market doesn't provide.

server down

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

No it's not.

Its a black hole that the tax payer has to subsidise forever.

What is? Rent or social housing?

Imagine that we had social housing that was paid for (as we did) and tenants were paying rent. Would this cost more or less than subsidising rent?

To make it easier the answer is less. Ones an income the other is an cost.


By selling housing we turned a revenue stream into a cost.