The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

thee glitz · 18-10-2017 09:30PM

kylith wrote: »

It is simply the fact that, in Ireland in the 21st century, a woman who is pregnant as a result of rape and procures an abortion LEGALLY CAN be sent to jail for longer than the person who raped her. That is a despicable thing.

It's not true though.

January · 18-10-2017 09:32PM

thee glitz wrote: »

It's not true though.

Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't or cant happen.

uptherebels · 18-10-2017 09:34PM

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Over the last month we have seen 3 pro life public meetings get canceled due to pressure & threats,

you have a source for those threats?

freshpopcorn · 18-10-2017 09:37PM

I think wording will play a big part in this and that repealing with out knowing what exactly the 8th will be replaced with won't help the repeal campaign.

What will happen if the repeal campaign fails?
If it's by a good few percent will people be saying it's a land slide No similar to people saying it was a landslide Yes with the marriage referendum?

thee glitz · 18-10-2017 09:37PM

January wrote: »

Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't or cant happen.

It's the law that says it can't happen.

January · 18-10-2017 09:39PM

uptherebels wrote: »

you have a source for those threats?

No they don't.

Meanwhile there's proof from captain Americas in blanchardstown that the anti choice movement tried to get a prochoice meeting cancelled by saying they would picket outside and boycott the restaurant if it went ahead. A meeting a week later in Douglas and kaldi Ashtown was cancelled because of similar claims, ditto a community centre in Tallaght and another out in the Dublin bay north area.

But it's the pro choice side playing dirty and being shrill.

Zubeneschamali · 18-10-2017 09:46PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

What will happen if the repeal campaign fails?

We go again in 10 years when more 8th fans are dead.

thee glitz · 18-10-2017 09:50PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I think wording will play a big part in this and that repealing with out knowing what exactly the 8th will be replaced with won't help the repeal campaign.

Very true. I think many people would vote to repeal the 8th if it meant allowing abortion is limited cases only, likely a majority in the case of FFA.

Most pro abortion rights supporters seem to fail to realise this, or are unwilling to compomise on their wants to facilitate it.

NuMarvel · 18-10-2017 09:51PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I think wording will play a big part in this and that repealing with out knowing what exactly the 8th will be replaced with won't help the repeal campaign.

It's standard practice for governments to publish draft legislation when proposing a referendum. We saw that with both the Children's referendum and the marriage equality referendum, so I can't see why that wouldn't be the case here.

freshpopcorn · 18-10-2017 09:53PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

We go again in 10 years when more 8th fans are dead.

You never know how the world will be in 10 years!

Sheeps · 18-10-2017 09:57PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

They wanted to imprison a pregnant girl and the father of her child even though neither of them appeared to have broken any laws. Those are not the opinions of rational people.

What was the pregnant woman's name?

January · 18-10-2017 10:07PM

Sheeps wrote: »

What was the pregnant woman's name?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms_Y

And only recently another young girl was held against her will in a mental health facility after first being led to believe she was being granted an abortion but then being told she wasn't suicidal enough.

These are well publicised cases. Don't tell me you don't know about them.

NuMarvel · 18-10-2017 10:11PM

Sheeps wrote: »

What was the pregnant woman's name?

I take it from captbarncales' post that he and the people he was talking to were speaking hypothetically.

eviltwin · 18-10-2017 10:17PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I think wording will play a big part in this and that repealing with out knowing what exactly the 8th will be replaced with won't help the repeal campaign.

What will happen if the repeal campaign fails?
If it's by a good few percent will people be saying it's a land slide No similar to people saying it was a landslide Yes with the marriage referendum?

Why does it needs to be replaced by anything? I agree though it's pointless have repeated threads on abortion and the referendum when we don't as yet know what we are being asked to vote on.

freshpopcorn · 18-10-2017 10:21PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Why does it needs to be replaced by anything? I agree though it's pointless have repeated threads on abortion and the referendum when we don't as yet know what we are being asked to vote on.

Well from speaking to people/etc some people would happy voting to allow abortion in the cases of FFA for example and they'd like to be able to vote on the day for this. If the vote was just to repeal/remove the 8th the government could legislate to allow abortions in cases that they wouldn't feel comfortable with. So, they'd probably end up voting no!
Does that make sense?

thee glitz · 18-10-2017 10:30PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Why does it needs to be replaced by anything? I agree though it's pointless have repeated threads on abortion and the referendum when we don't as yet know what we are being asked to vote on.

You get the government and referendums you deserve.

If you support abortion rights in limited circumstances, tell your TD's, make it known. If you acknowledge the right to life of the unborn absolutely, do the same. The same again if you seek a relaxed abortion regime but aren't too concerned about those in special circumstances.

I believe the popular opinion lies in the middle, who would seek reassurance in the case of the 8th being repealed. There's been little to no discussion of this.

NuMarvel · 18-10-2017 10:34PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Well from speaking to people/etc some people would happy voting to allow abortion in the cases of FFA for example and they'd like to be able to vote on the day for this. If the vote was just to repeal/remove the 8th the government could legislate to allow abortions in cases that they wouldn't feel comfortable with. So, they'd probably end up voting no!
Does that make sense?

I don't think people realise that a constitution is not an appropriate place to deal with complex clinical and moral issues. Look at what the 8th has done; it's 43 pretty straightforward words, and we've had 4 subsequent referendums, with at least one more on the way. Saying we should put something as complicated as FFA in there is basically saying please sir, lets have more referendums.

