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#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

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Comments

  • #242
    anewme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,146 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    You've clearly been through a lot and have come out the other side understandably broken and bitter.
    B0jangles wrote: »
    Aaaaaand, there it is.

    If all else fails you're a broken and bitter harpy who just HATES ALL MEN.

    Anything to avoid acknowledging that there is a problem.

    That attitude ( you must be broken) is poison and to change things, maybe start changing this.


  • #243
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭professore


    anewme wrote: »
    When you have men believing that young girls (teenagers) from a very young age set out to manipulate adult men using sex, this kind of behaviour is condoned instead of being stamped out.

    You are conflating two unrelated things. SOME women use sex to manipulate men, just as SOME men are perverts. Maybe you don't know it happens because your father, son or husband wouldn't be believed if they told you?


  • #244
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,292 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    sonic85 wrote: »
    What do you want us to do about it - serious question? Can the women on the thread actually give solutions to this in a clear and concise way?
    *sound of crickets*

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #245
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Let's change "men" to "black people" in this thread.


  • #246
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,874 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    kylith wrote: »
    Have you not been paying attention?

    We get whistled and shouted at in the street.
    We get groped in pubs.
    We get cornered by men who will not take no for an answer, or who get aggressive when rejected.
    We have it drummed into us from the time we hit puberty: 'don't be alone with a man'
    Every man on a quiet street is a potential threat
    Every man walking behind us could be a rapist
    Men we don't know are threats
    Men we do know are even bigger threats
    The single biggest threat to women is men


    Kylith I'll be honest, I was almost sure you were going for sarcasm with that post, the last line being the 'giveaway' as such that you were purposely exaggerating to parody some of the more extreme wacky stuff that's put out there on social media.

    This I think is the problem at the core of using social media to get your message across, to anyone really. Having read your subsequent posts, I now realise that you were being serious, but the problem is that while I do believe you... I just can't take that post seriously!

    I believe you think men are the biggest threat to women, but I don't believe they actually are, and a claim like that is not something I would expect anyone, regardless of their sex, should ever actually be expected to take seriously. I don't believe it's a message that does anything either for women, or for men.

    Macmillan150 wrote: »
    Is there ANY woman here who hasn't been approached inappropriately in some way. The #metoo is to show that this is so so widespread. Men don't believe it unless it has happened to them. But men still don't believe it. The " not all men" thing is grand to hide behind and many men believe this stuff is done by only a few men. But it is done by many many many men.
    Does my husband or dad know that I was 10 the first time a man grabbed my crotch ( or a thousand other incidences that happened along the way). No, because women do not talk about it. Go ask your girlfriends to list out all the times they were touched when they didn't want to be when and I'm sure they will tell you. But I'm betting they will tell you loads but edit out the really bad things, the things that hurt too much to mention, the ones that can't be just tutted away. I didn't join the metoo thing on my public profiles because what's the point. Men don't think there's a problem. If there's no problem there's no need for s solution.


    I know there's a problem, and I've talked to many young girls and women who have experienced a whole spectrum of inappropriate and untoward behaviour perpetrated by men, and the young girls and women I talk to and have talked to, don't filter anything. I've always taken what they've said seriously, for the simple reason that they have never tried to blame me (apart from one false allegation of rape which saw me being beaten within an inch of my life because other men took her claim seriously, but I don't blame her for the actions of those men), and they have never tried to blame all men, and they have never bothered with simplistic platitudes and hashtags thinking that would ever undo what was done to them, that it would even go anywhere near being any kind of a cathartic closure they wanted, that it would ever make any real impact on what they experienced, that they would ever gain anything from prostrating themselves on social media for validation.

