The Greatest Teams Ever Debate (Dublin - The Greatest Team Ever?)

manofwisdom wrote:

Donegal won U21 All Irelands in 1982, 1987 A. Molloy, D. Reid, M. McHugh, C. Mulgrew, J. McMullan,J.J. Doherty, P. Hegarty,B. McGowan, M. Boyle came from those U21 winning teams and Donegal seniors won Ulster in 1990. I don't see the similarities with Sligo there.

Yep I forgot that underage sucess..Apologies my mistake.
. Similarities with Sligo prior to 92 Donegal had very few titles . Only won first Ulster title in early 70s and second 1 in 83 and third in 1990. Donegal in the last 25 years have become a top GAA county. A football superpower. Before 92 for alot of Donegal history the county would have been more a Division 3 team. That's the similarity to Donegal and Sligo I mean.. I hope no offence is taken with that. Have family in Sligo and Donegal lovely charming people.

Stoner wrote:

You've made some interesting points, they will be very popular with some here, some flutes too.

Stoner wrote:

Overall I agree with your assessment of Leinster. I'll go one step further and be even more unpopular.

Stoner wrote:

When Dublin and Mayo dipped the other counties picked up provincial titles and didn't get over the line. Westmeath, Offaly, Kildare, Laois.

Stoner wrote:

They all needed both Dublin and Meath to be relatively poor at the same time to win a provincial title after 96.

Stoner
I have to disagree again
Kildare 98 -2000 were an excellent team..Best Kildare team of the last 90 years. A brillant defence of Dalton Lacey Ryan and Rainbow with Earley Lynch and McCreery in midfield. Kildare 98 defeated three All Ireland champions Dublin 95, Meath 96 and Kerry 97. They had one hand in the cup in 98. Where the best team in the first half in the final. But Donnellan and Galway ran riot in the second half. Their victory over Dublin in 2000 was one of the greatest leinster final comebacks ever. 2000 win is Kildare only victory over Dublin in a leinster final in 90 years. If Kildare had one quality forward they would have Sam in this period. Along with Roscomon late 70s and the current Mayo team Kildare 98 to 2000 could be one the best teams not to win an All.Ireland in thr last 50 years.

2 Offaly won their only leinster title in 30 years with champagne football in 97. They also won their first and only national league div 1 title in 98. The full forward line of Peter Brady Roy Malone Vinny Caffley was one of the best full forward lines in the country in the late 90s. They also knocked reigning All Ireland champions Meath out of the championship twice frist in 97 and second time in 2000

3 Westmeath 2003 were very good team. Meath played a few times at the time. And Westmeath at the time played a lovely brand of open attacking football. They were divsion 1 team in 03 04. Beaten Dublin well in 03. And their first win ever under Paudi was one of the GAA sucess stories of the time

4 Laois in 2004 played some brillant football. The display in 2004 final v kildare by their forwards is one of the best forward displays I ever saw in leinster final ever. They had a top class forward line of Fitzgerald Beano McDonald's Parkinson Munnelly. But probaly needed few more warriors in defence to win an All Ireland. But they did have the forwards to win an All Ireland.

Also Dublin were weak. I don't buy that. Dublin are never weak. Since 1974 Dublin every year have been in top 5 or 6 teams in country. In 2002 they could have won Sam. They were on fire throughout the championship. Ray Cosgrove was hitting massive scores. And only where defeated by Armagh in the semi final when Cosgrove hit a free against the bar to equalise the game with the last kick of game. Lyons teams seem to make great impact in first year Offaly 97 and Dublin 2002. But after the first season Tommy Lyons teams fade badly. I think Dublin had good players in the mid 00s but not a great manager.

Meath Yep by mid 00s the 90s team was gone and Boylan was on his way to retirement. Meath were in transition until Coyle kick started a new Meath team 07 to 10.

Blanch 15522

Tyrone v Armagh was an incredibly intense final. Where two neighbouring counties went to war. But yes I made mistake I named 50 finals and I shouldn't have left 03 in. My mistake . Well done you. 03 shouldn't have been put on the list but when going through 80 years of finals in your head in five mins your going to get 1 or 2 wrong.
But one thing I haven't got wrong is Dublin and All Ireland finals
Still doesn't change Dublin haven't played a great performance in the last 12 finals. You don't seem to see that.

