Aer Lingus Fleet/Routes Discussion

Irish Steve · 05-10-2017 09:21PM

Using the rear doors on a WB is not ideal, there are significant security and safety issues in that, due to the distances and size of the aircraft, and on a lot of flights, the rear door is used by cleaners and other maintenance staff to get in and out of the aircraft, adding passengers into that mix would not be helpful.

There would also be "issues" with controlling passengers if the rear steps were used for boarding, it would need a lot more ramp staff/security to ensure that passengers didn't go astray, or mix with ramp staff during the process, which would be a massive red flag to American security and immigration control for departing flights, and Irish Immigration and customs would be less than happy with inbound passengers being on the ramp from long haul flights.

There's also the not insignificant issue of adverse weather, passengers don't like getting soaked when boarding on a 737, the problems would be worse on a wide body, the distances are longer, and the height is higher, so more exposed to the weather. If I'm about to board a 9 maybe 11 hour flight, I want to be comfortable during the flight, not steaming and cold as a result of getting wet while boarding. There's then also the issue of passengers with reduced mobility, whatever about coming down a set of steps from a 737, the steps on a 330 or 777 are a lot bigger, which may present real challenges to elderly or infirm passengers, even more so when boarding.

Marcusm · 05-10-2017 11:36PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

Using the rear doors on a WB is not ideal, there are significant security and safety issues in that, due to the distances and size of the aircraft, and on a lot of flights, the rear door is used by cleaners and other maintenance staff to get in and out of the aircraft, adding passengers into that mix would not be helpful.

There would also be "issues" with controlling passengers if the rear steps were used for boarding, it would need a lot more ramp staff/security to ensure that passengers didn't go astray, or mix with ramp staff during the process, which would be a massive red flag to American security and immigration control for departing flights, and Irish Immigration and customs would be less than happy with inbound passengers being on the ramp from long haul flights.

There's also the not insignificant issue of adverse weather, passengers don't like getting soaked when boarding on a 737, the problems would be worse on a wide body, the distances are longer, and the height is higher, so more exposed to the weather. If I'm about to board a 9 maybe 11 hour flight, I want to be comfortable during the flight, not steaming and cold as a result of getting wet while boarding. There's then also the issue of passengers with reduced mobility, whatever about coming down a set of steps from a 737, the steps on a 330 or 777 are a lot bigger, which may present real challenges to elderly or infirm passengers, even more so when boarding.

Passenger acceptability and the impact on turnaround timer relevant factors but there are probably moree wide body movements on Caribbean islands every day in precisely those conditions (albeit hot and wet) than there are WB movements in Dublin. The brightness/sunshinemakes all the difference.

adam88 · 06-10-2017 03:27PM

L1011 wrote: »

If they're on power-by-the-hour it isn't a particular problem if it's for a shorter term lease really. I don't know if they are; some of them are quite new where it'd be more common

What's power by the hour????

And why is it a problem to have two different engine types ??

billy few mates · 06-10-2017 04:58PM

adam88 wrote: »

What's power by the hour????

And why is it a problem to have two different engine types ??

It's an arrangement where an operator effectively pays a certain amount of money for each hour of operation to pay for the maintenance reserves which goes to pay for the shop visits and replacement of LLPs (life limited parts). It's like a sort of lease agreement which covers the future maintenance and is based on the operating hours and usually the selected thrust rating (the higher the rating, the higher the cost).

It's better to have a single engine type on a specific fleet type for commonality of spares, tooling, interchange flexibility, training and performance. Some engines don't perform as well at others in certain climatic conditions, you don't want to have an oddball airframe/engine mix that you can't swap easily between routes.
Having said that, there are lots of operators who do it (for many reasons including aircraft availability etc), it's just not ideal.

Irish Steve · 06-10-2017 06:36PM

What no one has mentioned is the down side of single type fleets or single engine types, which is that if a significant issue arises, it can result in the grounding of the entire operation until the regulators are happy with the resolution put in place by the manufacturer of whatever part has failed.