    The metoo hashtag means something to some people obviously, but to many more people, it simply means nothing more than the typical virtue signalling that's become so common on social media as a means of validation, literally saying to their peers "me too", because being seen as a victim of something, anything, and being seen as a "survivor" of something, anything, is now popular social currency, which has value for those who trade in that currency, but to anyone else, it has no value whatsoever, and never actually contributes anything of any value to society. It's just another way to say "me too". It's not that I don't want to take someone who says "me too" seriously, it's that I just can't, and that's nothing to do with me being a man, it's to do with being falsely accused of something I haven't done, by some anonymous person on the internet that I don't know and have never met, nor have any inclination to want to get to know tbh. It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I simply find it very hard to care about anyone who would infer that I should help them because I'm a problem to them. I don't see any beneficial outcome for either of us when that's their starting position.


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  • #247
    anewme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,146 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Wibbs wrote: »
    All men? Most men? Some men? Christ almighty. This polarised nonsense is getting beyond a joke at this stage.

    It is from another thread on Boards yesterday. Two people objected. The majority of other posters rounded on the two that objected instead of objecting to the attitude.


  • #248
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭professore


    It's baffling. The vast majority of men are disgusted by rape and sexual assault. Yet somehow we are all told we are the problem when a woman gets sexually assaulted and doesn't tell us about it. Sure a few more consent classes would have given us telepathy.


  • #249
    neonsofa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    professore wrote: »
    It's baffling. The vast majority of men are disgusted by rape and sexual assault. Yet somehow we are all told we are the problem when a woman gets sexually assaulted and doesn't tell us about it. Sure a few more consent classes would have given us telepathy.

    Are you talking about a specific post here or the general me too hashtag?


  • #250
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    sonic85 wrote: »
    What do you want us to do about it - serious question? Can the women on the thread actually give solutions to this in a clear and concise way?

    I don't do pubs or clubs anymore so I don't see some of the drunken sh!t that happens but in my everyday life I haven't seen much in the way of the harassment that women say they've endured. All I can say from my own point of view is if my sister or mother told me about something that happened to them and I knew who did it they'd never lay their hand on another woman again

    A really good start would be to just listen and actually believe women when they tell you about the harassment they've experienced.

    In my experience, one of the commonest reactions is for the listener to jump to trying to explain away what happened as drunken messing, or a misunderstanding, or... some other convoluted explanation for why what happened didn't actually happen. Don't feel like you can make the incident simply not have happened if you explain it away well enough.

    Immediately threatening to attack the perpatrator is not actually helpful; you might feel a lot better but it might make things more difficult for your sister/mother. They might actually be wary of telling you about stuff like this if they think you're going to head off and start cracking heads open.

    What happens if you go overboard and he ends up seriously injured or dead? Trial + prison for you, massive guilt for having told you for your mother/sister.

    The last is the most contentious - if you know one of your friends gets obnoxious and 'handsy' when he's drunk - call that out, don't just laugh awkwardly and say that 'he's a tosser but he's a good guy really'. Shame is a powerful motivator. Even if he still thinks it's just good fun, he'll hopefully stop doing it when he's around you and that's a start.

    Like drunk driving, it used to be incredibly commonplace but it's become more and more of a shameful thing to do so far fewer people do it.


  • #251
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Wibbs wrote: »
    *sound of crickets*

    "Come up with a solution to a huge, widespread and commonplace problem and explain it to me in a very clear and concise way"

    About 5 Minutes pass

    "As I thought, no answers forthcoming, it's all just complaining

    psh :mad:"


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  • #252
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭professore


    neonsofa wrote: »
    professore wrote: »
    It's baffling. The vast majority of men are disgusted by rape and sexual assault. Yet somehow we are all told we are the problem when a woman gets sexually assaulted and doesn't tell us about it. Sure a few more consent classes would have given us telepathy.

    Are you talking about a specific post here or the general me too hashtag?

    Both I guess. It's not like there is no awareness of sexual assault against women, the media talks about it all the time.


  • #253
    Macmillan150
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 52 ✭✭Macmillan150


    What should men do about it?

