DCM 2017 Mentored Novices Thread

ariana` wrote: »

Ok my pmp runs have for the most part been disastrous, they've all been 20 seconds per km (or more) faster than PMP. Partially because I haven't really pinned down pmp. It's looking more and more like MP will be 6:05min/km (4:20 marathon - conditions permitting) so I set out this morning determined to have a good pmp run. I was still slightly in the fast side, average pace 6:00 min/km, but it felt much closer than I've been up to this. I ran a 3m Tempo run last night in place of the recovery run on the plan (having skipped the weekend lsr I didn't feel I needed a rec run) so my legs were a wee bit weary too so I was delighted that the pmp still felt very comfortable. HR was a little higher than I'd have liked but I think I'm still jet lagged having missed Monday night's sleep and last night was a bit hit n miss up with kids etc. So all in all happy with this last 'big' week so far. Planning on my 2nd 20 miler at the weekend and thinking I might try Sean's format for 1/3 @ lsr pace, 1/3 @ easy pace and 1/3 @ MP. I'm a bit nervous, if it goes well it'll be a real confidence boost but if it doesn't there's no chance to repeat it.

Sorry for the ramble, I'm thinking out loud really!

Sounds like we are in a very similar position. I went out for 13km today intending on doing 6:23 pace and did 6:05 even though I kept slowing myself down. I don't think I could sustain that for 26 miles though so I'm going to sit down tonight and play with numbers but thinking now I'll start with the 4:30 guys and use Sean's method too and hopefully come in closer to the 4:20 mark. I'm going to try it this Saturday on my 20 miler but don't entirely trust myself to stay slow. I had alarms beeping at me left right and centre running today as had set a 'too fast' and 'too slow' on my watch - and still couldn't slow down 😂

Kellygirl wrote: »

Damo and Baby75 - hope you can both get sorted. Only advice i'd have is to get physio appointments as quick as possible. If was me Baby75 I'd try and run but only you can tell how bad it is. You need to be prepared to stop or give up. I ran with somebody who does ultras once and she said most runners have niggles of some sort that they can run with but it's telling the difference is the hard part. I always notice in pictures of races that people have knee braces and all sorts on and I always wonder how you tell if it's ok to run or not! So I'm not very helpful but maybe see how it goes?

I called into our trainer from the local club and my soleus muscle is tight he said to stretch it and mind it so yea a trip to the physio may well be needed again

I know I might do damage if I tried 10 miles tonight so I am going to try a short run and see how I go, I went to spinning and no issues and no pain or tenderness this evening when walking around so FX it is just tight

Sorry to see a few of you hit with injuries at this late stage. It was the same last year, most made the start line and hit their goal too so stay positive and look after those niggles . The hard work is mostly done now .

Kellygirl wrote: »

What’s the longest run you have done so far at that pace? I did have a two min toilet stop in Cork but i’d gotten slightly ahead of the 4:45 pacers at that stage and they ran past and I just caught up with them. Wasn’t a real issue.

The problem is I haven't really hit that pace too often. The closest 2 runs would be 11miles @ 5:43 and 18 miles @ 6:12.

That's good to know about the toilet break

Kellygirl wrote: »

I think it might be a lot to expect yourself to be able to sustain it for the entire 26.2miles. But if you start off a little slower and then conserve your energy for a bit you may hit it later. The pacers will also tell you when to start pulling away from them too. I’m just playing with figures here and let’s say you start with the 4:30 guys and we split the course in 3 14kms sections

14km @ 6:23 - 1 hr 29mins
14km @ 6:15 - 1 hr 27mins
14.2km @ 5:55 - 1 hr 24 min
Total is 4 hr 20.

Now you have water stops and stuff that might slow you the odd time.

But if you start at the 4:20pace which is 6:09 and let’s say get to 20 miles in 3hrs 18 and then lose energy and have to start walking or even slowly running at 7:00min/km then the last 6.2 miles take 1hr 9 mins and now you have a 4hr 29 Marathon.

