Rio marathon champ tests postive for EPO

OOnegative · 07-11-2017 7:02pm #1

Shoddy excuse:

http://www.flotrack.org/article/63124-rio-olympic-marathon-champion-jemima-sumgong-banned-for-four-years#.WgH0LEdryeg

clickerquicklic · 07-11-2017 7:32pm

Does anyone genuinely believe that any medals won in any top athletics races are won cleanly ? I met a guy a few years ago he told he nobody is clean at the top of every sport they are all doping , the best guys have the best doctors. I didn't believe him but have read a lot about doping in sport and it saddens me to say I'd 100% agree with him now. It just seems so pointless watching athletics races either drug them all or find a better way to test , the current testing for EPO is not satisfactory.

Testosterscone · 07-11-2017 7:41pm

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Does anyone genuinely believe that any medals won in any top athletics races are won cleanly ? I met a guy a few years ago he told he nobody is clean at the top of every sport they are all doping , the best guys have the best doctors. I didn't believe him but have read a lot about doping in sport and it saddens me to say I'd 100% agree with him now. It just seems so pointless watching athletics races either drug them all or find a better way to test , the current testing for EPO is not satisfactory.

Unfortunately there are many who will make that lazy assumption. There is no doubt an awful lot of doping in the sport but there are also some genuine athletes who are open an transparent but sadly they get lumped in all the same despite putting in the work.

Here is probably one of the better examples;

https://www.nazelite.com/

clickerquicklic · 07-11-2017 7:47pm

Testosterscone wrote: »

Unfortunately there are many who will make that lazy assumption. There is no doubt an awful lot of doping in the sport but there are also some genuine athletes who are open an transparent but sadly they get lumped in all the same despite putting in the work.

Here is probably one of the better examples;

https://www.nazelite.com/

The way it was put to me was say your a 2.05 marathoner who is clean , there are just so many 2.06-2.10 marathoners than could dope and not get caught and take your time, it is hard to argue with that assumption .

I love sport and I love competition and would love nothing more to believe its a 100% clean sport I do think there is lots of mid packers running clean but at the very top its hard to see what stops one of the chasing pack taking that extra edge to get ahead.

Chivito550 · 07-11-2017 7:55pm

clickerquicklic wrote: »

The way it was put to me was say your a 2.05 marathoner who is clean , there are just so many 2.06-2.10 marathoners than could dope and not get caught and take your time, it is hard to argue with that assumption .

I love sport and I love competition and would love nothing more to believe its a 100% clean sport I do think there is lots of mid packers running clean but at the very top its hard to see what stops one of the chasing pack taking that extra edge to get ahead.

I really do hope your cynical view extends to the likes of soccer and tennis, sports with infinitely more money, and far weaker drug testing systems.

Because if you think athletics is 100% dirty, then you better believe those megastar footballers are even more likely to be juiced.

clickerquicklic · 07-11-2017 7:59pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

I really do hope your cynical view extends to the likes of soccer and tennis, sports with infinitely more money, and far weaker drug testing systems.

Because if you think athletics is 100% dirty, then you better believe those megastar footballers are even more likely to be juiced.

Yeah 100% agree its prevalent in every sport , I do hope I'm wrong but the older I get the more I feel its true. Any top sport if your not doping someone else is and is going to get ahead.

Chivito550 · 07-11-2017 8:03pm

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Yeah 100% agree its prevalent in every sport , I do hope I'm wrong but the older I get the more I feel its true. Any top sport if your not doping someone else is and is going to get ahead.

The reality is that some dope, some don’t. Some medal winners dope, some don’t. Some last placers dope, some don’t.

It is perfectly possible to be clean and beat dopers. There’s only so much doping can do for you, and with the improvements in testing these days, athletes have to micro dose to prevent detection, so as a result the gains are not as big as when you could dope away in the 80s and have almost no chance of being detected. All this gives clean athletes a greater chance.

Who’s this fella who gave you all the doom and gloom? A former Irish athlete, or some lad propping up a bar stool?

Testosterscone · 07-11-2017 8:08pm

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Yeah 100% agree its prevalent in every sport , I do hope I'm wrong but the older I get the more I feel its true. Any top sport if your not doping someone else is and is going to get ahead.