    This thread should be full of people saying this is terrible behaviour and I'm so sorry these things happened to you. But it's not, it's full of men going on the attack, fathers being deluded that this stuff doesn't happen to their daughters, what aboutisms saying men get attacked ( do women should to?). Or men saying women should speak out or not speak out without proof. Anything and everything instead of " this is not what I want society to be".


  • #254
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Wibbs wrote: »
    This is also becoming a pain in my arse. Please point out where I talked any poster's experiences down. Once will do, or stop lying about what I've said or haven't said. You're not the only poster who has come out with this kind of misrepresentation on this score. Though colour me shocked.

    Apparently they never or very rarely tell men about all these threats and assaults. It's not just a recent thing, even your mother's experiences mirrored your own. What's the bloody point is an easy out and again it's Men's™ fault, even though apparently Women™ don't say anything and haven't for generations. Though again that's hardly accurate, certainly in the last twenty odd years. Society is constantly being reminded how women are near constant victims of sexual harassment and assault and sexism and so forth. It's a mainstay of western society and extremely so in the media.

    Why don't we all tell the men in our lives?

    Because. They. Don't. Listen.

    Like right now, you're switching back to your well-worn, (so very well-worn) stance that Modern Society says All Women are Victims All the Time, (and it's the media's fault).


  • #255
    Christy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,106 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Wibbs wrote: »
    OK.
    So men are ignorant because women don't tell them? Whose "fault" is that? Jesus this is like the stereotype of the man asking a woman "is everything OK?" to be met with either stoney silence or "if you cared you'd know" and an ever increasing scowl, because we're not mind readers.

    Again Men™ aren't bloody psychic. And you wonder why so many don't take this seriously? Unreal. Frankly this nonsense is really starting to give me a pain in my arse.

    I am pretty sure a large part of the campaign is because men are not psychic. Do I know how many of my friends were fondled in nightclubs or on buses? Well I did not but a load of them have started pointing it out through the me too campaign. That is the point, to point out the scale of the problem which most men don't realise (I think this is fair enough). Now there are people highlighting it.

    It sickens me how many of them have mentioned that have learned to be cautious about there actions because they don't want some random error grabbing a feel.

    It is not just women either (though they tend to be the more common victims) and not male attackers I have seen mentioned. The point of it is to ensure that those who are attacked know that they have sympathy and feel ok coming forward-even if many will assume they are lying (see plenty of this thread).


  • #256
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭professore


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Wibbs wrote: »
    *sound of crickets*

    "Come up with a solution to a huge, widespread and commonplace problem and explain it to me in a very clear and concise way"

    About 5 Minutes pass

    "As I thought, no answers forthcoming, it's all just complaining

    psh :mad:"

    Telling people when it happens and not alienating all men by blaming them would be a start.


  • #257
    neonsofa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    professore wrote: »
    Both I guess. It's not like there is no awareness of sexual assault against women, the media talks about it all the time.

    Absolutely. But in the case of the me too hashtag, and your previous post, who is it you want them to have told? Everybody on Twitter? Or their family? Or..?
    And if the media always talks about it then why do you want them to tell said people? Not being smart, genuinely not understnding what you meant by your post, sorry.


  • #258
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    professore wrote: »
    Telling people when it happens and not alienating all men by blaming them would be a start.

    So while telling you about being assaulted, women should be careful not to hurt your feelings by making any kind of remark that could be interpreted as laying blame on all men?

    That's not self-centred and demanding at all.


  • #259
    anewme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,146 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Macmillan150 wrote: »
    What should men do about it?

    This thread should be full of people saying this is terrible behaviour and I'm so sorry these things happened to you. But it's not, it's full of men going on the attack, fathers being deluded that this stuff doesn't happen to their daughters, what aboutisms saying men get attacked ( do women should to?). Or men saying women should speak out or not speak out without proof. Anything and everything instead of " this is not what I want society to be".

    Same as yesterday.