Stoner you talk about % leinster wins Dublin is better then Meath. That's a fact. But Meath still are the second most successful county in leinster and joint fourth most successful county in the country.

People talk about Dublins advantages they have . Which they do. But if you look at the last 70 or 80 years even though Dublin have all these advantages Meath have gone toe to toe Dublin up to this decade.

In the last 70 years in leinster leaving out this decade

Dublin have 9 All Irelands
Meath have 7 All Irelands
Offaly have 3 All Irelands
Louth have 1 All Ireland
That's all the All Ireland winners in leinster up to 2011

Meath have won nearly twice as much All Ireland then the rest of leinster put together. (Leaving out Dublin).

Anyway If look at gaelic football overall Meath and Down are the two counties that have greatly overachieved. Look at Down 5 All Irelands to Armagh 1. Both similar counties geographically but there is a serious difference in All Ireland wins

Look at the area in Ireland where Meath comes from . Leaving Dublin to one side Meath are in a strong football area with great football counties but who have had little sucess for decades.

Look at Kildare and Meath. Very similar landscapes, towns and accents. There's not to much difference between the counties. But in football Meath have played in 15 senior finals in the last 90 years. Kildare have played in 1 senior final in 90 years. Meath have 7 National league divsion 1 titles . Kildare have never won a national league divsion 1 title. Meath have 3 minor titles.kildare have never won a minor title.

I don't mean to put down Kildare. Great football county great supporters and a great tradition. But the difference between Meath and Kildare sucess is startling.

(In terms of league titles only kerry Mayo Dublin and Cork have more titles then Meaths 7 div 1 league titles.
League titles are hard won. And the spread of wins is not very wide. The top counties win so many of the league titles. So many counties have only won their first and only title recently eg Laois 1 title in 85 Offaly 1 title in 98 Donegal 1 title in 200? Armagh 1 title in 2005 or 2006 Tyrone 1 title in 2003 or 2004 also. Roscomon won their first and only title in 1978. So Meath 7 wins with a win in 30s 40s 50s 70s 80s and 90s is another sign of Meath overachieving)

If you look at the top 5 or 6 most successful counties who standa out from the top counties 1 Kerry 2 Dublin 3 Galway 4 Cork 5 Meath 6 Down.

Kerry is a football genius of county. The New Zealand Brazil of gaelic football. If you love football you have a bit of love for the Kingdom.

But look. At other top counties. It is no surprise that Dublin Cork and Galway are in the top 5. These our Irelands most famous most powerful biggest important counties in the country..
Dublin is the centre of political social economic and cultural life in the country. Galway is the centre of social economic political and cultural like in the west of Ireland . And Cork is the centre of social economic political and cultural life in Munster.

That these three world famous counties are in the top 3 is no surprise.
But Meath and Down are in thr top 5 or 6 is a surprise. But counties don't stand out. Meath is a bog standard Midlands county. There is some ancient history in the county. But it does not have the impact and power and stature that a county like Cork has.

Yet in Gaelic football terms Meath and Down are in the top counties. They have both overachieved as counties. 7 All Irelands and 5 All Irelands is a massive haul in Gaelic football terms.
You could even make the arguement that after Kerry , Meath and Down are gaelic football two great5st counties.
Up to this decade Dublin had under achieved with all its resources. They are achieving their full potential the Dubs this decade.

Cork have achieved greatness in hurling but you could also say Cork football the county with the most football clubs in Ireland has under achieved. Galway great years were from 30s to 60s. With 2 wins in half century are Galway now underachieving. But Meath and Down have overachieved

And Maybe that's both counties problem. They are now returning to the pack and their golden eras are finished..
Are Meath now the new Cavan. Are Meath and Down best days behind them.

Stoner
you said that Dublin had beaten Meath % of times. But there is a story behind that %. Every provience has a story, a massive rivalry that underpins and impacts that provience through the ages. Munster have Cork and Kerry. Connacht have Mayo and Galway. In leinster that rivalry is Meath v Dublin. Allot people think Meath v Dublin rivalry began in 80s. This is wrong it began 40 years earlier in the 1940s.