It is also worth taking into account that there are those who are non responders. Drugs aside there is still a hell of alot work put in by these the drugs only facilitate recovery to allow people to work harder more frequently. I think this is a point that most people forget and just see x taking drugs which equates to y seconds/minutes. Plenty that are busted at lower levels because despite the drugs they are still not putting in the work.

skyblue46 · 07-11-2017 8:08pm

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Yeah 100% agree its prevalent in every sport , I do hope I'm wrong but the older I get the more I feel its true. Any top sport if your not doping someone else is and is going to get ahead.

I don't think it's cynical at all. It's a case of removing rose tinted spectacles.

clickerquicklic · 07-11-2017 8:12pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

The reality is that some dope, some don’t. Some medal winners dope, some don’t. Some last placers dope, some don’t.

It is perfectly possible to be clean and beat dopers. There’s only so much doping can do for you, and with the improvements in testing these days, athletes have to micro dose to prevent detection, so as a result the gains are not as big as when you could dope away in the 80s and have almost no chance of being detected. All this gives clean athletes a greater chance.

Who’s this fella who gave you all the doom and gloom? A former Irish athlete, or some lad propping up a bar stool?

I was just interested in peoples beliefs , I was happier when I was 100% naive and watching athletics like wow how are these guys running 2.50 per km or whatever, watching the icarus documentary on Netflix certainly ruined a bit of the sport for me and all sports. You like to believe what you are watching is fair sport.

I think you sum it up correctly some are some aren't , hopefully the guys at the top are 100% natural, but we will never know.

The guy that said it to me had nothing to do with athletics he was actually a courtsider pro gambler that bet on tennis matches all around the world and his theory was mostly about tennis players but extended to athletics. It was just his opinion he was laughing when I said A particular tennis player wasn't doping.

skyblue46 · 07-11-2017 8:13pm

Testosterscone wrote: »

It is also worth taking into account that there are those who are non responders. Drugs aside there is still a hell of alot work put in by these the drugs only facilitate recovery to allow people to work harder more frequently. I think this is a point that most people forget and just see x taking drugs which equates to y seconds/minutes. Plenty that are busted at lower levels because despite the drugs they are still not putting in the work.

My problem is more the us and them reporting. Random Russians, Africans and Jamaicans get vilified while questionable off scores for British Demi Gods are ignored by and large.

Testosterscone · 07-11-2017 8:34pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

My problem is more the us and them reporting. Random Russians, Africans and Jamaicans get vilified while questionable off scores for British Demi Gods are ignored by and large.

Worse yet complete hippocrisy

What if I told you that Russia wasn't the only one country that was under investigation for a global championship (Sochi) and had a doping laboratory suspended of its accreditation

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2017-06/wada-suspends-ucla-laboratory-accreditation-for-specific-prohibited-substances

http://www.oregonlive.com/trackandfield/index.ssf/2017/06/bbc_says_fbi_and_irs_investiga.html

Funny enough not too many people talking about them compared to those pesky Russians :rolleyes:

RuMan · 07-11-2017 9:42pm

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Does anyone genuinely believe that any medals won in any top athletics races are won cleanly ? I met a guy a few years ago he told he nobody is clean at the top of every sport they are all doping , the best guys have the best doctors. I didn't believe him but have read a lot about doping in sport and it saddens me to say I'd 100% agree with him now. It just seems so pointless watching athletics races either drug them all or find a better way to test , the current testing for EPO is not satisfactory.

I'd be amazed given the financial rewards in some other sports are far higher then athletics if doping wasn't more prevalent.

I've never really understood why some people dismiss all cyclists and athletes as dopers yet this doesn't happen in other sports.

Generally the higher the rewards the more people cheat ( in life not just in sport).

skyblue46 · 07-11-2017 9:57pm

RuMan wrote: »

I'd be amazed given the financial rewards in some other sports are far higher then athletics if doping wasn't more prevalent.

I've never really understood why some people dismiss all cyclists and athletes as dopers yet this doesn't happen in other sports.

Generally the higher the rewards the more people cheat ( in life not just in sport).

The BALCO and Puerto scandals show that it is in all sports. Tennis grand slam champions, Tour de France winners, Champions League winners, every finalist in an Olympic 100m final, baseball, American football...the list goes on. There is also the cases that compare to Michelle deBruin, namely mid career transformations...take a bow Wiggo, Froomey, Paula and Sir Mo.

RuMan · 07-11-2017 10:23pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

The BALCO and Puerto scandals show that it is in all sports. Tennis grand slam champions, Tour de France winners, Champions League winners, every finalist in an Olympic 100m final, baseball, American football...the list goes on. There is also the cases that compare to Michelle deBruin, namely mid career transformations...take a bow Wiggo, Froomey, Paula and Sir Mo.