Issues like this are more appropriately dealt with by parliaments and politicians. And while I can understand why people might be uncomfortable with that, they have to appreciate the alternative is worse. And besides, it's not as if people are completely without a voice. If a government legislates in a way people aren't happy with, they can be voted out and replaced.

freshpopcorn · 18-10-2017 10:43PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

I don't think people realise that a constitution is not an appropriate place to deal with complex clinical and moral issues. Look at what the 8th has done; it's 43 pretty straightforward words, and we've had 4 subsequent referendums, with at least one more on the way. Saying we should put something as complicated as FFA in there is basically saying please sir, lets have more referendums.

Issues like this are more appropriately dealt with by parliaments and politicians. And while I can understand why people might be uncomfortable with that, they have to appreciate the alternative is worse. And besides, it's not as if people are completely without a voice. If a government legislates in a way people aren't happy with, they can be voted out and replaced.

Well in my opinion if the referendum is simply removing the 8th amendment and allowing the government to legislate.It will be a major advantage for the keep the 8th side because they can simply say oh the government can legalese for abortion in all cases/etc.

Tigger · 18-10-2017 10:46PM

Tigger wrote: »

clearly crazy people

NuMarvel wrote: »

They wanted to imprison a pregnant girl and the father of her child even though neither of them appeared to have broken any laws. Those are not the opinions of rational people.

what part of clearly crazy did i not make clear?

NuMarvel · 18-10-2017 11:03PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Well in my opinion if the referendum is simply removing the 8th amendment and allowing the government to legislate.It will be a major advantage for the keep the 8th side because they can simply say oh the government can legalese for abortion in all cases/etc.

The pro-8th side are going to say all sorts of things, no matter what the referendum's about. That's not a good enough reason to keep it in the constitution. There is no good reason to keep abortion in the constitution.

As I said before, it's likely draft post-repeal legislation will be released before the referendum is held so people will know what will be the outcome of their vote. And I think most people will accept that it's unlikely a future government would drastically overhaul that. Especially when some of the people claiming otherwise don't have a great track record in being right in matters like these; eg Quinn or Mullen.

The Legend Of Kira · 18-10-2017 11:09PM

captbarnacles wrote: »

Had the first door to door campaigners this week from the save the 8th side and they were mostly pleasant, one walked off when I said I'd be voting to repeal and the other stayed to discuss. The discussion was mainly her trying to convince me abortions at 8 months plus happen all the time in England including for D babies. A man came over to join her after awhile. Both said they would imprison a suicidal girl if she wanted to go to England no matter how she became pregnant but they would send the offending father to jail forever as if that balanced it out?

Out of interest, what age demographic were the save the 8th canvassers ?

freshpopcorn · 18-10-2017 11:18PM

I think it will be interesting to see who'll come around my area campaigning for this referendum. I live about a mile outside a town and during the marriage we had nobody and in the local town Yes equality popped around with posters to the local shops one Saturday afternoon and knocked around a few estates the for a few hours. The No side campaigned outside mass and handed a few leaflets out in the town. It was disappointing over all.

captbarnacles · 19-10-2017 12:30AM

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Out of interest, what age demographic were the save the 8th canvassers ?

55+

I felt a bit sorry for them as they said they were being told to f**k off at most doors.

captbarnacles · 19-10-2017 12:35AM

I meant to ask them (genuinely) if after the referendum they'd be campaigning for sex education and access to cheap affordable contraception including MAP for everyone. They really seemed to hate abortion so those are two practical ways of ensuring less of them.

Strazdas · 19-10-2017 12:36AM

It's extraordinary that Ireland is tying itself up in knots in 2017 trying to legislate for this.

It's making us look like the most dysfunctional country in Europe by some distance. Main problem is that political parties seem petrified of a voter backlash if they step out of line.

Dotsie~tmp · 19-10-2017 12:37AM

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/poll

Any opinions on how the Ref might play out? Looks like a difficult one for repeal if question is overly liberal.

Dotsie~tmp · 19-10-2017 12:39AM

Strazdas wrote: »

It's extraordinary that Ireland is tying itself up in knots in 2017 trying to legislate for this.

It's making us look like the most dysfunctional country in Europe by some distance. Main problem is that political parties seem petrified of a voter backlash if they step out of line.

Your problem is with democracy then. Politicians are supposed to represent their constituents.

mahamageehad · 19-10-2017 12:40AM

So the committee voted tonight 15 to 5 (3 nos and 2 abstained) to not keep the 8th in it's current form. It's not repeal, but it is an acknowledgement that the status quo is no longer acceptable. The next stage is that 6 options on what to do next - premutations of repeal, replace etc. will be investigated.

Tigger · 19-10-2017 12:41AM

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/poll

Any opinions on how the Ref might play out? Looks like a difficult one for repeal if question is overly liberal.

should be 13 weeks

Tigger · 19-10-2017 12:43AM

mahamageehad wrote: »

So the committee voted tonight 15 to 5 (3 nos and 2 abstained) to not keep the 8th in it's current form. It's not repeal, but it is an acknowledgement that the status quo is no longer acceptable. The next stage is that 6 options on what to do next - premutations of repeal, replace etc. will be investigated.

permutations are what id like to dscuss
but theres a lot of allthe repeal going on
fcuk it i dont vote sobwho cares
im kinda nervous when i take tests

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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