The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

freshpopcorn · 15-10-2017 08:34PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

People forget that the 8th was only passed by a margin of 2 to 1 even though this was 1983, when the catholic church's influence was still at its height and only 4 years after the mass hysteria of the pope's visit.

At that time, the only experience most people had of abortion was their local priest telling them how evil it was.

In Dublin it was only passed by the narrowest of margins, 51% to 49%.

What would have me concerned would be the result of the marriage referendum and it passing by just over 12%. If it passed by 20% or so I'd say it pass no problem but I can see lots of rural constituencies going No and it will take the cities/commuter counties to pass it.
Unless the keep campaign runs a terrible campaign, I wouldn't be counting on it passing just yet.

posturingpat · 15-10-2017 08:50PM

Any word if/when the referendum goes ahead? Going to have to buy myself a holy bible.

BabyCheeses · 15-10-2017 09:50PM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

It seems you and your ilk have learned to sum of sweet **** all from both Trump winning the Presidency and the Brexit vote.

If you, and the Pro-Choice crowd, continue insulting those who disagree with you, and more importantly those on the fence, you are cast iron-guaranteeing to lose any referendum on this topic.

Remember folks, don't call someone a gombeen or your a terrible person who will cause a vote to be lost but saying that maybe someone should have been aborted is fine.

eviltwin · 15-10-2017 09:54PM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

It seems you and your ilk have learned to sum of sweet **** all from both Trump winning the Presidency and the Brexit vote.

If you, and the Pro-Choice crowd, continue insulting those who disagree with you, and more importantly those on the fence, you are cast iron-guaranteeing to lose any referendum on this topic.

Someone so immature who will choose how to vote on the basis of who hurts their feelings the most doesn't deserve a vote.

Simi · 15-10-2017 10:08PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

What would have me concerned would be the result of the marriage referendum and it passing by just over 12%. If it passed by 20% or so I'd say it pass no problem but I can see lots of rural constituencies going No and it will take the cities/commuter counties to pass it.
Unless the keep campaign runs a terrible campaign, I wouldn't be counting on it passing just yet.

The margin was 24.14% not 12%. I would expect a repeal vote to carry in Dublin and the commuter belt, but I'd expect a no in most other counties tbh.

I'd still expect it to still be a yes overall, but by a slimmer margin than the marriage equality referendum.

posturingpat · 15-10-2017 10:14PM

So which is yes and which is no?
Yes Baby Killers
No Bible bashers

Is that correct?

freshpopcorn · 15-10-2017 10:18PM

Simi wrote: »

The margin was 24.14% not 12%. I would expect a repeal vote to carry in Dublin and the commuter belt, but I'd expect a no in most other counties tbh.

I'd still expect it to still be a yes overall, but by a slimmer margin than the marriage equality referendum.

Can I just ask how did you calculate that?
Yes was 62% and No was 38%!
Sorry about my error!

backspin. · 15-10-2017 11:04PM

Repeal the 8th types seem to be the same people who spout nonsense about the 'patriarchy', 'white privilege' etc. Its hard to support those people.

Martina1991 · 15-10-2017 11:08PM

backspin. wrote:

Repeal the 8th types seem to be the same people who spout nonsense about the 'patriarchy', 'white privilege' etc. Its hard to support those people.

It's not about supporting "Those people ". It's about giving women the right to choose what happens to their bodies.

uptherebels · 15-10-2017 11:11PM

backspin. wrote: »

Repeal the 8th types seem to be the same people who spout nonsense about the 'patriarchy', 'white privilege' etc. Its hard to support those people.

typical ill informed vitriol from the anti choicers, hard to support such people:rolleyes:

kylith · 15-10-2017 11:18PM

backspin. wrote: »

Repeal the 8th types seem to be the same people who spout nonsense about the 'patriarchy', 'white privilege' etc. Its hard to support those people.

How about just supporting women's rights instead?

eviltwin · 15-10-2017 11:22PM

backspin. wrote: »

Repeal the 8th types seem to be the same people who spout nonsense about the 'patriarchy', 'white privilege' etc. Its hard to support those people.

It's not the fcukin X Factor, it's not about which side impresses you the most. It's about whether you agree with the wording of the proposed amendment. Read it, decide and vote accordingly.

