Hotel Cancels Pro life event due to Intimidation.

ELM327 wrote: »

That's a good point. For clarity the amendment should be replaced with a statement empowering the houses of the oireachtas to legislate. That should be the question posed in the referendum. "To repeal the 8th and replace it with xxx"

The problem* with that is that it gives politicians no cover, and they will be the ones to have to grapple with what precise circumstances to legislate for (rape/incest/FFA/risk to health/on demand pre-16 weeks). Given FG lost a sizeable portion of their party over suicide risk which affects a handful of cases per year, i would have thought that politicans would desperately want to avoid a solution which says to them 'go off and legislate how you see fit'.

While this solution seems to be out of vogue, it would be far better politically to have a few referenda in one and ask the people to address each of the key issues. Then the politicians will have 'no choice' but to implement those choices. I appreciate that that solution is far from ideal either but seems like the best of a very bad bunch of options.

I would hate to be on that committee at the moment.

* for politicians

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

And if they get a second venue & if the same people manage to pressure the second venue into canceling the meeting, then say they book a third venue & the meeting at the third venue gets canceled following pressure, where would you suggest they hold their meeting & freely assemble ?

Why do the hotels feel that they should cancel based on requests by Pro Choice groups? Surely, if there are so many anti-abortion/Pro Life/anti-choice people then they will get support and business from them regardless of Pro Choice attitudes?

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Many, many, many women and men and families have raised happy, healthy kids that, while they were pregnant they did not want and could not afford.
Why is it that some mothers who gave children up for adoption spend years trying to contact them?

You really have no idea what is in the hearts and minds of people who have raised happy, healthy kids that they did not want and could not afford. Of course most decent people who are forced to have a child they don't want love and treat that child well once they are there. It doesn't mean that they don't wish that things had been different or are even very successfully hiding resentment that things are as they are now.

As for the mothers who gave up children for adoption - most of them did it against their will at a time when they had absolutely no support. People don't want to be forced to have a baby that they will always wonder about, and how many adopted kids suffered horrible upbringings as a result of being adopted or once it was revealed they were adopted suffered knowing that they were rejected. A lot of children were adopted because their 'parents' couldn't have their own babies but before the ink was barely dried on the adoption papers their adoptive mothers suddenly became pregnant because there was no longer pressure on them - how many of those found themselves sidelined by the younger 'real' baby?

SafeSurfer wrote: »

For something that is so unpleasant it seems odd that in 2016 alone, 40% of those having abortions have had at least one before and 50 women each had 8 abortions. Those are the figures in the U.K. for 2016 alone.

So if the figure of 40% in one year are having a second abortion. Multiple abortions seems to be the norm.

I'm not sure why you think having an abortion is unpleasant. Based on my own experiences it isn't. Are you hoping/thinking it should be unpleasant in order to 'teach the woman a lesson' so it won't happen again? People have far more than one or two 'oh **** it, my period is late and I could be pregnant' scares in their lifetime so why should they not be having two or more abortions in that same lifetime? What is so wrong with multiple abortions if they are allowed and legal?

Grayson wrote: »

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Regarding the hotel, I've been sent evidence of a post in a group with more than 40,000 people in it, asking people in the group to get involved in messaging the hotel's Facebook page:

And I've posted the number of posts that appear on the hotels page. It's feck all.

Strangely, on twitter it's the opposite. I checked one hotel and  there was one pro choice message at the hotel. There was 7 pro life messages.

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Do you honestly think the hotel canceled because they hadn't known what type of group they were dealing with until the protesters told them? Realistically, they canceled because they were afraid of protests and 'trouble' at the event. The protesters wouldn't even have to explicitly threaten this, even a hint of it would send any hotel running for the hills because, as tomwaterford points out, that stuff is catastrophic for business.

There have been loads of pro life events in hotels in Ireland. Can you point to one that had a big protest outside?

Also, all the facebook posts and news articles have pro lifers explicitly saying that the staff experienced threats and intimidation. In which case they're lying.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

To those who are defending pressuring the hotel into cancelling the event as "part of free speech", how would you feel about a group pressuring councils into banning certain parties from putting up posters at election time, or pressuring the companies who produce the posters into refusing to do so?

How would you feel about the large printing companies agreeing, one by one, not to print posters from FF because of pressure from FG supporters? What if FG weren't able to have their Ard Fheis anywhere because FF supporters had successfully pressured every hotel with a large function room into not hosting them?

Actually, I'm fine with it depending on the content that those groups have. I don't care if a pro life group has a meeting. That's fine. Have a march too. I'm not ok with a group that lies to vulnerable pregnant women who are looking for help. I'm not ok with them fundraising. I don't think they should be allowed do that. I think the people that do that should be charged and fined/jailed.
I think any organisation that campaigns on an issue should be honest and not tell lies like abortion causes breast cancer, abortion makes women into child abusers.
The same would go for a political party. Political parties in Ireland are censured if they lie but because these groups are non profits and charities they get away with this bullsh1t and that's ridiculous.