    Instead of questioning the thinking on the paragraph below, the majority of posters attacked the people questioning it. Young teenagers know what they can get from sex??

    Don't wonder why your teenager does not tell you about the perves. She thought she might get something out of it.

    These are the exact words used:

    Most girls (and I mean girls) know (from practical experience or education) what sex is by early teens. Modern society doesn't give a lot of space to ignore it unless you're living in the Arctic. They also know what they can get from sex. Movies, music, etc all encourage women/girls to use their physical appearance to influence men. And Honestly, most girls start manipulating adult male friends around them from a relatively young age. All it takes is a sister for any man to see the effects of that. Our society actively encourages women to see themselves as special, and that, well, sex sells.


  • #260
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭professore


    professore wrote: »
    anewme wrote: »
    When you have men believing that young girls (teenagers) from a very young age set out to manipulate adult men using sex, this kind of behaviour is condoned instead of being stamped out.

    You are conflating two unrelated things. SOME women use sex to manipulate men, just as SOME men are perverts. Maybe you don't know it happens because your father, son or husband wouldn't be believed if they told you?
    As a teen back in the 80s among other things I've seen a girl pull her skirt up to her panties and saying "do you like what you see sir?" in front of a clearly embarrassed older male teacher because she hadn't done her homework.


  • #261
    sonic85
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,412 ✭✭✭sonic85


    B0jangles wrote: »
    "Come up with a solution to a huge, widespread and commonplace problem and explain it to me in a very clear and concise way"

    About 5 Minutes pass

    "As I thought, no answers forthcoming, it's all just complaining

    psh :mad:"


    With all due respect WTF are you on about? I've read through this whole thread and you know all I've taken from it? Most women get harassed or assaulted but tell no one. They don't tell anyone because they think they won't be believed or what's the point. How will anything change? All men are responsible - men are bad mmmmmkay. That's it.

    Where are the solutions? Throw a few out to me there you must have some suggestions. Honestly I'm actually interested I'm not taking the pi$$.


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  • #262
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,292 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Please point out where I talked any poster's experiences down. Once will do, or stop lying about what I've said or haven't said.
    B0jangles wrote: »
    "Come up with a solution to a huge, widespread and commonplace problem and explain it to me in a very clear and concise way"

    About 5 Minutes pass

    "As I thought, no answers forthcoming, it's all just complaining

    psh :mad:"
    Your answer boils down to listen and believe women and shame men who act in a dodgy manner. I'd add tell men in the first place.

    Though I would not automatically believe a woman. Just like I'd not automatically believe a man. I don't judge by gender and I'd want more than an accusation. On more than a few occasions on nights out I have witnessed one woman accusing a guy in a group of being creepy and it spread like a virus among most of the other women there(usually increasing in intensity) so the guy yep defo a creep. And the men(who they looked to) got the guy to leave. In the majority of cases the "creep" didn't do a damn thing, certainly didn't get handsie. So no I don't automatically believe, it depends entirely on the individual. Some women(and men) I'd automatically believe, while others I'd generally assume a wary approach as reality and their imaginings can be hard to untwist.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #263
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭professore


    B0jangles wrote: »
    professore wrote: »
    Telling people when it happens and not alienating all men by blaming them would be a start.

    So while telling you about being assaulted, women should be careful not to hurt your feelings by making any kind of remark that could be interpreted as laying blame on all men?

    That's not self-centred and demanding at all.

    What???? The alienating all men thing is directed at the radfems, not at a specific loved one telling me something traumatic. Wow you really hate men if you think we are that insensitive.


  • #264
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    professore wrote: »
    What???? The alienating all men thing is directed at the radfems, not at a specific loved one telling me something traumatic. Wow you really hate men if you think we are that insensitive.
    Telling people when it happens and not alienating all men by blaming them would be a start.

    I must have missed the part of this sentence that made it clear you were talking about your loved ones at the start and radfems at the end.


