Stallions

01-11-2017 01:28PM

Andalucia wrote: »

the hype behind Frankel as a stallion has yet to manifest itself on the racecourse

he appears to have a very low runner to covering ratio, of 194 coverings, only 24 2 yo's have appeared to date in latest racing crop

I'd much prefer Nathaniel at 1/8th of the price

Nathaniel 2 Group winners
Frankel 16 Group winners

Genuinely confused by a statement like "the hype behind Frankel as a stallion has yet to manifest itself on the racecourse". He's doing absolutely fine on any metric you want to look at, hence the fee increase. I suspect he'll have a big year next year, but we shall see.

Sale prices and hence covering fees are ALL totally bonkers of course but that's not his fault.

Imhof Tank · 01-11-2017 01:49PM

Andalucia wrote: »

the hype behind Frankel as a stallion has yet to manifest itself on the racecourse

he appears to have a very low runner to covering ratio, of 194 coverings, only 24 2 yo's have appeared to date in latest racing crop

I'd much prefer Nathaniel at 1/8th of the price

All a function of sales results.

Frankel average GB/IRE yearling sale price £544021
Nathaniel average GB/IRE yearling price £78669

The commercial breeder going to Nathaniel for value is fishing in a completely different pool compared to the guy with the quality mare required for a Frankel covering hoping for a £1m+ yearling.

diomed · 01-11-2017 02:07PM

If you look at the 2014 Frankel 122 progeny on pedigreequery.com many are unraced.
I think five have made their Frankel covering fee in race earnings in two years of racing (2016 as 2yo, and 2017 as 3yo).
My guess is the auction prices averaged more than the covering fee.
Perhaps when 2017 ends the numbers will update a little.
One or two might make it as stallions and repay the investment.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php?query_type=progeny&search_bar=progeny&h=FRANKEL3&sort=Year&done=y&filter=All%20Horses&cf=

Imhof Tank · 01-11-2017 02:13PM

diomed wrote: »

If you look at the 2014 Frankel 122 progeny on pedigreequery.com many are unraced.
I think five have made their Frankel covering fee in race earnings in two years of racing (2016 as 2yo, and 2017 as 3yo).
My guess is the auction prices averaged more than the covering fee.
Perhaps when 2017 ends the numbers will update a little.
One or two might make it as stallions and repay the investment.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php?query_type=progeny&search_bar=progeny&h=FRANKEL3&sort=Year&done=y&filter=All%20Horses&cf=

Will you forget about race earnings - that is only relevant to owner breeders.

Yearling sales results is the only true marker of value or no in the stallion's early years.

diomed · 01-11-2017 03:24PM

I pointed out the discrepancy between price and value.
Stallion owners are not the only people in racing.

Initially a stallion will have high regard based on his race record.
To maintain stud fees the offspring have to have: race earnings; stud value.
If the offspring do not have race earnings they are unlikely to have stud value.

diomed · 01-11-2017 04:36PM

These racing books are well written with many photographs.
(The author is a photographer who worked in the Noel Murless stables for a while).
Cost is a bit expensive. My most recent purchase cost £50 when shipping was added.

http://www.miralgopublishing.co.uk/shop

tryfix · 01-11-2017 06:10PM

If you were to take racetrack earnings into account then none of the of the top stallions would be worth touching.

It's all about the industry extracting cash from rich people who want to indulge themselves by having racehorses

Frankel is typical of the influence that fashion has on prices.

tryfix · 01-11-2017 06:23PM

What's the view re Highland Reel's prospects at stud?

There's no reason that he couldn't be a good sire of Middle-distance horses and he was a group winner at two. He'd have to be well supported to get off the ground as a stallion before he's shunted off somewhere foreign.

He's maybe a similar type to High Chaparral?

tryfix · 01-11-2017 08:42PM

Jack Hobbs is off to Overbury Stud for a career as a NH Stallion beginning his career at a fee of £4,000.

It's not easy anymore for an Irish Derby winner to get into the flat stallion game. Perceived stamina is a curse.

01-11-2017 11:52PM

tryfix wrote: »

Jack Hobbs is off to Overbury Stud for a career as a NH Stallion beginning his career at a fee of £4,000.

It's not easy anymore for an Irish Derby winner to get into the flat stallion game. Perceived stamina is a curse.

This may sound like a stupid question but can anyone explain why Deep Impact (winner of a Japanese St leger and a tenno sho over 2m) commands a fee north of 150k whilst over here horses winning similar races are considered damaged goods when it comes to stud fees?