I think I personally am more comfortable with the first option even though the 5:55 is probably a stretch that late in the race.

That makes real sense on paper. My problem would be to trust myself for the middle 14 km, that's when I know I could do damage without the support of a pacer/group It's such a dilemma. But maybe 6:15 would be a stretch at that stage anyhow so maybe I wouldn't be able do damage!!

Kellygirl wrote: »

I think it might be a lot to expect yourself to be able to sustain it for the entire 26.2miles. But if you start off a little slower and then conserve your energy for a bit you may hit it later. The pacers will also tell you when to start pulling away from them too. I’m just playing with figures here and let’s say you start with the 4:30 guys and we split the course in 3 14kms sections

14km @ 6:23 - 1 hr 29mins
14km @ 6:15 - 1 hr 27mins
14.2km @ 5:55 - 1 hr 24 min
Total is 4 hr 20.

Now you have water stops and stuff that might slow you the odd time.

But if you start at the 4:20pace which is 6:09 and let’s say get to 20 miles in 3hrs 18 and then lose energy and have to start walking or even slowly running at 7:00min/km then the last 6.2 miles take 1hr 9 mins and now you have a 4hr 29 Marathon.

I think I personally am more comfortable with the first option even though the 5:55 is probably a stretch that late in the race.

Just a question for you both...why do you find it so difficult to hold back to slower paces? How often do you check your watches? Another thing to take into account is if you have a history of running out of gas. If not I'd suggest your onboard computer, your brain, is good at calculating how much effort you can give for the distance remaining...

skyblue46 wrote: »

Just a question for you both...why do you find it so difficult to hold back to slower paces? How often do you check your watches? Another thing to take into account is if you have a history of running out of gas. If not I'd suggest your onboard computer, your brain, is good at calculating how much effort you can give for the distance remaining...

I was checking my watch non stop today as had it beeping and vibrating at me the whole time because of the alarms i’d set re pacing slow and fast. The first km was supposed to be warm up and I came in at 6:23 on the button so I thought great, I have it sorted and then somehow ended up too fast for the rest of the run. Maybe i’d be better setting an average pace rather than actual as that seemed too sensitive on my watch. I used not have this issue before so don’t know why at the moment.

8kms tomorrow eve and i’ll try go slow again.

Kellygirl wrote: »

I was checking my watch non stop today as had it beeping and vibrating at me the whole time because of the alarms i’d set re pacing slow and fast. The first km was supposed to be warm up and I came in at 6:23 on the button so I thought great, I have it sorted and then somehow ended up too fast for the rest of the run. Maybe i’d be better setting an average pace rather than actual as that seemed too sensitive on my watch. I used not have this issue before so don’t know why at the moment.

8kms tomorrow eve and i’ll try go slow again.

I have nearly always run alone and without music etc. I'm pacing non stop practically. If I'm targetting 6 min Kms I will be looking to be at 0.1 of a km in 36 secs, 0.2 in 1:12 etc etc. Totally OCD I know but it means I never find myself 30 seconds too fast in a km. It is a way of me passing the time.

ariana` wrote: »

I check my watch a lot on runs where I'm very determined to stick to a pace (like today) but most of the easy/lsr runs I go by feel and these to be naturally falling around 6:20-6:30 min/km now recently.

I've never really run out of gas so to speak as in hit a wall or not be able finish. I might be wrecked but I generally keep going... I find the long runs more mentally challenging than physical, I get bored/impatient especially in the last 1/3. I'm thinking of the 10 million other things I need to be to be at...like a lot of us on here I've kids with football/hurling/rugby/karate/swimming/scouts training/matches and just generally time is more of a pull in me than gas. And I've noticed all my LSRs I finish the last 1-2km at a good pace, when the end is in sight I seem to naturally pick up the pace.

