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Rio marathon champ tests postive for EPO

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭clickerquicklic


    Does anyone genuinely believe that any medals won in any top athletics races are won cleanly ? I met a guy a few years ago he told he nobody is clean at the top of every sport they are all doping , the best guys have the best doctors. I didn't believe him but have read a lot about doping in sport and it saddens me to say I'd 100% agree with him now. It just seems so pointless watching athletics races either drug them all or find a better way to test , the current testing for EPO is not satisfactory.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Testosterscone


    Does anyone genuinely believe that any medals won in any top athletics races are won cleanly ? I met a guy a few years ago he told he nobody is clean at the top of every sport they are all doping , the best guys have the best doctors. I didn't believe him but have read a lot about doping in sport and it saddens me to say I'd 100% agree with him now. It just seems so pointless watching athletics races either drug them all or find a better way to test , the current testing for EPO is not satisfactory.

    Unfortunately there are many who will make that lazy assumption. There is no doubt an awful lot of doping in the sport but there are also some genuine athletes who are open an transparent but sadly they get lumped in all the same despite putting in the work.

    Here is probably one of the better examples;

    https://www.nazelite.com/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭clickerquicklic


    Unfortunately there are many who will make that lazy assumption. There is no doubt an awful lot of doping in the sport but there are also some genuine athletes who are open an transparent but sadly they get lumped in all the same despite putting in the work.

    Here is probably one of the better examples;

    https://www.nazelite.com/

    The way it was put to me was say your a 2.05 marathoner who is clean , there are just so many 2.06-2.10 marathoners than could dope and not get caught and take your time, it is hard to argue with that assumption .

    I love sport and I love competition and would love nothing more to believe its a 100% clean sport I do think there is lots of mid packers running clean but at the very top its hard to see what stops one of the chasing pack taking that extra edge to get ahead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    The way it was put to me was say your a 2.05 marathoner who is clean , there are just so many 2.06-2.10 marathoners than could dope and not get caught and take your time, it is hard to argue with that assumption .

    I love sport and I love competition and would love nothing more to believe its a 100% clean sport I do think there is lots of mid packers running clean but at the very top its hard to see what stops one of the chasing pack taking that extra edge to get ahead.

    I really do hope your cynical view extends to the likes of soccer and tennis, sports with infinitely more money, and far weaker drug testing systems.

    Because if you think athletics is 100% dirty, then you better believe those megastar footballers are even more likely to be juiced.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭clickerquicklic


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    I really do hope your cynical view extends to the likes of soccer and tennis, sports with infinitely more money, and far weaker drug testing systems.

    Because if you think athletics is 100% dirty, then you better believe those megastar footballers are even more likely to be juiced.

    Yeah 100% agree its prevalent in every sport , I do hope I'm wrong but the older I get the more I feel its true. Any top sport if your not doping someone else is and is going to get ahead.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Yeah 100% agree its prevalent in every sport , I do hope I'm wrong but the older I get the more I feel its true. Any top sport if your not doping someone else is and is going to get ahead.

    The reality is that some dope, some don’t. Some medal winners dope, some don’t. Some last placers dope, some don’t.

    It is perfectly possible to be clean and beat dopers. There’s only so much doping can do for you, and with the improvements in testing these days, athletes have to micro dose to prevent detection, so as a result the gains are not as big as when you could dope away in the 80s and have almost no chance of being detected. All this gives clean athletes a greater chance.

    Who’s this fella who gave you all the doom and gloom? A former Irish athlete, or some lad propping up a bar stool?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Testosterscone


    Yeah 100% agree its prevalent in every sport , I do hope I'm wrong but the older I get the more I feel its true. Any top sport if your not doping someone else is and is going to get ahead.

    It is also worth taking into account that there are those who are non responders. Drugs aside there is still a hell of alot work put in by these the drugs only facilitate recovery to allow people to work harder more frequently. I think this is a point that most people forget and just see x taking drugs which equates to y seconds/minutes. Plenty that are busted at lower levels because despite the drugs they are still not putting in the work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    Yeah 100% agree its prevalent in every sport , I do hope I'm wrong but the older I get the more I feel its true. Any top sport if your not doping someone else is and is going to get ahead.

    I don't think it's cynical at all. It's a case of removing rose tinted spectacles.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭clickerquicklic


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    The reality is that some dope, some don’t. Some medal winners dope, some don’t. Some last placers dope, some don’t.

