Are we over the annual poppy thread?

02-11-2017 01:05PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

not a copout at all. what another country decides to do to honour their dead is entirely up to them. Of course you are entitled to give your opinion on what they do and they are equally entitled to ignore that opinion.

It is, of course, a shrivelling cop-out - which you tend to do on the many occasions you have no answer. You claimed wearing the British poppy was a 'discreet' (did you actually mean 'discrete'?) commemoration. When it was pointed out that it is a commemoration organised by the jingoistic Royal British Legion to publicly glorify the footsoldiers of the British Empire/Commonwealth, you sidestepped this and engaged in some chimera or other.

As most of us know, if you want to make a discreet commemoration of a "loved one" (just how old are you?) who fought for the British, you don't need any symbol. You could walk down to their grave or to your local church. Or just pray. But no, you choose to "discreetly" commemorate them with an explicitly political and very public symbol. No logic there, once again.

FrancieBrady · 02-11-2017 01:05PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

see, i have no idea why you put opinion in quotes. seems like a crass attempt at a veiled insult. to be expected i suppose.

my opinion is that it would be too gaudy for my tastes though i can see why they did it at the tower of london in 2014 for the centenary. I prefer discreet myself. like this.

I quoted you, why would that be a 'veiled insult' (see, I did it again, quoted you)

And by the way, the question was would you see it as being insensitive to have that display in a city like Belfast.
Would a ceremony that remembered all the dead of conflicts/war not be more progressive and healing?

02-11-2017 01:09PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I prefer discreet myself. like this.

Yes, as is clear from this thread, you don't actually know what the word "discreet" means.

A Little Pony · 02-11-2017 01:11PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

indioblack wrote: »

Years ago I debated the poppy issue with a poster now long gone from Boards.
His objection concerned British imperialism and the British military in Ireland, [he specified Bloody Sunday].
My reply was to have no remembrance at all - nothing else I believed, could satisfy him or be practically achieved.
His response was to suggest remembrance for the participants in the two world wars only.
I replied that this could not be. The participants in both wars would have been, indirectly and willingly or otherwise, maintaining British imperialism - therefore the only practical solution was to end the commemorations.
I added that this should apply to any state or section of a country that made reference to it's past, however respectfully, if that past included events that are objectionable on moral grounds.

Interesting angle.

Personally I don't think there is a need to do away with remembrance. But the poppy thing shows there is a thin line between remembrance and glorification and provocation.
We as a state took great care, not to provoke or glorify, in our remembrance of 1916.
Other states should copy.

To be fair nothing to glorify about 1916. A load of people hiding in a post office who eventually got shot.

FrancieBrady · 02-11-2017 01:14PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

To be fair nothing to glorify about 1916. A load of people hiding in a post office who eventually got shot.

QED.

Perfect timing there ALP. You never let us down.

ohnonotgmail · 02-11-2017 01:19PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It is, of course, a shrivelling cop-out - which you tend to do on the many occasions you have no answer. You claimed wearing the British poppy was a 'discreet' (did you actually mean 'discrete'?) commemoration. When it was pointed out that it is a commemoration organised by the jingoistic Royal British Legion to publicly glorify the footsoldiers of the British Empire/Commonwealth, you sidestepped this and engaged in some chimera or other.

As most of us know, if you want to make a discreet commemoration of a "loved one" (just how old are you?) who fought for the British, you don't need any symbol. You could walk down to their grave or to your local church. Or just pray. But no, you choose to "discreetly" commemorate them with an explicitly political and very public symbol. No logic there, once again.

If you are going to be a grammar nazi at least have the good sense to make sure you are correct before embarrassing yourself

discreet
dɪˈskriːt/
adjective
adjective: discreet; comparative adjective: discreeter; superlative adjective: discreetest
careful and prudent in one's speech or actions, especially in order to keep something confidential or to avoid embarrassment.
"we made some discreet inquiries"
synonyms:careful, circumspect, cautious, wary, chary, guarded, close-lipped, close-mouthed; Moretactful, diplomatic, considerate, politic, prudent, judicious, strategic, wise, sensible;
delicate, kid-glove;
informalsoftly-softly
"I'll make some discreet inquiries"

antonyms:indiscreet, rash

intentionally unobtrusive.
"a discreet cough"
synonyms:unobtrusive, inconspicuous; More

discrete
dɪˈskriːt/
adjective
adjective: discrete
individually separate and distinct.
"speech sounds are produced as a continuous sound signal rather than discrete units"
synonyms:separate, distinct, individual, detached, unattached, disconnected, discontinuous, disjunct, disjoined "speech sounds are produced as a continuous signal rather than discrete units"

antonyms:connecte

ohnonotgmail · 02-11-2017 01:20PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, as is clear from this thread, you don't actually know what the word "discreet" means.

that you managed to embarrass yourself twice in the same way within a few minutes is outstanding.