So as the scone man said, what's the problem? You run LSR at good paces, you are training well, you finish strongly, I'm sure your mind will be fully on the task on the day without distractions....sounds like you are in a very good place. Go run it and enjoy it

skyblue46 wrote: »

I have nearly always run alone and without music etc. I'm pacing non stop practically. If I'm targetting 6 min Kms I will be looking to be at 0.1 of a km in 36 secs, 0.2 in 1:12 etc etc. Totally OCD I know but it means I never find myself 30 seconds too fast in a km. It is a way of me passing the time.

Like Ariana i’ve got used to running by feel as well and just relaxing a bit as I run. I do a lot of day dreaming I think and I listen to podcasts sometimes too. I run with people a lot too so run according to feel a lot then.

ariana` wrote: »

I check my watch a lot on runs where I'm very determined to stick to a pace (like today) but most of the easy/lsr runs I go by feel and these to be naturally falling around 6:20-6:30 min/km now recently.

I wonder are we over thinking all this 😂

Kellygirl wrote: »

Like Ariana i’ve got used to running by feel as well and just relaxing a bit as I run. I do a lot of day dreaming I think and I listen to podcasts sometimes too. I run with people a lot too so run according to feel a lot then.



I wonder are we over thinking all this 😂

I'm going to go with yes!! But running by feel and relaxing is the way to go, and is only something I've gotten the hang of myself in the last year or so.

Look, I'm very wary of doling out advice - I'm far, far from being knowledgeable and everything I say is just based on my own experiences.
First off - you ran 4:45 in Cork, but you say you had a bad time after 20 miles. I had a terrible day in Cork myself and didn't even make it to 20 miles before I fell apart. Conditions that day were very tough in my opinion - very warm and humid so I'd be expecting a bit more from you in Dublin - conditions are usually much cooler. Don't forget you have another marathon training block under your belt now and all the benefits and increases in fitness that brings. I did Cork as my first in 2015 and did Dublin the same year and saw an improvement of almost 5%, and I had a good day in Cork that year.

ariana` wrote: »

6:05-6:10 is MP if i target 4:20. Most of my LSRs have been slower in fairness, I can't remember what happened that day but the pace got away with me, most of them have been circa 6:40-6:50 and more recently 6:30. And also at the start of this process rather naively my PMP was significantly faster than it is now! I think I was pretty beat after that run but I usually am after an LSR, I was no worse for wear that day.

Your getting fitter and your easy pace is getting faster. You'll gain a lot of fitness, especially during your first marathon training block. If your long run pace @6:30 min/km (10:28 min/mile) is comfortable, then I think (after the taper) that you should have no problem running 9:55min/mile (6:10min/km) on race day. A good strategy might be to go out with the 4:20 pacers and if your feeling good at 15 miles or so, push on a bit. If you find it too hard after a mile then just slow back down to race pace. I just can't help wondering if you have a bit more in you than you think you do - especially after that 18 miler.

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Look, I'm very wary of doling out advice - I'm far, far from being knowledgeable and everything I say is just based on my own experiences.

Your getting fitter and your easy pace is getting faster. You'll gain a lot of fitness, especially during your first marathon training block. If your long run pace @6:30 min/km (10:28 min/mile) is comfortable, then I think (after the taper) that you should have no problem running 9:55min/mile (6:10min/km) on race day. A good strategy might be to go out with the 4:20 pacers and if your feeling good at 15 miles or so, push on a bit. If you find it too hard after a mile then just slow back down to race pace. I just can't help wondering if you have a bit more in you than you think you do - especially after that 18 miler.

First off I'd say keep doling out the advice. Anyone with experiences is helpful to us novices and the advice is greatly appreciated.

You touch on a great point there about improved fitness. Ironically it introduces the biggest questions. People who worried about finishing a 10k strongly are now running 10 miles at the same pace. We feel fitter, stronger, better and faster. We start to believe we can target optimistic times....BUT....the wall, dying at 16-20 miles, the fear pushes us back, makes us question ourselves and we get in knots trying to plan how to pace the day.

skyblue46 wrote: »

First off I'd say keep doling out the advice. Anyone with experiences is helpful to us novices and the advice is greatly appreciated.

