Man jailed for collecting dead mother's pension

Dr Brown · 13-10-2017 04:24PM

Its hard to get worked up about this sort of crime when bankers who robbed the country of billions of euro will never spend a day in prison.

13-10-2017 04:31PM

partyguinness wrote: »

Following on from that logic- no jail for economic crimes that do not exceed the cost of the prison sentence?

I don't think I've ever heard of economic crimes, before. It's an interesting term in light of our recent economic history, but not one that legislators are likely to dwell on.

In any case (I digress), it isn't that financial crimes should be penalised purely in respect of the magnitude of the deception or fraud that is involved. But, since resources are limited, then until the Great Revolution, the cost of imprisonment ought to be, and is, a factor for consideration when imposing a prison term.

If the court threw €600,000 of the State's own resources at this man, I'm sure some posters on boards.ie would feel a warm, glowing feeling for a minute.

Maybe that's just the feeling of piss running down one's leg, but either way, the satisfaction would be short-lived.

wakka12 · 13-10-2017 04:48PM

Jail time seems harsh to me. I dont see how fines and or community service wouldnt be better than this. Hes not dangerous..doesnt need to be taken off the street like.

B.A._Baracus · 13-10-2017 04:50PM

partyguinness wrote: »

I am not entirely sure what you are saying I won't agree with but yes social welfare fraud happens all the time and will continue as long as people can get away with it. But my point is that we as a society should not just turn a blind eye and accept it as part of everyday life. Yes it goes on all the time but it should be rightly punished.

It's called corruption.

I get what you are saying. It's just... Who cares. You'll get what I mean as you read on because well this guy played the game, he ran the risk, he got caught and now has to pay the penalty. He brought it on himself so whatever right? Who cares.

Also, hey, it's tax season at the end of the month. So many businesses will be fiddling their taxes. Also fraud.
Then there are other cons.. Bumped into a friend who I had not seen for years and turns out he was in Brazil for a couple of months prior and had his friend collect the dole for him (shortly before photo social card came in) and well.... As ace ventura said "alrighty-then"

Sure those dodgy openboxes were popular up to a few months ago (free sky TV) I didn't hear people complain about getting free sky tv?
The newest planet of the apes hit the net during the week. Sure lots of people are gonna watch that over the weekend for free... So Alrighty-then

Ah I could go on. I know there is a big difference between downloading a movie and defrauding the state (and everything in between) but when you look at what people do, whatever small or big, I just don't care.

Can't be too honest in this world. A bold thing to say but it's certainly not a naive thing to say.

... Alright then :pac:

partyguinness · 13-10-2017 04:54PM

Are Am Eye wrote: »

Just looking at the five stages of grief (Elizabeth kügler-Ross, On Death and Dying, 1969) it seems that Mr. Bobey just got stuck at step 1. and was unable to make progress with the grieving process.

1. Denial.
2. Anger.
3. Bargaining.
4. Depression.
5. Acceptance.

In the Partyguinness 'Book of Life' this falls under the chapter headed 'Greedy Conniving Shameless Bastard'.

partyguinness · 13-10-2017 05:01PM

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

I get what you are saying. It's just... Who cares. You'll get what I mean as you read on because well this guy played the game, he ran the risk, he got caught and now has to pay the penalty. He brought it on himself so whatever right? Who cares.

Also, hey, it's tax season at the end of the month. So many businesses will be fiddling their taxes. Also fraud.
Then there are other cons.. Bumped into a friend who I had not seen for years and turns out he was in Brazil for a couple of months prior and had his friend collect the dole for him (shortly before photo social card came in) and well.... As ace ventura said "alrighty-then"

Sure those dodgy openboxes were popular up to a few months ago (free sky TV) I didn't hear people complain about getting free sky tv?
The newest planet of the apes hit the net during the week. Sure lots of people are gonna watch that over the weekend for free... So Alrighty-then

Ah I could go on. I know there is a big difference between downloading a movie and defrauding the state (and everything in between) but when you look at what people do, whatever small or big, I just don't care.

Can't be too honest in this world. A bold thing to say but it's certainly not a naive thing to say.