Fortunately, it's very rare for a type to be grounded in this way, but it has happened, and resolving the issue is not always an overnight quick fix, or minor part replacement, and in that case, the consequences for the operator can be massive.

Dardania · 06-10-2017 09:21PM

I also wonder sometimes if certain operators change from being say an airbus to boeing narrow body operation, to shake up their ops staff - encouraging less productive staff that wouldn’t be willing to retrain to move on... like air canada.

L1011 · 06-10-2017 10:07PM

Dardania wrote: »

I also wonder sometimes if certain operators change from being say an airbus to boeing narrow body operation, to shake up their ops staff - encouraging less productive staff that wouldn’t be willing to retrain to move on... like air canada.

That wouldn't be a sensible concern. The costs are so high it's just cheaper to pay the useless ones to go.

A single vendor airline is only a recent concept really - there always were some but the current 5 big vendors is the lowest ever. EI had Vickers, BAC, Fokker, Saab, Shorts craft along with the Boeings and the move to Airbus took multiple steps - long haul sand premium short haul over half a decade in the 90s then regular shorthaul including replacing the Commuter fleet over another half a decade

mikel97 · 06-10-2017 10:20PM

But the commuter prop planes are still there? I was on a Lingus Commuter Prop the other day. Not bad looking inside for what is probably an oldie? Not rattly at all and great fun

L1011 · 06-10-2017 10:28PM

mikel97 wrote: »

But the commuter prop planes are still there? I was on a Lingus Commuter Prop the other day. Not bad looking inside for what is probably an oldie? Not rattly at all and great fun

They left entirely. The Regional craft are mostly under 5 years old

Hotblack Desiato · 06-10-2017 10:32PM

Aer Lingus Regional ATR turboprop - operated by Stobart Air on behalf of Aer Lingus

what is it with people assuming props are old/obsolete - I seem to recall hearing that the average age of the ATRs in the Regional fleet is less than the Airbuses in the Aer Lingus mainline fleet.

ATR turboprops are in production today and are expected to be for years to come. On shorter and more lightly loaded routes they are far more economical than jets. Which of course means cheaper fares

they are a bit slower but on shorter routes this makes little difference, and the jets going to busy airports like Heathrow are going to inevitably hit holds/delays anyway.

Anyway age is of little relevance to a well maintained aircraft and EI have a reputation of being among the very best in the business in that regard.

mikel97 · 06-10-2017 10:47PM

L1011 wrote: »

They left entirely. The Regional craft are mostly under 5 years old

I had a look in the flight deck to say hi to the pilots and they said it was 27 years old...it was 7 when I was born. Nice to see them after the flight cool guys.

Hotblack Desiato · 06-10-2017 11:02PM

According to here https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Stobart-Air they have two ATRs which are 27 years old, they have five which are 9 or 10 years old, the rest are under five. It's really not an issue though. Some airlines prefer to spend money buying new or near new aircraft and selling them on before they need heavier maintenance, others pick up cheaper older aircraft knowing that the maintenance costs will be higher. Some will mix and match depending on their needs and what's available in the market at the time, the economics of how airlines are run is fascinating really and a huge topic in itself. Either way, airlines in Europe are probably the safest in the world and are extremely tightly regulated.

L1011 · 06-10-2017 11:15PM

The ancient ones are fully owned and used for the PSO routes mostly (keeping costs to the lowest possible, which is of benefit to the taxpayer) and the ~10 year old ones do not operate for EI.

They are the same family of aircraft, albeit two generations of mods behind the new ones. The ones they operate for Flybe are the generation in between.

joeysoap · 06-10-2017 11:39PM

Would it still be the same engines and propellers after 27 years, or would they need replacing after a number of years/flights/miles?