02-11-2017 01:28PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Would a ceremony that remembered all the dead of conflicts/war not be more progressive and healing?

Aha! Jackpot move right there. I'd love to hear the poppy brigade's response to that...

Somebody proposed that the Orange Order parades be more inclusive of nationalists back in the late 1990s and you could hear the choking on the cornflakes in Orange land. Almost as funny as the time in the 1990s when Martin McGuinness gave a big talk on how people (!!) in the North must include the gay community. Either Martin was way ahead of his time, or he really embraced the 'There are many ways to skin a cat' philosophy. Or both.

Without being a "fúck you" to victims, which is precisely what the red poppy is while it excludes the victims of the British Empire from its commemorations, the British poppy has no meaning that would attract its current wearers. They'd wear the white poppy if they were into non-tribal, inclusive symbolism.

FrancieBrady · 02-11-2017 01:32PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Aha! Jackpot move right there. I'd love to hear the poppy brigade's response to that...

Somebody proposed that the Orange Order parades be more inclusive of nationalists back in the late 1990s and you could hear the choking on the cornflakes in Orange land. Almost as funny as the time in the 1990s when Martin McGuinness gave a big talk on how people (!!) in the North must include the gay community. Either Martin was way ahead of his time, or he really embraced the 'There are many ways to skin a cat' philosophy. Or both.

Without being a "fúck you" to victims, which is precisely what the red poppy is while it excludes the victims of the British Empire from its commemorations, the British poppy has no meaning that would attract its current wearers. They'd wear the white poppy if they were into non-tribal, inclusive symbolism.

I think the concensus you would have to reach reading these threads is that there is no surrender to the idea of a 'non tribal, inclusive' remembrance of the dead of the many conflicts the Irish have been involved in.

Very like the parades/flegs issue actually.

02-11-2017 01:40PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

If you are going to be a grammar nazi at least have the good sense to make sure you are correct before embarrassing yourself

I see, after much egg on your face, you finally discovered that there is a word 'discrete' and it has a very different meaning to 'discreet'. Well done. So, did you really mean to say that wearing your British poppy in Ireland was a discrete symbol, as in a distinct symbol?

It's certainly that; it's not every day that somebody in Ireland wears a symbol that glorifies the murder and barbarism of the British Empire.

PS: Questioning the meaning of a word you're using does not make one a "grammar nazi". Duh.

ohnonotgmail · 02-11-2017 01:43PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I see, after much egg on your face, you finally discovered that there is a word 'discrete' and it has a very different meaning to 'discreet'. Well done. So, did you really mean to say that wearing your British poppy in Ireland was a discrete symbol, as in a distinct symbol?

It's certainly that; it's not every day that somebody in Ireland wears a symbol that glorifies the murder and barbarism of the British Empire.

PS: Questioning the meaning of a word you're using does not make one a "grammar nazi". Duh.

no i clearly meant discreet. I consider a small inch wide poppy discreet. I'm also well aware of the word discrete. I dont need english lessons from the likes of you. You thought you were being clever in 'correcting' me. that definitely falls under the grammar nazi heading.

02-11-2017 01:45PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

that I managed to embarrass myself twice in the same way within a few minutes is outstanding.

FYP. You still haven't managed to tackle the question, of course. But congratulations again on discovering the word 'discrete' and that you really meant to use it rather than 'discreet'. hehe.

A Little Pony · 02-11-2017 01:46PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

see, i have no idea why you put opinion in quotes. seems like a crass attempt at a veiled insult. to be expected i suppose.

my opinion is that it would be too gaudy for my tastes though i can see why they did it at the tower of london in 2014 for the centenary. I prefer discreet myself. like this.

I quoted you, why would that be a 'veiled insult' (see, I did it again, quoted you)

And by the way, the question was would you see it as being insensitive to have that display in a city like Belfast.
Would a ceremony that remembered all the dead of conflicts/war not be more progressive and healing?

I wouldn't. I couldn't imagine remembering IRA and ISIS terrorists in any sort of ceremony.

FrancieBrady · 02-11-2017 01:49PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

I wouldn't. I couldn't imagine remembering IRA and ISIS terrorists in any sort of ceremony.