Tigger · 15-10-2017 11:24PM

January wrote: »

Contraception is not 100% effective.

People who are married cannot give their offspring up for adoption unless they declare themselves unfit to parent, this can affect offspring already being raised or future offspring.

if people who are married with kids are going to have abortions because they cant give away tgeir babies they shouldnt have futire offspring

Geuze · 15-10-2017 11:32PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

It's about giving women the right to choose what happens to their bodies.

Do we all have the right to do what we like with our bodies?

Should we?

If I walk into the hospital and ask for my leg to be cut off, should that be done?

eviltwin · 15-10-2017 11:36PM

Geuze wrote: »

Do we all have the right to do what we like with our bodies?

Should we?

If I walk into the hospital and ask for my leg to be cut off, should that be done?

Does most of the developed world and organisations like Amnesty and the WHO advocate for people who want their limbs removed?

If you decide to cut your own leg off are you facing a criminal conviction and a potential 14 yr prison sentence?

eviltwin · 15-10-2017 11:46PM

backspin. wrote: »

I haven't looked into it and don't know which way i'll vote or if i'll vote at all. But if i see some blue haired harridan in the run up to the vote gassing about the patriarchy it could influence my decision. That's all i'm saying.

Why? All that stuff is just a distraction, it shouldn't make a difference what any interest says or thinks, just make up your own mind

Martina1991 · 15-10-2017 11:47PM

Geuze wrote:

Do we all have the right to do what we like with our bodies?

Geuze wrote:

If I walk into the hospital and ask for my leg to be cut off, should that be done?

Yes we do.
Ridiculous analogy. But I'm sure if you wanted to cut off your leg you would find a way to do it.

If a girl / women truly wants/needs to go ahead with an abortion she WILL go abroad and have one.

backspin. · 15-10-2017 11:56PM

I agree with euthanasia and the death penalty. Abortion is a tricky one but on balance i would favour the right to choose.

SafeSurfer · 16-10-2017 12:14AM

eviltwin wrote: »

Geuze wrote: »

Do we all have the right to do what we like with our bodies?

Should we?

If I walk into the hospital and ask for my leg to be cut off, should that be done?

Does most of the developed world and organisations like Amnesty and the WHO advocate for people who want their limbs removed?

If you decide to cut your own leg off are you facing a criminal conviction and a potential 14 yr prison sentence?

Can you provide an example of anyone imprisoned in the Republic of Ireland for procuring an abortion this millennium
If the pro choice side want the pro life side to stop mentioning full term abortions because "they just don't happen", the pro choice side should stop arguing the 14 years imprisonment argument because similarly it just doesn't happen.

eviltwin · 16-10-2017 12:19AM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Can you provide an example of anyone imprisoned in the Republic of Ireland for procuring an abortion this millennium
If the pro choice side want the pro life side to stop mentioning full term abortions because "they just don't happen", the pro choice side should stop arguing the 14 years imprisonment argument because similarly it just doesn't happen.

The 14 yrs is on the statute books since POLPA. Just because it hasn't been enforced doesn't mean it won't scare some vulnerable woman who has no means to travel.

Crea · 16-10-2017 01:24AM

eviltwin wrote: »

The 14 yrs is on the statute books since POLPA. Just because it hasn't been enforced doesn't mean it won't scare some vulnerable woman who has no means to travel.

With the increased use of the abortion pill it would definitely deter women from seeking medical advice in case of complications. It certainly would deter me.

Crea · 16-10-2017 01:30AM

Tigger wrote: »

if people who are married with kids are going to have abortions because they cant give away tgeir babies they shouldnt have futire offspring

If only there was no such thing as an unplanned pregnancy. If only contraception didn't fail. If only women didn't become super fertile coming up to the menopause.
Next your going to say married people shouldn't have sex which is my 13 year olds recommendation for unplanned pregnancy.

SafeSurfer · 16-10-2017 01:46AM

eviltwin wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Can you provide an example of anyone imprisoned in the Republic of Ireland for procuring an abortion this millennium
If the pro choice side want the pro life side to stop mentioning full term abortions because "they just don't happen", the pro choice side should stop arguing the 14 years imprisonment argument because similarly it just doesn't happen.