Horse racing is an international business after all, it makes no sense to me (but I don't know much about the subject).

tryfix · 02-11-2017 01:16AM

Deleted User wrote: »

This may sound like a stupid question but can anyone explain why Deep Impact (winner of a Japanese St leger and a tenno sho over 2m) commands a fee north of 150k whilst over here horses winning similar races are considered damaged goods when it comes to stud fees?

Horse racing is an international business after all, it makes no sense to me (but I don't know much about the subject).

1. The most highly prized and valuable races in Japan are middle distance and staying races. The Japanese had a policy of importing top middle-distance breeding stock in the hope of producing the best middle-distance horses in the world. They are doing very well in that regard.

Germany also appreciates stamina influences, which is why German breeding is popping up in top staying pedigrees around the world.

2. Deep Impact was a monster Racehorse who only lost one race in his career and who started his career in a 10f race as a 2yo and never attempted to win a race at below 10f in his career.

3. Deep Impact was Japan's Frankel on the racecourse and like Frankel he was out of an outstanding Champion Sire.

4. He's a brilliant Sire with plenty of miler winners as well as staying types and commands a suitable fee.

In Australia they often try their top 10-12f horse in the 2M Melbourne Cup, which isn't seen as a slight on the horses breeding potential, ( although in fairness I can't think of any notable middle-distance Australian stallions.. So You Think is much more popular down there than up here ) . It must a big money race thing. If your top prize money races are staying races then the harm to a stallion of running it is negligible.

Here a fashionable bloodline is nearly as important as form over shorter trips.

The old cheaply bought Richard Hannon types are now almost unwanted as stallions. I see the unfashionable multiple group winning Jeremy horse Kool Kompany was sold to a Spanish stud for just £110,000 Guineas.

Toormore a Champion 2yo and a multiple Group 2 winner at 4 couldn't get enough mares sent to him at stud ( for £5k I think) for him to stand as a stallion and he is now somewhere in the ether.

diomed · 02-11-2017 01:24PM

This week I was in e-mail contact with someone looking for a book I've been trying to trace for a while.
I casually mentioned that I have about 900 horseracing books. He casually mentioned that he has 18,000. :pac:

diomed · 02-11-2017 01:40PM

Deleted User wrote: »

This may sound like a stupid question but can anyone explain why Deep Impact (winner of a Japanese St leger and a tenno sho over 2m) commands a fee north of 150k whilst over here horses winning similar races are considered damaged goods when it comes to stud fees?

Deep Impact's fee seems to me to make more sense than the fees in GB/IRE.

I looked at his statistics on the JBIS website.
Progeny earnings €294,166,691 for 1,101 starters which is average race earnings of €290,966 per starter.
The starters 1,011 is very good from 1,395 foals, much better than the horse that gets mentioned a lot here.

http://www.jbis.jp/horse/0000742976/sire/generation/

I used 133.046 yen = €1

02-11-2017 02:00PM

diomed wrote: »

Deep Impact's fee seems to me to make more sense than the fees in GB/IRE.

I looked at his statistics on the JBIS website.
Progeny earnings €294,166,691 for 1,101 starters which is average race earnings of €290,966 per starter.
The starters 1,011 is very good from 1,395 foals, much better than the horse that gets mentioned a lot here.

http://www.jbis.jp/horse/0000742976/sire/generation/

I used 133.046 yen = €1

I think what confuses me is why there is such a deeply ingrained prejudice against stallions with proven stamina over here. We all know the whole cliche about the St Leger but at this stage it almost feels like the Derby is a negative in terms of breeding prospects.

Can you imagine ANY cup horse, no matter how much of a phenomenon and what else they won, having a serious stud career at a fee of 150K+? What does Yeats go for nowadays, probably about 5K. Not sure he was ever tried as a flat sire.

The comparison isn't totally bonkers as Deep Impact was largely campaigned at 1m4 - 2m.

diomed · 02-11-2017 02:35PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I think what confuses me is why there is such a deeply ingrained prejudice against stallions with proven stamina over here. We all know the whole cliche about the St Leger but at this stage it almost feels like the Derby is a negative in terms of breeding prospects.

It think it is about prizemoney.
People who pay high stallion fees do not care about the cost, but lower down costs are very real.
This week I read about someone in racing giving riding instructions to a teenager.
The teenager had more than 50 Rolls Royces and many other cars. He has a large car park to house them.
When the person visited six months later the teenager had a six story car park and many more expensive cars.
(I wish I could remember where I read this (Brough Scott?). People from that background do not care about stallion fees.)

At the lower level mare costs of €10k+, mare boarding costs of €10k/year, stallion fee €10k+, training fees of about €20k/year are difficult to find.
People want a horse that is ready to race as a 2yo.
These precocious types are sprint bred, and will never race beyond about a mile.