... Alright then :pac:

That's actually the nub of my issue: - People saying 'who cares'.

Has the country not learned anything. So we still accept this type of thing. Acknowledging that is goes on should not equate to acceptance.

He didn't play any game. He fraudulently claimed his mother's pension over 16 years- not a few cash in hand jobs here and there.

Nobody cared about Charlie Haughey, Michael Lowery, Ray Burke etc etc sure are long as the rest of the country was not bothered then they acted with impunity- your generation may I add.

People getting indignant about bankers but this is no different- it is corruption from the very top to the very bottom and....we just wave off like it's alright. What the hell is wrong with people.

When the hell is Irish society going to grow up.

partyguinness · 13-10-2017 05:07PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I don't think I've ever heard of economic crimes, before. It's an interesting term in light of our recent economic history, but not one that legislators are likely to dwell on.

In any case (I digress), it isn't that financial crimes should be penalised purely in respect of the magnitude of the deception or fraud that is involved. But, since resources are limited, then until the Great Revolution, the cost of imprisonment ought to be, and is, a factor for consideration when imposing a prison term.

If the court threw €600,000 of the State's own resources at this man, I'm sure some posters on boards.ie would feel a warm, glowing feeling for a minute.

Maybe that's just the feeling of piss running down one's leg, but either way, the satisfaction would be short-lived.

Economic crimes are basically financial crimes- fraud, embezzlement, money laundering.

I'm sure the judge took that into account. If it had gone on for say, 2-3 years then sure he would not be in jail. But 16 years was just stretching too far.

Seeing it in terms of monetary loss or gain is also wrong. If costs was purely a deciding factor then our prisons would be empty because prisons are not built on a sound economic model. They are not a business.

Are Am Eye · 13-10-2017 05:12PM

partyguinness wrote: »

In the Partyguinness 'Book of Life' this falls under the chapter headed 'Greedy Conniving Shameless Bastard'.

He is a very bad man.

fryup · 13-10-2017 05:20PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Sure she could hardly collect it herself.

i'm too lazy to read the whole in's and out's of this case...wouldn't his mother have to collect it in her local PO ??

how did he get around that? or was it paid straight into her account?

B.A._Baracus · 13-10-2017 05:20PM

partyguinness wrote: »

That's actually the nub of my issue: - People saying 'who cares'.

Has the country not learned anything. So we still accept this type of thing. Acknowledging that is goes on should not equate to acceptance.

He didn't play any game. He fraudulently claimed his mother's pension over 16 years- not a few cash in hand jobs here and there.

Nobody cared about Charlie Haughey, Michael Lowery, Ray Burke etc etc sure are long as the rest of the country was not bothered then they acted with impunity- your generation may I add.

People getting indignant about bankers but this is no different- it is corruption from the very top to the very bottom and....we just wave off like it's alright. What the hell is wrong with people.

When the hell is Irish society going to grow up.

My generation?
Curious. How old am I?
How could you have possibly gathered my generation from what I posted...

13-10-2017 05:21PM

partyguinness wrote: »

If costs was purely a deciding factor then our prisons would be empty because prisons are not built on a sound economic model. They are not a business.

Nobody is suggesting that the costs of imprisonment ought to be the sole factor taken into consideration by a court.

It ought to be a balancing exercise, weighing the benefits of incarceration with the costs.

One of Ireland's most eminent criminal lawyers, Tom O'Malley, has been articulating this for decades. The Whitaker Report, back in the 1980's, and more recently, the Law Reform Commission, have made similar protests about the widespread irrational reliance on imprisonment, after considering the costs.

The Oireachtas has responded to this by enacting various Community Service Order procedures, but the reaction by the judiciary has been mixed, with at least one judge even criticising other judges, particularly at District Court level, for their over-reliance on prisons.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 13-10-2017 05:22PM

I don't know if there;s any true correlation, but it seems to me that a crime relating to money gets you a far far stricter sentence than physically assaulting an average joe. Fraud, tax evasion, false claims seems etc, seem to get punished quite harshly. While I read díckhead down the road with 80 convictions, get another concurrent suspended sentence for beating up some poor fecker on a Saturday night.