The 14 yrs is on the statute books since POLPA. Just because it hasn't been enforced doesn't mean it won't scare some vulnerable woman who has no means to travel.

Scaremongering, insulting the intelligence of women, these red herrings just serve to undermine your argument. The fact is more women have been jailed in England for abortion offences than in Ireland, despite the 8th amendment.

SafeSurfer · 16-10-2017 01:56AM

Crea wrote: »

Tigger wrote: »

if people who are married with kids are going to have abortions because they cant give away tgeir babies they shouldnt have futire offspring

If only there was no such thing as an unplanned pregnancy. If only contraception didn't fail. If only women didn't become super fertile coming up to the menopause.
Next your going to say married people shouldn't have sex which is my 13 year olds recommendation for unplanned pregnancy.

Lots of unplanned pregnancies result in a new loved, valued human being.
Unplanned does not equal unwanted. We should not seek to consign human life to the level of the disposable society. Billions of humans have been unplanned but were born, been loved and loved others. If every unplanned baby was killed we would live in a pretty empty, predictable, sanitised world.

Crea · 16-10-2017 02:03AM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Lots of unplanned pregnancies result in a new loved, valued human being.
Unplanned does not equal unwanted. We should not seek to consign human life to the level of the disposable society. Billions of humans have been unplanned but were born, been loved and loved others. If every unplanned baby was killed we would live in a pretty empty, predictable, sanitised world.

True but not all babies are wanted or not all pregnancies are happy for a variety of reasons. Sometimes it's a genuine crisis for the pregnant woman. It's not up to me to judge why that is.

RayM · 16-10-2017 02:47AM

I wonder how people who favour the retention of the 8th Amendment would react if a close family member desperately wanted to have an abortion, and needed their help with the expense and practicalities of travelling (even something simple, like a lift to the airport). I mean, if their mind is absolutely 100% made up and no attempts at persuasion will change it (if anything, it's causing them more distress). Would you tell them that you're morally opposed to what they're doing and therefore cannot in any way facilitate their abortion? Or would you reluctantly accept that it's not about you and give them whatever help they've asked for? Your (honest) answer to this question should dictate how you vote.

RobertKK · 16-10-2017 04:05AM

RayM wrote: »

I wonder how people who favour the retention of the 8th Amendment would react if a close family member desperately wanted to have an abortion, and needed their help with the expense and practicalities of travelling (even something simple, like a lift to the airport). I mean, if their mind is absolutely 100% made up and no attempts at persuasion will change it (if anything, it's causing them more distress). Would you tell them that you're morally opposed to what they're doing and therefore cannot in any way facilitate their abortion? Or would you reluctantly accept that it's not about you and give them whatever help they've asked for? Your (honest) answer to this question should dictate how you vote.

I wouldn't use MY money to finance something I disagree with. That I have my own conscience to live with, and it is not all about their need, but my needs too.

frag420 · 16-10-2017 07:01AM

RobertKK wrote: »

and it is not all about their need, but my needs too.

Awesome so we are getting somewhere, you realise that your needs are more important than the other persons and you are making a choice based on what's best for you!

Now surely you should afford this right to women too no!?

January · 16-10-2017 07:55AM

Tigger wrote: »

if people who are married with kids are going to have abortions because they cant give away tgeir babies they shouldnt have futire offspring

No they're having abortions because they can't afford to raise another child or because another pregnancy is too dangerous to go ahead with or because they have a child with complex special needs already and feel that bringing another child into the world at this time isn't the right thing to do.

Maybe their finances change, maybe their circumstances change. They shouldn't be denied the right to have another child in the future just because they had an abortion at a time that they felt they needed to.

It's not about wanting to give babies away it's that the anti choice crowd say 'what about adoption' but adoption is not always a solution.

RobertKK · 16-10-2017 08:02AM

frag420 wrote: »

Awesome so we are getting somewhere, you realise that your needs are more important than the other persons and you are making a choice based on what's best for you!

Now surely you should afford this right to women too no!?

You are asking someone to go against their own conscience, to support something that is not seen as a choice, to view what someone views as a wrong to be viewed as a right.

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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