    It is perfectly possible to be clean and beat dopers. There’s only so much doping can do for you, and with the improvements in testing these days, athletes have to micro dose to prevent detection, so as a result the gains are not as big as when you could dope away in the 80s and have almost no chance of being detected. All this gives clean athletes a greater chance.

    Who’s this fella who gave you all the doom and gloom? A former Irish athlete, or some lad propping up a bar stool?

    I was just interested in peoples beliefs , I was happier when I was 100% naive and watching athletics like wow how are these guys running 2.50 per km or whatever, watching the icarus documentary on Netflix certainly ruined a bit of the sport for me and all sports. You like to believe what you are watching is fair sport.

    I think you sum it up correctly some are some aren't , hopefully the guys at the top are 100% natural, but we will never know.

    The guy that said it to me had nothing to do with athletics he was actually a courtsider pro gambler that bet on tennis matches all around the world and his theory was mostly about tennis players but extended to athletics. It was just his opinion he was laughing when I said A particular tennis player wasn't doping.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    It is also worth taking into account that there are those who are non responders. Drugs aside there is still a hell of alot work put in by these the drugs only facilitate recovery to allow people to work harder more frequently. I think this is a point that most people forget and just see x taking drugs which equates to y seconds/minutes. Plenty that are busted at lower levels because despite the drugs they are still not putting in the work.

    My problem is more the us and them reporting. Random Russians, Africans and Jamaicans get vilified while questionable off scores for British Demi Gods are ignored by and large.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Testosterscone


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    My problem is more the us and them reporting. Random Russians, Africans and Jamaicans get vilified while questionable off scores for British Demi Gods are ignored by and large.

    Worse yet complete hippocrisy

    What if I told you that Russia wasn't the only one country that was under investigation for a global championship (Sochi) and had a doping laboratory suspended of its accreditation

    https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2017-06/wada-suspends-ucla-laboratory-accreditation-for-specific-prohibited-substances

    http://www.oregonlive.com/trackandfield/index.ssf/2017/06/bbc_says_fbi_and_irs_investiga.html

    Funny enough not too many people talking about them compared to those pesky Russians :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    Does anyone genuinely believe that any medals won in any top athletics races are won cleanly ? I met a guy a few years ago he told he nobody is clean at the top of every sport they are all doping , the best guys have the best doctors. I didn't believe him but have read a lot about doping in sport and it saddens me to say I'd 100% agree with him now. It just seems so pointless watching athletics races either drug them all or find a better way to test , the current testing for EPO is not satisfactory.

    I'd be amazed given the financial rewards in some other sports are far higher then athletics if doping wasn't more prevalent.

    I've never really understood why some people dismiss all cyclists and athletes as dopers yet this doesn't happen in other sports.

    Generally the higher the rewards the more people cheat ( in life not just in sport).


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    RuMan wrote: »
    I'd be amazed given the financial rewards in some other sports are far higher then athletics if doping wasn't more prevalent.

    I've never really understood why some people dismiss all cyclists and athletes as dopers yet this doesn't happen in other sports.

    Generally the higher the rewards the more people cheat ( in life not just in sport).

    The BALCO and Puerto scandals show that it is in all sports. Tennis grand slam champions, Tour de France winners, Champions League winners, every finalist in an Olympic 100m final, baseball, American football...the list goes on. There is also the cases that compare to Michelle deBruin, namely mid career transformations...take a bow Wiggo, Froomey, Paula and Sir Mo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    The BALCO and Puerto scandals show that it is in all sports. Tennis grand slam champions, Tour de France winners, Champions League winners, every finalist in an Olympic 100m final, baseball, American football...the list goes on. There is also the cases that compare to Michelle deBruin, namely mid career transformations...take a bow Wiggo, Froomey, Paula and Sir Mo.

    I don't doubt that it just seems to be that the focus is mostly on athletics and cycling. People seem to hold competitors in those sports to higher standards.

    There's very little coverage of doping in tennis and football in comparison. Maybe they're cleaner, but it would be strange given salaries of top footballers are multiples of top athletes/cyclists. All those people you mention are covered pretty extensively in comparison to Spanish footballers or indeed tennis players who had links to doctors with questionable reputations.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭S.L.F.


    RuMan wrote: »
    I don't doubt that it just seems to be that the focus is mostly on athletics and cycling. People seem to hold competitors in those sports to higher standards.

    There's very little coverage of doping in tennis and football in comparison. Maybe they're cleaner, but it would be strange given salaries of top footballers are multiples of top athletes/cyclists. All those people you mention are covered pretty extensively in comparison to Spanish footballers or indeed tennis players who had links to doctors with questionable reputations.