If you are a powerful or important figure and commit fraud, tax evasion, etc, you're generally ok. I'm thinking of the developers and bankers who put us in a bit of a hole 10 years ago.

Are Am Eye · 13-10-2017 05:23PM

fryup wrote: »

i'm too lazy to read the whole in's and out's of this case...wouldn't his mother have to collect it in her local PO ??

how did he get around that? or was it paid straight into her account?

The main problem was that she was dead.

dotsman · 13-10-2017 06:16PM

Dr Brown wrote: »

Its hard to get worked up about this sort of crime when bankers who robbed the country of billions of euro will never spend a day in prison.

Except that never happened.

If you want to know why nobody got punished, why massive waste and incompetence still rule supreme in Banking and politics today and why history will repeat itself, maybe you should look at yourself and those like you. It's been 10 years and you haven't bothered to move off the tabloid headlines of an extremely complex issue.

Dr Brown · 13-10-2017 08:36PM

dotsman wrote: »

Except that never happened.

If you want to know why nobody got punished, why massive waste and incompetence still rule supreme in Banking and politics today and why history will repeat itself, maybe you should look at yourself and those like you. It's been 10 years and you haven't bothered to move off the tabloid headlines of an extremely complex issue.

The bankers running anglo committed outright fraud but they got away with it because of a botched prosecution.

I wish the state would put the same effort into prosecuting white collar criminals as they do for welfare fraudsters.

Boscoirl · 13-10-2017 08:45PM

fryup wrote: »

i'm too lazy to read the whole in's and out's of this case...wouldn't his mother have to collect it in her local PO ??

how did he get around that? or was it paid straight into her account?

He dressed up like Mrs Doubtfire every week

fryup · 13-10-2017 09:22PM

^^^^^^^^^

seriously tho, how did he do it?

B.A._Baracus · 13-10-2017 09:25PM

fryup wrote: »

^^^^^^^^^

seriously tho, how did he do it?

Well in the movie Robin Williams had his brother do him up to look like Mrs Doubtfire.
Honestly tho I fail to see how wanting to know that brings anything to to thread.

:pac:

Spanish Eyes · 13-10-2017 09:35PM

He won't get an ESTA. Terrible times.

dotsman · 13-10-2017 10:25PM

Dr Brown wrote: »

The bankers running anglo committed outright fraud but they got away with it because of a botched prosecution.

I wish the state would put the same effort into prosecuting white collar criminals as they do for welfare fraudsters.

The bankers running Anglo did not "rob" billions. They lost billions due to incompetence, but they didn't "rob" billions.

And the government spent millions of euros and years of investigation to try and prosecute them.

Capt'n Midnight · 13-10-2017 10:56PM

dotsman wrote: »

The bankers running Anglo did not "rob" billions. They lost billions due to incompetence, but they didn't "rob" billions.

And the government spent millions of euros and years of investigation to try and prosecute them.

Where they dishonest about the financial state of the bank ?

Where they financially better off as a result ?

Was there any excess mortality as a result of diverting funds from the HSE or winter fuel allowances etc ?

dotsman · 13-10-2017 11:03PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Where they dishonest about the financial state of the bank ?

Who is "they"? Certainly, there was a few people involved in telling porkies.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Where they financially better off as a result ?

Not that I am aware - minor, if any, financial benefit, I'd imagine. Certainly nothing in the grand scheme of things and nothing like "billions".

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Was there any excess mortality as a result of diverting funds from the HSE or winter fuel allowances etc ?

Nope.

Seriously - "excess mortality"??? What a great phrase

.

But seriously, I have no idea where you are getting the "diverting funds" from. The funding for the HSE and social welfare payments have absolutely sweet FA to do with Anglo.

Purple Mountain · 13-10-2017 11:04PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

He won't get an ESTA. Terrible times.

A schwhat?!!

Shemale · 13-10-2017 11:15PM

Jon_459 wrote: »

Headline on RTE News website today:

Man jailed for collecting dead mother's pension for 16 years

Jaysus - 16 years in jail - that's harsh I thought - then I read it and saw he was sentenced to 18 months. He'd been collecting the pension for 16 years!