You touch on a great point there about improved fitness. Ironically it introduces the biggest questions. People who worried about finishing a 10k strongly are now running 10 miles at the same pace. We feel fitter, stronger, better and faster. We start to believe we can target optimistic times....BUT....the wall, dying at 16-20 miles, the fear pushes us back, makes us question ourselves and we get in knots trying to plan how to pace the day.

Yeah - that fear never goes away though. :eek:

And remember, this may be your first marathon, so try and enjoy it. But for a lot of you, it won't be your last so if it all doesn't go to plan on the day - you'll get to have another go. Regardless, you'll have run a marathon!! How many of you thought you'd be saying that this time last year?

Great advice as usual I plan on running by how I feel and going out with the 4.20 pacers but will let them go on if I think it is too fast

Kellygirl thanks for the good wishes I survived and enjoyed my run

I did not run the planned 10 miles but got out for 4.6 I stretched and foam rolled before we left no issues and all feels good so far my legs did feel tired and the pace was easy and felt hard but I think that was because of spinning beforehand, I did take a tumble tonight I was looking at my watch to check distance the path was uneven and over I went actually I think I will bring my head torch in future LOL all is good though no damage done
Now fx I wake up with no niggle tomorrow.

Kellygirl wrote: »

I think it might be a lot to expect yourself to be able to sustain it for the entire 26.2miles. But if you start off a little slower and then conserve your energy for a bit you may hit it later. The pacers will also tell you when to start pulling away from them too. I’m just playing with figures here and let’s say you start with the 4:30 guys and we split the course in 3 14kms sections

14km @ 6:23 - 1 hr 29mins
14km @ 6:15 - 1 hr 27mins
14.2km @ 5:55 - 1 hr 24 min
Total is 4 hr 20.

Now you have water stops and stuff that might slow you the odd time.

But if you start at the 4:20pace which is 6:09 and let’s say get to 20 miles in 3hrs 18 and then lose energy and have to start walking or even slowly running at 7:00min/km then the last 6.2 miles take 1hr 9 mins and now you have a 4hr 29 Marathon.

I think I personally am more comfortable with the first option even though the 5:55 is probably a stretch that late in the race.

ariana` wrote: »

I check my watch a lot on runs where I'm very determined to stick to a pace (like today) but most of the easy/lsr runs I go by feel and these to be naturally falling around 6:20-6:30 min/km now recently.

I've never really run out of gas so to speak as in hit a wall or not be able finish. I might be wrecked but I generally keep going... I find the long runs more mentally challenging than physical, I get bored/impatient especially in the last 1/3. I'm thinking of the 10 million other things I need to be at...like a lot of us on here I've kids with football/hurling/rugby/karate/swimming/scouts training/matches and just generally time is more of a pull on me than gas. And I've noticed all my LSRs I finish the last 1-2km at a good pace, when the end is in sight I seem to naturally pick up the pace.

Its funny reading the exchanges - we all have them, at every level.

Imagine what our significant others would think & say - "Hang on, you are running 26.2 miles and you are worrying if your pace should be a few seconds faster/slower per mile"

I think you both know what your goals are -

Ariana - go with 4.20 - make a poster, stick it on your fridge.

KellyGirl - I think you might want to find the standard deviation of the coefficient of x-y and go at that pace for 3.46km before multiplying it by 'y'.

No Seriously - pick a plan for the day and stick with it - you dont want to be stressing in the coming 3 weeks about it - because you will stress.
Pick a time - stick with it - write it down and visualize it.

One of the most difficult things for a novice marathoner is to imagine the feeling of getting lifted by the crowd to the highest point at Castleknock, the crowds at the roundabout in Crumlin, the cheers up Roebuck, and the wall of noise in the home straight - it stays with you and gives you extra.

Stick with a plan - go out sensibly, especially the 1st 7 miles. Pace the hills and inclines a tad slower. Finish strong. Smile along the way.