I don't doubt that it just seems to be that the focus is mostly on athletics and cycling. People seem to hold competitors in those sports to higher standards.

There's very little coverage of doping in tennis and football in comparison. Maybe they're cleaner, but it would be strange given salaries of top footballers are multiples of top athletes/cyclists. All those people you mention are covered pretty extensively in comparison to Spanish footballers or indeed tennis players who had links to doctors with questionable reputations.

S.L.F. · 07-11-2017 11:00pm

RuMan wrote: »

I don't doubt that it just seems to be that the focus is mostly on athletics and cycling. People seem to hold competitors in those sports to higher standards.

There's very little coverage of doping in tennis and football in comparison. Maybe they're cleaner, but it would be strange given salaries of top footballers are multiples of top athletes/cyclists. All those people you mention are covered pretty extensively in comparison to Spanish footballers or indeed tennis players who had links to doctors with questionable reputations.

There's big coverage of doping in Tennis. The field isn't as vast as athletics though so it seems like less coverage.

skyblue46 · 07-11-2017 11:02pm

RuMan wrote: »

I don't doubt that it just seems to be that the focus is mostly on athletics and cycling. People seem to hold competitors in those sports to higher standards.

There's very little coverage of doping in tennis and football in comparison. Maybe they're cleaner, but it would be strange given salaries of top footballers are multiples of top athletes/cyclists. All those people you mention are covered pretty extensively in comparison to Spanish footballers or indeed tennis players who had links to doctors with questionable reputations.

I agree, and I don't! Lance Armstrong wouldn't have been exposed if it wasn't for David Walshe and Paul Kimmage. It had nothing to do with drug testing. He never failed a test...nor did Carl Lewis :rolleyes: It wasn't a Spanish club that was at the centre of the scandal it was an Italian Old Lady. I suppose the reason that cycling, athletics and swimming have bigger problems is that so much of ones ability is based on physical prowess. You need other skills for tennis, rugby, football etc but runners and cyclists need speed and endurance which can be improved by drugs.

skyblue46 · 07-11-2017 11:03pm

S.L.F. wrote: »

There's big coverage of doping in Tennis. The field isn't as vast as athletics though so it seems like less coverage.

It's generally accepted that some of the top players 3/6 month injury breaks are in fact behind the doors doping bans.

S.L.F. · 07-11-2017 11:07pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

It's generally accepted that some of the top players 3/6 month injury breaks are in fact behind the doors doping bans.

Yeap, theres a lot of speculation there alright.

But from what I've read its just as prevalent as the other top sports despite needing considerable talent as well. You need endless hours of training every day just as much as the other sports.

walshb · 07-11-2017 11:20pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

It's generally accepted that some of the top players 3/6 month injury breaks are in fact behind the doors doping bans.

Who accepts this?

skyblue46 · 07-11-2017 11:22pm

walshb wrote: »

Who accepts this?

Anyone who doesn't believe that tennis is the only sport that missed out on the benefits of doping.

average_runner · 07-11-2017 11:24pm

Only way to combat drugs in sport is to limit the money in it.

Andy Murray has earned 60m, which is a stupid amount.

How much has farah earned? Surely better investing that in facilities instead of making people silly rich.

Once the money is silly then you will have drugs.

walshb · 07-11-2017 11:24pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

Anyone who doesn't believe that tennis is the only sport that missed out on the benefits of doping.

Thanks for clearing that up...

walshb · 07-11-2017 11:25pm

average_runner wrote: »

Only way to combat drugs in sport is to limit the money in it.

Andy Murray has earned 60m, which is a stupid amount.

How much has farah earned? Surely better investing that in facilities instead of making people silly rich.

Once the money is silly then you will have drugs.

Are you implying that Murray is a cheat?

RuMan · 07-11-2017 11:28pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

I agree, and I don't! Lance Armstrong wouldn't have been exposed if it wasn't for David Walshe and Paul Kimmage. It had nothing to do with drug testing. He never failed a test...nor did Carl Lewis :rolleyes: It wasn't a Spanish club that was at the centre of the scandal it was an Italian Old Lady. I suppose the reason that cycling, athletics and swimming have bigger problems is that so much of ones ability is based on physical prowess. You need other skills for tennis, rugby, football etc but runners and cyclists need speed and endurance which can be improved by drugs.