It's worse that he was able to do it.

Really doesn't say much for the Government, surely it would be logical the Department of Births, Deaths and Marriages would let the Department of Social Protection that a citizen has passed away and their record should be closed.

Shemale · 13-10-2017 11:28PM

wakka12 wrote: »

Jail time seems harsh to me. I dont see how fines and or community service wouldnt be better than this. Hes not dangerous..doesnt need to be taken off the street like.

It might have been his offer with the help of this daughter to pay back €50, which would mean he would have been paying until he was 124 and perhaps the daughter would collect his pension until his debt was cleared.:cool:

"Today Judge Patricia Ryan refused an offer by Bobey to repay €50 a week after hearing it would take more than 60 years to repay at that rate."

Capt'n Midnight · 14-10-2017 04:16PM

dotsman wrote: »

Who is "they"? Certainly, there was a few people involved in telling porkies.

the aforementioned bankers.

Not that I am aware - minor, if any, financial benefit, I'd imagine. Certainly nothing in the grand scheme of things and nothing like "billions".

TBH that makes it worse, shafting the country to keep their jobs and face.

But seriously, I have no idea where you are getting the "diverting funds" from. The funding for the HSE and social welfare payments have absolutely sweet FA to do with Anglo.

Remind us again how much interest payments cost the country ?

Not all of this would have gone to health , but some of it would. And reduced spending in this area does lead to predictable increases in preventable deaths.

In 2017 the balance was
Health €14.6Bn ,
Debt servicing / EU payments €10.6 Bn

diomed · 14-10-2017 04:37PM

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Mad how the dept took 16 years to realise the woman was dead

Yes. My mother died in July and I registered her death at the registrar's office.
It would be an easy task for a computer programmer to match registered deaths against births / voting register.

I assume he did not dress up as his mother to collect her pension.
If he collected it a few times on her behalf there should be an automatic investigation.
It is a Department of Social Protection failure.

dotsman · 14-10-2017 05:21PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

the aforementioned bankers.

But which "bankers". Anglo was a large, complex organisation. Simply referring to a generic title is not good enough from a legal perspective.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

TBH that makes it worse, shafting the country to keep their jobs and face.

But the "shafting" as you put had long since been done. The money was long lost. It's very difficult to say if them being upfront and truthful or them trying to mask it had any impact on the cost to the state (and if so, how much).

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Remind us again how much interest payments cost the country ?

Not all of this would have gone to health , but some of it would. And reduced spending in this area does lead to predictable increases in preventable deaths.

In 2017 the balance was
Health €14.6Bn ,
Debt servicing / EU payments €10.6 Bn

The bulk of the cutbacks and state borrowing was to fund the exchequer due to the recession (nothing to do with the banks). Not once, either during the crisis, or today, has any budget seen a minister for finance cut healthcare to fund Anglo/IBRC. We already spend the largest percentage of our budget on health when compared to all other EU countries. There is no funding shortage for the HSE (there is, however, a massive trade union crisis in our Health System where healthcare funding is used to retain and increase huge salaries and woefully inefficient bureaucracies, rather than patient care and services).

Even if Anglo had been profitable and not required any state intervention, we would still have had a deep recession. The banking crisis and the fiscal crisis just played against each other to make each other worse. But the fact remains that we had engaged in an inflation driven economy for many years and this caught up with us and bit us in the ass.

baylah17 · 15-10-2017 09:29AM

dotsman wrote: »

Dr Brown wrote: »

The bankers running anglo committed outright fraud but they got away with it because of a botched prosecution.

I wish the state would put the same effort into prosecuting white collar criminals as they do for welfare fraudsters.

The bankers running Anglo did not "rob" billions. They lost billions due to incompetence, but they didn't "rob" billions.

And the government spent millions of euros and years of investigation to try and prosecute them.

They were found guilty of conspiri g to defraud billions, not incompetence , fraud

Guy:Incognito · 15-10-2017 09:39AM

What would people do if the financial crash hadn't happened and they didn't have "the bankers" to use as a reason why everyone shoild get away with crimes? Would they be ok withcriminals being punished ?

Man jailed for collecting dead mother's pension

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