The Story of leinster football in the last 70 to 80s years is a story of Meath v Dublin rivalry. There are under wonderful players and events that are important and mighty . But Meath v Dublin rivalry has caused seismic changes in the provience decade after decade.

People talk about Dublins advantage and resources but one team has gone toe to toe with Dublin up to this decade. No county has defeated Dublin , has broken Dublin and made Dublin change and evolve more then Meath over the decades . Yes Kerry and Ulster teams also have a role. But local neighbour, a local rival always has the biggest impact rather then the faraway foes.

So what is the story of leinster football. Since 40s it goes like this Stoner. Sit back it a long story. And you know my long rambling stories

Basically Dublin are the kingpins, the dominant force in leinster. Dublin have gone up a level and then Meath come from nowhere and knock Dublin from their perch. Meath now become top dogs in leinster and then Ireland and Dublin are faltering under the power of a Royal surge. Meath deline. Dublin rise again and go up another level. And Meath come again from nowhere and knock Dublin from their perch. And the cycle begins again and repeats itself again and again.

In the last 70 to 80 years Meath have knocked Dublin from their perch 5 times In the 40s 50s 60s 80s and 90s. While in the 70s they defeated Dublin in a league final and went toe to toe with Dublin for 5 years. In the noughties Meath still defeated Dublin more then any other leinster county. And this period culminated in Dublins worst defeat in leinster football in a half century in 2010 with a 5 goal hammering.

When Meath knock Dublin from their perch Meath then go on a run of victories over Dublin year after year. The one thing the Dubs can never deal with is a strong Meath team. The Dubs only true weakness is a strong All Ireland Meath winning team at its peak.

1 Meath first knock Dublin from their perch 1947

Dublin have gone up a level teams full of the best country lads working in Dublin. Meath are a divsion 3 team. Meath come from nowhere and defeat Dublin in 47. In the next few years Meath defeat Dublin 5 times in a row in the championship. The battles between Paddy O Brien and Kevin Heffernan are legendary. If you said Meath would play in 5 All Irelands in 5 years in spring 47 you would have been laughed at , but that's what happened. Meath had great battles with great Louth and Cavan teams at the time. But it was the battles with Dublin that were the making of that Meath team.


2 Meath knock Dublin from.their perch 1964

Dublin were in a very strong position in Spring 64. They had gone up a level in previous years. Instead of country lads and now under Kevin Heffernan influence, and responding to bad defeats to Meath and Louth in the late 40s and early 50s, Dublin was now an All Dublin team full of Vincent's players.

It worked for now Dublin were the dominant force in leinster and All Ireland champions in 58 and 63. Meath in the early 60s where heading to divsion 4 . Then out of nowhere back boned by the Quinn brothers Meath defeated Dublin in leinster final with Meaths greatest leinster final win v Dublin ever. Dublin were reigning All Ireland champions. Meath became the dominant force in leinster in the sixties. This Meath team led by Jack Quinn would reach 3 All Ireland finals winning 1 in 1967. And Dublin would not beat Meath for another 11 years.

(This team also became the first international rules team. For after 1967 final this Meath team went on a tour of Australia playing Auzzie Rules teams, and so beginning the whole Ireland v Australia international rules.)

3 Meath knock Dublin from their perch again 1986

Dublin were incredibly dominate in leinster in mid 80s. They had 6 in row leinsters in 70s and three more in 80s by 85. They had played in 8 All Ireland finals in 11 years between 74 and 85 . They had gone up a level again. In terms of fitness ,preparation, tactics, player ability , talent ,skill and role of manager. Meath had not won leinster title in 16 years and at the start of the decade where heading to divsion 4 after championship loses to Wexford and longford. An headline on the front of the Meath chronicle in 82 after the longford loss read "Meath football RIP".