"" Also, all the facebook posts and news articles have pro lifers explicitly saying that the staff experienced threats and intimidation. In which case they're lying.  ""

Peader Toibin posted some tweets about this.

https://twitter.com/Toibin1/status/913101299826200576

https://twitter.com/Toibin1/status/913102530795773956

I suspect certain stuff isn,t being said publicly if the Gardai are looking into such threats .
Even the Journal.ie has an article up about it.

"" [font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]It has been alleged that staff members received death threats online after it emerged the Spencer Hotel was to host the event after The Gibson cancelled. A complaint has not yet been made to gardaí over the incident but [/font][font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]TheJournal.ie [/font][font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]has been made aware of the specific nature of the threats. ""[/font]

[font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]http://www.thejournal.ie/hotel-dublin-pro-life-3619632-Sep2017/[/font]

I will await the evidence of death threats - find it very hard to believe that that is the tactic of any of the pro choice groups I've interacted with but there's no accounting for lone nutters I guess.

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

According to Peader Toibin it has, Im referring to this tweet & quoting him.

https://twitter.com/Toibin1/status/913102530795773956

Certain details prob won,t be made public info, if threats are being investigated .

you also quoted the journal which said that no complaint has been made to the gardai. it cant be both.

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Peader is a pro life supporter, Im taking a guess that perhaps he might have more info on what,s going on behind the scenes.

how would he have that? the death threats were apparently made to hotel staff. what involvement would he have with reporting that to the gardai? that is a matter for the hotel and its staff.

up for anything wrote: »

Why do the hotels feel that they should cancel based on requests by Pro Choice groups? Surely, if there are so many anti-abortion/Pro Life/anti-choice people then they will get support and business from them regardless of Pro Choice attitudes?

You really have no idea what is in the hearts and minds of people who have raised happy, healthy kids that they did not want and could not afford.

How do you know I have no idea what it is like to be in this situation?

Of course most decent people who are forced to have a child they don't want love and treat that child well once they are there. It doesn't mean that they don't wish that things had been different or are even very successfully hiding resentment that things are as they are now.

There are many, many people including guest speakers who talk of their relief at not having an abortion. Also there are many women who have had an abortion who suffer from grief and resentment, even if they very successfully hide this.

As for the mothers who gave up children for adoption - most of them did it against their will at a time when they had absolutely no support. People don't want to be forced to have a baby that they will always wonder about, and how many adopted kids suffered horrible upbringings as a result of being adopted or once it was revealed they were adopted suffered knowing that they were rejected.

Is abortion not the ultimate rejection?

A lot of children were adopted because their 'parents' couldn't have their own babies but before the ink was barely dried on the adoption papers their adoptive mothers suddenly became pregnant because there was no longer pressure on them - how many of those found themselves sidelined by the younger 'real' baby?

That is a question neither of us can answer.

I'm not sure why you think having an abortion is unpleasant. Based on my own experiences it isn't. Are you hoping/thinking it should be unpleasant in order to 'teach the woman a lesson' so it won't happen again? People have far more than one or two 'oh **** it, my period is late and I could be pregnant' scares in their lifetime so why should they not be having two or more abortions in that same lifetime? What is so wrong with multiple abortions if they are allowed and legal?

A previous poster described abortion as unpleasant and spoke of potential risk and discomfort. I am glad that your experience of abortion was not unpleasant.

I am not hoping/thinking it should be unpleasant in order to teach a woman a lesson. These are your words, your projections, not mine.

I think, and it is only my opinion, that 50 women per year in the UK having their eight termination is a sign that there is a serious lack of education, counselling, care being directed at these women, if we agree that abortions are "least worst" decisions rather than the ideal.

Multiple of any procedure should be avoided, whether that is colonoscopies or abortions is irrelevant.

Some people would be of the opinion that having 8 abortions for reasons other than rape/incest/FFA displays a blase attitude to a procedure which, as in all medical procedures, carries a degree of risk.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Peader is a pro life supporter, Im taking a guess that perhaps he might have more info on what,s going on behind the scenes.

how would he have that?  the death threats were apparently made to hotel staff.  what involvement would he have with reporting that to the gardai?  that is a matter for the hotel and its staff.

Given he is likely friends with some people in the pro life movement, there was likely talk behind the scenes about the meetings being canceled.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Given he is likely friends with some people in the pro life movement, there was likely talk behind the scenes about the meetings being canceled.

that doesnt answer the question.  how would pro life groups have information on whether the hotel had made a complaint to the gardai?

He never said the hotel made a complaint to the Gardai, all he said was 

"" It is being reported to the Gardai "" 

https://twitter.com/Toibin1/status/913102530795773956