Sprint bred: training fees for one year €20k
Middle-distance bred: training fees for two years €40k
Long distance bred: training fees for three or more years €60k

And this is a loop. People want sprint bred horses to race, so sprint bred sires are more in demand.
If you race a sprint bred there is a chance you could also sell him as a sire.
With a cup horse you very little chance of selling him as a sire.
Many cup horses are geldings due to lack of demand as stallions, and the difficulty of keeping an entire interested in racing for a long racing career.

tryfix · 06-11-2017 11:57AM

Just a little bit of Breeder Cup breeding to pass on.

O'Brien's 2yo sprint winner at Del Mar, Declaration Of Peace is an interesting project.

He's a War Front half brother to Honor Code an Eclipse Champion in the States and their dam is a half sister to Jim Bolger's favoured stallion Vocalised.

gazza1 · 07-11-2017 12:31PM

So coolmore have bought Tepin for 8M and will have a date with Galileo in 2018.
Can't wait to see what that combo produces

diomed · 07-11-2017 02:16PM

gazza1 wrote: »

So coolmore have bought Tepin for 8M and will have a date with Galileo in 2018.
Can't wait to see what that combo produces

I can see from her pedigree why Tepin is a good filly.
There is a chance a filly foal might be good, better than a colt foal imo.

tryfix · 07-11-2017 10:44PM

diomed wrote: »

I can see from her pedigree why Tepin is a good filly.
There is a chance a filly foal might be good, better than a colt foal imo.

Prices of broodmares and potential broodmares from the top level have gone through the roof. At least Tepin was something extraordinary and she's carrying to Curlin. Songbird made 9.5 million but she's exceptional as well.

When you saw the likes of Gp3 winner Aloof going for 3.9 million then something crazy is going on.

Churchill's fee has been set at €35,000 and it'll take more than a hundred of his coverings to buy a mare like Aloof.

There has to be a rebalancing ahead, those sales figures are nuts compared to the potential returns.

tryfix · 08-11-2017 01:36AM

The €17,500 fee announced for Highland Reel seems to be fair enough, for anyone trying to breed a nice hardy racehorse for themselves and the odd few will make decent money at the sales.

BumperD · 08-11-2017 02:58AM

Slightly off topic but I see Coolmore purchased Tepin as a broodnare for 8m
She should produce some exciting offspring with Galileo lined up for 18.

tryfix · 08-11-2017 07:03PM

Decorated Knight going to stand at the Irish National Stud. I think that's a great acquisition for them and they are a great stud for making a sire. He's superbly bred on the dam side with plenty of natural speed of his own. He's also a tidy horse so he won't suffer from throwing big stock.

Really looking forward to seeing how his career progresses when his first 3yo crop hit the track.

tryfix · 10-11-2017 11:55AM

Dark Angel's fee rises from €65,000 to €85,000. He's had his best year yet and was the nearest challenger to Galileo for the GB and Ireland top sire by earnings.

Not too sure where he goes from here, but he deserves his success.

diomed · 10-11-2017 06:12PM

This morning I got the Return of Mares 2017 in the post from Weatherbys.
It has stats on the coverings by each stallion.

Dark Angel 2016 (194); 2017 (223).
The horse gets a pick of grass and the owner does better.

Copper_pipe · 05-12-2017 08:58PM

A friend for Galileo....

https://twitter.com/Tattersalls1766/status/938108550592819201

diomed · 05-12-2017 09:22PM

Marsha won't do well with Northern Dancer line stallions imo.
Her ability comes from Hyperion.
Good racemares and good broodmares are two different species.
I expect average.

BumperD · 06-12-2017 02:37AM

Elite racing club members can expect a dividend of 55p

diomed · 06-12-2017 12:35PM

BumperD wrote: »

Elite racing club members can expect a dividend of 55p

Or nil. :cool:
I think section xx in the Terms & Conditions covers ownership (or the lack of)
https://www.eliteracingclub.co.uk/terms-and-conditions-of-membership.aspx

tryfix · 10-12-2017 08:14PM

Orfevre gets a first crop G1 winner in Japan today with the 2yo filly Lucky Lilac.

GillLebowski · 13-01-2018 06:33AM

Just wondering, anybody know of anywhere I can get a list of all the different horses a stallion has sired.

If I was looking at checking every horse that has been sired by Frankel, is there anywhere I can check this?

Thanks...

Edit: Never mind, think I found one.

Anyone know anywhere I can check if a trainer has has any horses sired by a horse, or whether a sire's progeny are racing with a certain trainer?

Stallions

Comments