  • #265
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭professore


    B0jangles wrote: »
    professore wrote: »
    What???? The alienating all men thing is directed at the radfems, not at a specific loved one telling me something traumatic. Wow you really hate men if you think we are that insensitive.
    Telling people when it happens and not alienating all men by blaming them would be a start.

    I must have missed the part of this sentence that made it clear you were talking about your loved ones at the start and radfems at the end.

    I would have thought simple reasoning would have made it obvious. Clearly I was wrong.


  • #266
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,292 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Why don't we all tell the men in our lives?

    Because. They. Don't. Listen.
    Get better men in your life.
    Like right now, you're switching back to your well-worn, (so very well-worn) stance that Modern Society says All Women are Victims All the Time, (and it's the media's fault).
    Actually I blame third wave feminism. Secondly point out where the statement; women are always victims and it's always men's fault doesn't apply. Even in your posts. Women are victims of men. No point telling men in your lives, because either they don't listen, or go on the attack, or don't shame other men enough. Yep, still our fault. It's well worn for a reason, because it fits like a glove.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #267
    anewme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,146 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    professore wrote: »
    professore wrote: »

    You are conflating two unrelated things. SOME women use sex to manipulate men, just as SOME men are perverts. Maybe you don't know it happens because your father, son or husband wouldn't be believed if they told you?
    As a teen back in the 80s among other things I've seen a girl pull her skirt up to her panties and saying "do you like what you see sir?" in front of a clearly embarrassed older male teacher because she hadn't done her homework.

    Girls are not women.

    Again if you reflect it back to the person making the post, he used the words "most girls, and I mean girls". Not some, most.

    Not many people objected to this way of thinking, so either they agreed, or did not care.

    I believe stopping this attitude and objecting to it when it is raised will go a long way to improving things.


  • #268
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭professore


    Why associate with men that don't listen or believe you? I don't associate with people of both genders that are like that, and there are plenty of each.


  • #269
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Your answer boils down to listen and believe women and shame men who act in a dodgy manner. I'd add tell men in the first place.

    Though I would not automatically believe a woman. Just like I'd not automatically believe a man. I don't judge by gender and I'd want more than an accusation. On more than a few occasions on nights out I have witnessed one woman accusing a guy in a group of being creepy and it spread like a virus among most of the other women there(usually increasing in intensity) so the guy yep defo a creep. And the men(who they looked to) got the guy to leave. In the majority of cases the "creep" didn't do a damn thing, certainly didn't get handsie. So no I don't automatically believe, it depends entirely on the individual. Some women(and men) I'd automatically believe, while others I'd generally assume a wary approach as reality and their imaginings can be hard to untwist.

    Hang on, the post you quote was a direct response to a completely different post of yours (one where you got rather hilariously managed to become impatient that there wasn't a complete answer to a complex question provided within seven minutes), so I don't understand why you are taking it as a response to anything else.


  • #270
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    kylith wrote:
    The single biggest threat to women is men

    Let's use this argument to highlight something else...

    The biggest threat to Europe is Muslims.

    The biggest threat to American civilians are blacks

    Is that ok to say?


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  • #271
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭professore


    anewme wrote: »
    professore wrote: »
    professore wrote: »

    You are conflating two unrelated things. SOME women use sex to manipulate men, just as SOME men are perverts. Maybe you don't know it happens because your father, son or husband wouldn't be believed if they told you?
    As a teen back in the 80s among other things I've seen a girl pull her skirt up to her panties and saying "do you like what you see sir?" in front of a clearly embarrassed older male teacher because she hadn't done her homework.

    Girls are not women.

    Again if you reflect it back to the person making the post, he used the words "most girls, and I mean girls". Not some, most.

    Not many people objected to this way of thinking, so either they agreed, or did not care.

    I believe stopping this attitude and objecting to it when it is raised will go a long way to improving things.

    I do object to it, as I object to all generalisations, unless supported by mountains of hard data.


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