L1011 · 06-10-2017 11:41PM

joeysoap wrote: »

Would it still be the same engines and propellers after 27 years, or would they need replacing after a number of years/flights/miles?

Both would have hour limits for overhauls. Likelyhood is they aren't the original as engines get swapped around but they could be early 1990s engines - with most of the parts replaced.

The 72s use higher power rated versions and the different generations of 72 use different variations of the engine also so there won't be a 1990 engine on a 2016 72.

billy few mates · 06-10-2017 11:45PM

Think of Trigger's brush on Only Fools and Horses, he's had the same brush for eighteen years but in that time it's only had six handles and five heads...

AoifeOCaa · 07-10-2017 12:51AM

Does anyone know if all a330 aer lingus fleet will get the new inflight entertainment as in the new a330-300 (FNH, FNJ, GAJ and 757 fleet) this winter? or they will keep the old screens for the old aircrafts next year?

Bussywussy · 07-10-2017 06:32AM

AoifeOCaa wrote: »

Does anyone know if all a330 aer lingus fleet will get the new inflight entertainment as in the new a330-300 (FNH, FNJ, GAJ and 757 fleet) this winter? or they will keep the old screens for the old aircrafts next year?

They are retrofitting new screens this January onwards...similar screens to NH,AJ,NG,WR but slightly different in that it won't have USB outlet,the USB will be located in front of arm rest...no handsets except front economy rows..DAA is first up in January.

IrishYamm · 07-10-2017 09:38PM

Bussywussy wrote: »

They are retrofitting new screens this January onwards...similar screens to NH,AJ,NG,WR but slightly different in that it won't have USB outlet,the USB will be located in front of arm rest...no handsets except front economy rows..DAA is first up in January.

The new aircrafts (FNH FNJ etc) and b757 screens have an usb entry under the screen. Really handy.

I heard Aer Lingus crew are getting a new uniform next year. Not sure if this is just a rumour though as I have heard this one quite a few times now.

Locker10a · 07-10-2017 10:35PM

IrishYamm wrote: »

Bussywussy wrote: »

They are retrofitting new screens this January onwards...similar screens to NH,AJ,NG,WR but slightly different in that it won't have USB outlet,the USB will be located in front of arm rest...no handsets except front economy rows..DAA is first up in January.

.

I heard Aer Lingus crew are getting a new uniform next year. Not sure if this is just a rumour though as I have heard this one quite a few times now.

I really hope it's true, I think it was 1996 or 97 the current uniform was brought in. And while for a generation of Irish people it's become synonymous with flying, airports and the Aer Lingus brand its become very outdated the last few years.
I like the female colours, but the cut of the jacket and skirt belongs in a museum. Needs a refresh.

kevinandrew · 08-10-2017 10:29AM

Interesting video here from Travelextra from the Aer Lingus PHL announcement, the COO Mike Rutter talks about a number of subjects going forward

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL3uDoUJcv4&t=751s 

Once you get past the Dublin Airport issues there's a mention of the long awaited and often forgotten about Aer Space but he also speaks about a full Business Class experience on short haul.

- A321LR to feature full transatlantic business class (as expected)
- Full business could be used to through cities such as Paris
- Aer Space, with it's middle seat free and bundled product on the remainder of the network
- A two step approach, full business to key onward cities, Aer Space everywhere else?
- Short haul wifi included
- New product within a year or so... (we all know what that means)

I don't see it working in reality, the logistics, the demand and the fact no other airline in Europe feels the need to have anything other than a middle seat free style business product would make Aer Lingus' lie flat transatlantic product look like total overkill. The Aer Space product sounds like more than enough, certainly enough to match other European business class offerings.

IrishYamm · 08-10-2017 11:12AM

kevinandrew wrote: »

Interesting video here from Travelextra from the Aer Lingus PHL announcement, the COO Mike Rutter talks about a number of subjects going forward

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL3uDoUJcv4&t=751s 

Once you get past the Dublin Airport issues there's a mention of the long awaited and often forgotten about Aer Space but he also speaks about a full Business Class experience on short haul.