It was Dr Fuentes i was referring to. A lot of players from a very big Spanish club visiting him. Probably just to say hello right enough. I'm sure there's no more in it then Mo and Salazar.

average_runner · 07-11-2017 11:28pm

walshb wrote: »

Are you implying that Murray is a cheat?

Did I imply farah was?

S.L.F. · 07-11-2017 11:29pm

walshb wrote: »

Who accepts this?

https://www.thescore.com/news/1084117

skyblue46 · 07-11-2017 11:32pm

average_runner wrote: »

Only way to combat drugs in sport is to limit the money in it.

Andy Murray has earned 60m, which is a stupid amount.

How much has farah earned? Surely better investing that in facilities instead of making people silly rich.

Once the money is silly then you will have drugs.

As someone mentioned before it's the hypocrisy that kills me. How can everyone immediately decide that 3 runners from a country with a 1.375 billion who could beat Sonia were drug cheats while a small Carribean island hoovers up sprint medals to acclaim....that a runner who trailed in said Sonia's wake could run a marathon minutes faster than convicted drugs cheats. The list could go on. To ignore it is madness

average_runner · 07-11-2017 11:33pm

S.L.F. wrote: »

https://www.thescore.com/news/1084117

Are all competitors in the olympics available to the same drug tests?

Chivito550 · 07-11-2017 11:33pm

S.L.F. wrote: »

There's big coverage of doping in Tennis. The field isn't as vast as athletics though so it seems like less coverage.

I watch a lot of tennis. Doping is never discussed.

walshb · 07-11-2017 11:34pm

average_runner wrote: »

Did I imply farah was?

We’ll leave it there...answers questions with questions goes nowhere.

Chivito550 · 07-11-2017 11:37pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

I agree, and I don't! Lance Armstrong wouldn't have been exposed if it wasn't for David Walshe and Paul Kimmage. It had nothing to do with drug testing. He never failed a test...nor did Carl Lewis :rolleyes: It wasn't a Spanish club that was at the centre of the scandal it was an Italian Old Lady. I suppose the reason that cycling, athletics and swimming have bigger problems is that so much of ones ability is based on physical prowess. You need other skills for tennis, rugby, football etc but runners and cyclists need speed and endurance which can be improved by drugs.

There’s no skill in descending down a mountain in the alps around hairpin bends? There’s no skill in driving out of starting blocks? There’s no skill regarding technique for hurdles, jumps, throws?

Cycling and athletics have more problems because they test more. It’s as simple as that. Don’t be fooled into thinking otherwise.

skyblue46 · 07-11-2017 11:37pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

I watch a lot of tennis. Doping is never discussed.

That's the hypocrisy. I watch cycling all year long on Eurosport. Carlton Kirby keeps referring to cyclists drugs bans as "unfortunate absences" or "troubles". Steve Cram is the same with athletics and I presume tennis commentators skirt the issue too.

Alf Veedersane · 07-11-2017 11:38pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

I watch a lot of tennis. Doping is never discussed.

Sharapova was given prime time when she came back for US Open. Tennis doesn't want to lose its stars.

Doping? No hablo español.

average_runner · 07-11-2017 11:38pm

walshb wrote: »

We’ll leave it there...answers questions with questions goes nowhere.

I just wonder why you picked Murray and not both my examples.

Reason I mentioned Murray is because I was watching him on eurosport and his winnings popped up.

ThisRegard · 07-11-2017 11:39pm

Back to the athlete in question. What was her background and record coming into the games, any association with suspect coaches or camps? Were eyebrows raised when she won London and her other marathons?

average_runner · 07-11-2017 11:40pm

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Sharapova was given prime time when she came back for US Open. Tennis doesn't want to lose its stars.

Doping? No hablo español.

She got that in the US but not in UK or French slams. Tennis is fading quickly in the USA

S.L.F. · 07-11-2017 11:41pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

I watch a lot of tennis. Doping is never discussed.

Oh I didnt know it was limited to t.v. coverage.

Its discussed a lot on the fan forums and FB pages especially when the fan favourite doesnt win.

Chivito550 · 07-11-2017 11:42pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

That's the hypocrisy. I watch cycling all year long on Eurosport. Carlton Kirby keeps referring to cyclists drugs bans as "unfortunate absences" or "troubles". Steve Cram is the same with athletics and I presume tennis commentators skirt the issue too.

Cram talks about doping a lot. Sure he was the one who created the good v evil nonsense during Beijing World Championships.

RuMan · 07-11-2017 11:43pm

walshb wrote: »

Thanks for clearing that up...