But you don't care if anybody else has a problem with those you are commemorating?

I think you very much 'care' tbh.

A Little Pony · 02-11-2017 01:52PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

I wouldn't. I couldn't imagine remembering IRA and ISIS terrorists in any sort of ceremony.

But you don't care if anybody else has a problem with those you are commemorating?

I think you very much 'care' tbh.

Not really, no. I just wouldn't remember those terrorist groups.

02-11-2017 01:53PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

no i clearly meant discreet. I consider a small inch wide poppy discreet. I'm also well aware of the word discrete. I dont need english lessons from the likes of you. You thought you were being clever in 'correcting' me. that definitely falls under the grammar nazi heading.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

No, I clearly meant discreet. I consider a small inch wide poppy discreet. I'm also well aware of the word discrete. I don't need English lessons from the likes of you. You thought you were being clever in 'correcting' me. That definitely falls under the grammar nazi heading.

Ok, then.

PS: You did, of course, mean 'discrete', as in 'distinct' - you're just too embarrassed to admit it now. As I said, if you wanted a 'discreet' commemoration, you wouldn't wear a very public and very political symbol like the poppy. But nice deflection from this main point on to a point of "grammar" (hehe), that you also lost.

FrancieBrady · 02-11-2017 01:58PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Not really, no. I just wouldn't remember those terrorist groups.

I wasn't asking you to specifically remember them.
What I was asking you to do was get behind a ceremony - symbol - that allows all to remember who they want to (everyone has lost loved ones after all) and to get rid of a symbol that glorifies the activities of one army, mired in controversy, over the centuries.

You and others have quite clearly demonstrated after all that you can compartmentalise your remembrance and claim it isn't necessary to wear a badge to trigger it. So why not do it as part of a wider more inclusive ceremony?

Skylinehead · 02-11-2017 01:59PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok, then.

PS: You did, of course, mean 'discrete', as in 'distinct' - you're just too embarrassed to admit it now. As I said, if you wanted a 'discreet' commemoration, you wouldn't wear a very public and very political symbol like the poppy. But nice deflection from this main point on to a point of "grammar" (hehe), that you also lost.

He quite obviously didn't. Discreet is the correct word. Now stop being a (failed) grammar Nazi please.

A Little Pony · 02-11-2017 02:00PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Not really, no. I just wouldn't remember those terrorist groups.

I wasn't asking you to specifically remember them.
What I was asking you to do was get behind a ceremony - symbol - that allows all to remember who they want to (everyone has lost loved ones after all) and to get rid of a symbol that glorifies the activities of one army, mired in controversy, over the centuries.

You and others have quite clearly demonstrated after all that you can compartmentalise your remembrance and claim it isn't necessary to wear a badge to trigger it. So why not do it as part of a wider more inclusive ceremony?

I wouldn't but you can go ahead and remember who you want. It's a free country.

FrancieBrady · 02-11-2017 02:02PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

I wouldn't but you can go ahead and remember who you want. It's a free country.

So as we all suspect, it really isn't what the RBL fervently try and claim it is. Thanks for that.

ohnonotgmail · 02-11-2017 02:02PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok, then.

PS: You did, of course, mean 'discrete', as in 'distinct' - you're just too embarrassed to admit it now. As I said, if you wanted a 'discreet' commemoration, you wouldn't wear a very public and very political symbol like the poppy. But nice deflection from this main point on to a point of "grammar" (hehe), that you also lost.

One can be in public and also discreet. the two are not mutually exclusive.
the poppy i wear is not political. it commemorates irish men who died. not everything has to be political. you probably find that thought distressing.

A Little Pony · 02-11-2017 02:03PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

I wouldn't but you can go ahead and remember who you want. It's a free country.

So as we all suspect, it really isn't what the RBL fervently try and claim it is. Thanks for that.

I am one person, I don't represent the RBL or anyone else, I only give my personal view.

02-11-2017 02:06PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

He quite obviously didn't. Discreet is the correct word. Now stop being a (failed) grammar Nazi please.

Clearly the fact that he is claiming a very public and explicitly political symbol like the poppy is "discreet" undermines your interpretation. It is, however, certainly a discrete, as in distinct, symbol in Ireland. Or else his "discreet" claim lacks logic...

PS: Seeking clarification on whether somebody is using the correct word doesn't make somebody a 'grammar' anything. They are two plainly discrete issues.

Mod-Banned

A Little Pony · 02-11-2017 02:06PM

Deleted User wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Would a ceremony that remembered all the dead of conflicts/war not be more progressive and healing?