    There's big coverage of doping in Tennis. The field isn't as vast as athletics though so it seems like less coverage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    RuMan wrote: »
    I don't doubt that it just seems to be that the focus is mostly on athletics and cycling. People seem to hold competitors in those sports to higher standards.

    There's very little coverage of doping in tennis and football in comparison. Maybe they're cleaner, but it would be strange given salaries of top footballers are multiples of top athletes/cyclists. All those people you mention are covered pretty extensively in comparison to Spanish footballers or indeed tennis players who had links to doctors with questionable reputations.

    I agree, and I don't! Lance Armstrong wouldn't have been exposed if it wasn't for David Walshe and Paul Kimmage. It had nothing to do with drug testing. He never failed a test...nor did Carl Lewis :rolleyes: It wasn't a Spanish club that was at the centre of the scandal it was an Italian Old Lady. I suppose the reason that cycling, athletics and swimming have bigger problems is that so much of ones ability is based on physical prowess. You need other skills for tennis, rugby, football etc but runners and cyclists need speed and endurance which can be improved by drugs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    S.L.F. wrote: »
    There's big coverage of doping in Tennis. The field isn't as vast as athletics though so it seems like less coverage.

    It's generally accepted that some of the top players 3/6 month injury breaks are in fact behind the doors doping bans.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭S.L.F.


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    It's generally accepted that some of the top players 3/6 month injury breaks are in fact behind the doors doping bans.

    Yeap, theres a lot of speculation there alright.

    But from what I've read its just as prevalent as the other top sports despite needing considerable talent as well. You need endless hours of training every day just as much as the other sports.


  • Registered Users Posts: 55,207 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    It's generally accepted that some of the top players 3/6 month injury breaks are in fact behind the doors doping bans.

    Who accepts this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    walshb wrote: »
    Who accepts this?

    Anyone who doesn't believe that tennis is the only sport that missed out on the benefits of doping.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,851 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Only way to combat drugs in sport is to limit the money in it.

    Andy Murray has earned 60m, which is a stupid amount.

    How much has farah earned? Surely better investing that in facilities instead of making people silly rich.

    Once the money is silly then you will have drugs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 55,207 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    Anyone who doesn't believe that tennis is the only sport that missed out on the benefits of doping.

    Thanks for clearing that up...


  • Registered Users Posts: 55,207 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Only way to combat drugs in sport is to limit the money in it.

    Andy Murray has earned 60m, which is a stupid amount.

    How much has farah earned? Surely better investing that in facilities instead of making people silly rich.

    Once the money is silly then you will have drugs.

    Are you implying that Murray is a cheat?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    I agree, and I don't! Lance Armstrong wouldn't have been exposed if it wasn't for David Walshe and Paul Kimmage. It had nothing to do with drug testing. He never failed a test...nor did Carl Lewis :rolleyes: It wasn't a Spanish club that was at the centre of the scandal it was an Italian Old Lady. I suppose the reason that cycling, athletics and swimming have bigger problems is that so much of ones ability is based on physical prowess. You need other skills for tennis, rugby, football etc but runners and cyclists need speed and endurance which can be improved by drugs.

    It was Dr Fuentes i was referring to. A lot of players from a very big Spanish club visiting him. Probably just to say hello right enough. I'm sure there's no more in it then Mo and Salazar.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,851 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    walshb wrote: »
    Are you implying that Murray is a cheat?

    Did I imply farah was?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭S.L.F.




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    Only way to combat drugs in sport is to limit the money in it.

    Andy Murray has earned 60m, which is a stupid amount.

    How much has farah earned? Surely better investing that in facilities instead of making people silly rich.

    Once the money is silly then you will have drugs.

    As someone mentioned before it's the hypocrisy that kills me. How can everyone immediately decide that 3 runners from a country with a 1.375 billion who could beat Sonia were drug cheats while a small Carribean island hoovers up sprint medals to acclaim....that a runner who trailed in said Sonia's wake could run a marathon minutes faster than convicted drugs cheats. The list could go on. To ignore it is madness


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,851 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    S.L.F. wrote: »

    Are all competitors in the olympics available to the same drug tests?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    S.L.F. wrote: »
    There's big coverage of doping in Tennis. The field isn't as vast as athletics though so it seems like less coverage.

    I watch a lot of tennis. Doping is never discussed.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 55,207 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Did I imply farah was?

    We’ll leave it there...answers questions with questions goes nowhere.


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