Well Dr Fuentes was a certain injury prone tennis players doctor but i'm sure there's a perfectly innocent explanation.

skyblue46 · 07-11-2017 11:45pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

There’s no skill in descending down a mountain in the alps around hairpin bends? There’s no skill in driving out of starting blocks? There’s no skill regarding technique for hurdles, jumps, throws?

Cycling and athletics have more problems because they test more. It’s as simple as that. Don’t be fooled into thinking otherwise.

Skills relative to other sports. All sports require skills but for some there is more to be gained by physical improvement than skill improvement. Usain Bolt could never get out of the blocks but it never hindered him. The English sports system transferred rowers to cycling and vice versa based on physiological profiles. This could not be done with skill dominated based sports. Some might call these other sports games!

Alf Veedersane · 07-11-2017 11:45pm

average_runner wrote: »

She got that in the US but not in UK or French slams. Tennis is fading quickly in the USA

The US Open was her first back after the ban...

Point being that they'll protect the marquee players but it's not like they have a strict testing programme anyway

average_runner · 07-11-2017 11:45pm

RuMan wrote: »

Well Dr Fuentes was a certain injury prone tennis players doctor but i'm sure there's a perfectly innocent explanation.

What does that say about the players that beat that certain player?

S.L.F. · 07-11-2017 11:46pm

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Sharapova was given prime time when she came back for US Open. Tennis doesn't want to lose its stars.

Doping? No hablo español.

Tennis can't afford to lose it stars, its one of the reasons for the silent bans. They dont want to tarnish the gentlemans game.

Chivito550 · 07-11-2017 11:46pm

ThisRegard wrote: »

Back to the athlete in question. What was her background and record coming into the games, any association with suspect coaches or camps? Were eyebrows raised when she won London and her other marathons?

https://www.iaaf.org/athletes/kenya/jemima-jelagat-sumgong-224362

Jumped from 2:28 to 2:20 in 2013.

average_runner · 07-11-2017 11:46pm

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The US Open was her first back after the ban...

Eh no it wasn't.

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2017/05/maria-sharapova-not-given-wild-card-entry-for-french-open/66074/

clickerquicklic · 07-11-2017 11:47pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

There’s no skill in descending down a mountain in the alps around hairpin bends? There’s no skill in driving out of starting blocks? There’s no skill regarding technique for hurdles, jumps, throws?

Cycling and athletics have more problems because they test more. It’s as simple as that. Don’t be fooled into thinking otherwise.

I don't think there is any more drugs in athletics than any other top sports , I agree with you there. With athletics and cycling though they are mostly timed events so its easier to see the improvements that are been made either versus the world record or versus their own previous performances.

If you had a whole football team working with a doctor (which I'm sure happens) its harder to measure the improvements in numerical terms.

I think this is why athletics gets such a bad rap compared to other sports when it comes to doping and speculation about doping. Maybe people are too quick to jump to conclusions when they see someone who ran X time 6 months ago and now runs X-n . Whereas if Messi scores 5 goals in a game hes just a genius.

skyblue46 · 07-11-2017 11:47pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Cram talks about doping a lot. Sure he was the one who created the good v evil nonsense during Beijing World Championships.

Oh he does alright...except when the athlete in question is British

ThisRegard · 07-11-2017 11:49pm

clickerquicklic wrote: »

If you had a whole football team working with a doctor (which I'm sure happens) its harder to measure the improvements in numerical terms.

Their superior stamina and recovery as a match progresses would be apparent.

Chivito550 · 07-11-2017 11:49pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

Skills relative to other sports. All sports require skills but for some there is more to be gained by physical improvement than skill improvement. Usain Bolt could never get out of the blocks but it never hindered him. The English sports system transferred rowers to cycling and vice versa based on physiological profiles. This could not be done with skill dominated based sports. Some might call these other sports games!

It’s a myth that Bolt was a poor starter. He was actually a very good starter. He wouldn’t be first out, but he’d have a habit of perfecting his start in time for the final and would get out well.

Doesn’t matter how skillful a footballer is if he is bolloxed with 15 minutes to go. Enter EPO.

skyblue46 · 07-11-2017 11:52pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

It’s a myth that Bolt was a poor starter. He was actually a very good starter. He wouldn’t be first out, but he’d have a habit of perfecting his start in time for the final and would get out well.

Doesn’t matter how skillful a footballer is if he is bolloxed with 15 minutes to go. Enter EPO.

Ok I'm confused. Are we agreeing drugs are in every real sport?

Rio marathon champ tests postive for EPO

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