Within 3 years of that headline appearing on the front of the Meath chronicle ,again Meath would topple Dublin in 86 leinster final. And become the dominate force in leinster and the country playing 5 All Ireland finals in 5 years .
And playing Dublin in 9 championship matchs and 1 national league div 1 final, which resulted in 6 wins and 3 draws for Meath in 5 years v the Dubs. The most sucessful sequence of results any county has inflicted on Dublin in such a short period of time. It all culminated in the 4 game saga in 1991 that gripped the countries attention. A saga that many people thought at the time saved the GAA after soccer fever gripped the country after Italia 90. Four games that changed the face of the GAA. 91 is the year zero for modern GAA. Everything changes after 91.

4 Meath knock Dublin from their perch again 1996

When Dublin won v Meath in 95 by 10 points many people though Meath was finished. But out of nowhere another generation of Meath young footballers beat Dublin as reigning All Ireland champions. And again Meath dominate Dublin for rest of the decade winning 4 times in 6 years in thr champuonship. Winning two All Irelands.

So the question is can Meath do another football miracle again. Knock Dublon from their perch and become the dominant force in leinster football again. The simple answer is: It's highly unlikely at the moment

Dublin have gone up another level. But Meath have been in worst places eg 1947 or 86. And they rose from the dead. It's unlikely though , there is no evidence to say Meath will knock Dublin from.their perch again. Dublin are to dominat.. Meath are to weak. But if they don't the next Meath generation of players will try in the 2020s and if they don't the next generation will try in 2030s and on and on we go. Because the one thing that has driven Meath football for 70 or 80 years is not just to beat Dublin but, to knock them from their perch.

Colm O Rourke said beating Dublin was bigger then winning an All Ireland final. Mick Lyons said he was willing to put his life on the line when he played Dublin.

In 1964 before the leinster final. The three Quinn brothers from kilbride where facing Dublin in the leinster final.

But days before the final their father was on his deathbed. They didn't feel it was right to play in the leinster final with the father so sick. But their father on his deathbed with not long to live told his three sons "Go up to Croke Park and beat Dublin in the leinster final" and thats what they did. All three brothers played in the leinster final and Meath won the leinster final v reigning All.Ireland champions with one Meaths finest leinster final performances ever with the three Quinn brothers to the fore.

Stoner
Its not comparing Apples and oranges.
Donegal have played in 3 finals Meath in 15 finals. Meath are the joint 4th most sucessful county. Donegal are the 15th most sucessful county. Donegal did not win their first Ulster title til the early 1970s. Meath won it's first leinster title in 1896.
Limerick have a 100% record in finals but they haven't won a final since 1896.
I don't think your % are not a true barometer of sucess. I think your being very harsh on hugely sucessful county and ignoring 90 % of other counties.

While you cannot expect to place Meath right along with Dublin for 130 years and expect them to go toe to with them year in and out. After Kerry and Dublin in the last 70 years Meath have been the most successful county.
Meath Kerry Dublin and Cork have been the most consistent counties in the last 70 or 80 years

Kerry won in every decade . Dublin won in every decade but the 00s.
Cork won 50s 70s 80s 90s and 00s
Meath won in 40s 50s 60s 80s and 90s
Donegal won in 90s and this decade
While Tyrone just in the noughties
Galway and Down won in the 60s and 90s
Offaly in the 70s and 80s.
Meath have been more consistent over a longer period.

I showed the periods of sucess over Dublin. Because they are unique. Look at my stats on teams beating Dublin in leinster championship. Meath period of sucess over Dublin are outstanding compared to other leinster counties. Kildare have only beaten dubs twice in 45 years. Offaly haven't won v dubs in 35 years. Meath have 10 victories and 5 draws in 35 years. Kildare and Offaly are 3rd and 4th most sucessful counties in leinster.
If compare both to Dublin record it is poor. As I said Meath and Down have overachieved more then any other counties in Ireland after Kerry. With their resources and stature in Irish society.


Of course Dublin have a much better record v Meath . With all their resources and advantages. But take out kerry and Dublin Meath record of sucess is second to none .
Two other interesting Meath stats
Meath have only lost 1 replay in the last 30 years eg Dublin 07.
Meath have only lost 4 replays in 130 years of football. Meath are replay specialist.
Meath have played 14 semi final v Ulster teams. Meath have 14 victories v Ulster teams in All Ireland semi finals.