Aha! Jackpot move right there. I'd love to hear the poppy brigade's response to that...

Somebody proposed that the Orange Order parades be more inclusive of nationalists back in the late 1990s and you could hear the choking on the cornflakes in Orange land. Almost as funny as the time in the 1990s when Martin McGuinness gave a big talk on how people (!!) in the North must include the gay community. Either Martin was way ahead of his time, or he really embraced the 'There are many ways to skin a cat' philosophy. Or both.

Without being a "fúck you" to victims, which is precisely what the red poppy is while it excludes the victims of the British Empire from its commemorations, the British poppy has no meaning that would attract its current wearers. They'd wear the white poppy if they were into non-tribal, inclusive symbolism.

You might not like the British but you always defend Roman Catholicism on here ignoring the rape of children all over the island.

FrancieBrady · 02-11-2017 02:07PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

One can be in public and also discreet. the two are not mutually exclusive.
the poppy i wear is not political. it commemorates irish men who died. not everything has to be political. you probably find that thought distressing.

It very clearly commemorates Irish men and women who died fighting for the British in 1914 - 1918 to my eyes.

The Shamrock counter pointed with the Poppy.

Personally I remember everyone who died during that period and that badge just doesn't cover it.

ohnonotgmail · 02-11-2017 02:11PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Clearly the fact that he is claiming a very public and explicitly political symbol like the poppy is "discreet" undermines your interpretation. It is, however, certainly a discrete, as in distinct, symbol in Ireland. Or else his "discreet" claim lacks logic...

PS: Seeking clarification on whether somebody is using the correct word doesn't make somebody a 'grammar' anything. They are two plainly discrete issues.

I think i am the final arbiter on what I meant not you.

ohnonotgmail · 02-11-2017 02:12PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It very clearly commemorates Irish men and women who died fighting for the British in 1914 - 1918 to my eyes.

The Shamrock counter pointed with the Poppy.

Personally I remember everyone who died during that period and that badge just doesn't cover it.

it absolutely does commemorate those and women. how you personally do something is for you to decide. you seem to think that should have some bearing on what others do.

02-11-2017 02:17PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

One can be in public and also discreet.

How? And the point of wearing a symbol on clothing on your upper body is certainly not to be discreet about your views.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the two are not mutually exclusive.
the poppy i wear is not political. it commemorates irish men who died. not everything has to be political. you probably find that thought distressing.

Except, the British red poppy doesn't commemorate "Irishmen" or even "Irish men". It commemorates people who served in the forces of the British Empire/Commonwealth. It has an explicit political aim, in fact. The poppy campaign was established by, and is promoted by, an explicitly political organisation, the Royal British Legion. Furthermore, it is a British public campaign, organised by an explicitly British organisation.

So, if you genuinely - and genuinely is the key word here - wanted to commemorate "Irish men who died" (all of them, including those people whose politics you don't share), you have the option of going to the National Day of Commemoration for Ireland, rather than partaking in a British commemoration.

Ireland: National Day of Commemoration

FrancieBrady · 02-11-2017 02:18PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

it absolutely does commemorate those and women. how you personally do something is for you to decide. you seem to think that should have some bearing on what others do.

Yes, and it is therefore a 'political' choice.
You are excluding some who died during the period to remember specific others. You are making the point that some were on the 'right' side, the side you see fit to remember.
Which, in relation to WW1 is a very disrespectful stance to take as 99% of them were innocent subjects used as cannon fodder.

Lest we forget, indeed. Wearing that badge very loudly proclaims 'I am forgetting' all the others who died.

ohnonotgmail · 02-11-2017 02:25PM

Deleted User wrote: »

How? And the point of wearing a symbol on clothing on your upper body is certainly not to be discreet about your views.

Except, the British red poppy doesn't commemorate "Irishmen" or even "Irish men". It commemorates people who served in the forces of the British Empire/Commonwealth. It has an explicit political aim, in fact. The poppy campaign was established by, and is promoted by, an explicitly political organisation, the Royal British Legion. Furthermore, it is a British public campaign, organised by an explicitly British organisation.

So, if you genuinely - and genuinely is the key word here - wanted to commemorate "Irish men who died" (all of them, including those people whose politics you don't share), you have the option of going to the National Day of Commemoration for Ireland, rather than partaking in a British commemoration.

Ireland: National Day of Commemoration

you seem obsessed with britain. unnaturally so. The poppy i wear is specifically for the irish who died in 1914-18. for some reason you have a problem with that.

Are we over the annual poppy thread?

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