- A321LR to feature full transatlantic business class (as expected)
- Full business could be used to through cities such as Paris
- Aer Space, with it's middle seat free and bundled product on the remainder of the network
- A two step approach, full business to key onward cities, Aer Space everywhere else?
- Short haul wifi included
- New product within a year or so... (we all know what that means)

I don't see it working in reality, the logistics, the demand and the fact no other airline in Europe feels the need to have anything other than a middle seat free style business product would make Aer Lingus' lie flat transatlantic product look like total overkill. The Aer Space product sounds like more than enough, certainly enough to match other European business class offerings.

Interesting. No mention of the One World alliance.

Whats the new program you talking about?

kevinandrew · 08-10-2017 11:21AM

IrishYamm wrote: »

Interesting. No mention of the One World alliance.

Whats the new program you talking about?

Product... Aer Space. The premium economy/business class lite offering on European short haul.

It was a Q&A session, nobody asked him about Oneworld so it didn't come up.

Locker10a · 08-10-2017 08:13PM

The full business on European routes is probably just where A321lr are used inbetween transatlantic rotations a la A330s on FAO and AGP

JCX BXC · 08-10-2017 08:18PM

Locker10a wrote: »

The full business on European routes is probably just where A321lr are used inbetween transatlantic rotations a la A330s on FAO and AGP

Wouldn't have thought there was much business demand on sun routes, the A330 business class seats (not service) just being there out of circumstance?

goingnowhere · 08-10-2017 08:24PM

JCX BXC wrote: »

Wouldn't have thought there was much business demand on sun routes, the A330 business class seats (not service) just being there out of circumstance?

Certainly could be easily switched to full business service. The seats are sold at a premium over regular.

For the A321LR certainly a chance to get a quick trip to MAN/LHR/LGW/CDG/FRA/AMS/DUS etc and be back to fly to the US/CA again, the turnaround time on a 321 being a lot quicker than a 330

Arrive 4-6am, turnaround and fly out 6-7am, be back between 10am-12pm and fly out to the US. The 757 did a few LGW trips over the Summer between flights so it works, amazing aircraft utilisation also, out of the 8, might keep 1 or 2 just to shuttle to/from LHR

And of course if EI starts EU to US, you do the reverse

JCX BXC · 08-10-2017 08:30PM

goingnowhere wrote: »

Certainly could be easily switched to full business service. The seats are sold at a premium over regular.

I understand that, however is it not just a situation of circumstance? As in, the A330's offer extra capacity and as a result of these being used there is business seats available, as opposed to there being an actual market for business class on these routes?

Would there be any point fitting business class especially for these routes? FRA/LHR/AMS/CDG/MAN fair enough, but sun routes never struck me as routes that would have much of a business class demand.

VG31 · 08-10-2017 08:49PM

JCX BXC wrote: »

Would there be any point fitting business class especially for these routes? FRA/LHR/AMS/CDG/MAN fair enough, but sun routes never struck me as routes that would have much of a business class demand.

Those destinations are already served by airlines offering business class as it is.

goingnowhere · 08-10-2017 08:49PM

No problem shifting biz class to Orlando, seen it full in Summer season. Its a marketing issue, offer a full business class product at a reasonable cost and you will find takers for Malaga

At the moment its a joke, just the bigger seat. A330 offers a lot of seats at lower cost than sending out 2 A320's plus the widebody is a lot more family friendly with the IFE

VG31 · 08-10-2017 08:51PM

goingnowhere wrote: »

No problem shifting biz class to Orlando, seen it full in Summer season. Its a marketing issue, offer a full business class product at a reasonable cost and you will find takers for Malaga

British Airways offer business class from Dublin to Ibiza. It was really cheap last summer, even cheaper than Ryanair!

Aer Lingus Fleet/Routes Discussion

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