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The Greatest Teams Ever Debate (Dublin - The Greatest Team Ever?)

Sonny678

Firstly Congratulations to the Dubs. Dublin are the team of the decade. One of the All time great teams. Their achievements will go down in the history books. They are a credit to their county and clubs. This is a golden era for Dublin football.

However there those seem to be allot of people trying to rewrite history and downplay Kerrys 75 to 86 achievements. In order to prove Dublin are the best. I think allot of supporters who started following the game in the last 10 or 15 years are pushing this idea that Dublin are the greatest. They probaly dont know the achievements of Down or past Cavan teams. And never heard of Downs Sean O Neill or Cavans Higgins.

However the facts do not back this up. By saying the facts is not downgrading Dublins wins. They have achieved greatness. But facts are facts.
1 Kerry team of 70s and 80s. Did three great things 1 Win All.Ireland in 1975 with one of the youngest teams ever to win Sam ? by beating one of the greatest teams ever..2 They won a 4 in a row between 78 to 81. 3 They won 3 in a row 84 85 86.

They also had some of the greatest players of all time playing in their chosen positions. This Dublin team have one player playing that could be said to be the best ever in his position. Eg Stephen Cluxton is the greatest goalkeeper ever. Kerry had Jack O Se the greatest midfielder ever and possibly the greatest footballer ever. They had Pat Spillane the greatest number 12 in the history of the game . And Mickey Sheedy the greatest number 15 in the history of the game. They also had Paudi O Se possibly the greatest number 5 ever. While John O Keefe Ogie Moran Ger Power John Egan Bomber Liston are some of the greatest players of the modern era.

Kerry had to face tougher opposition then Dublin. Kerry had to beat one of the greatest teams ever, the Dublin team 74 -77. This Dublin have not faced an All time great team. That is a fact. Also every year Kerry faced an excellent Cork team who were a top Division 1 team and where regularly in the top 3 in country. Dublin have not had to face top Division 1 team in their provience since the early noughties. Also in ther 70s you had very good Meath and Armagh teams.

In the west you had a brillant Roscomon team ,one of the greatst teams to come west of the Shannon in the last 50 years. A brillant defence backboned by the Great Harry Keegan and at midfield one of the greatest talent to ever cross the Shannon , the late great Dermot Earley senior. That Roscomon team won 5 Connachts and Roscommons first league and gave the greatest team ever one of their toughest finals. You also had a brillant Offaly team led by the most naturally talented footballer ever, Matt Connor. Offaly 82 was a brillant team. In the mid 80s Tyrone and Monaghan had two excellent teams. Which in any other era would have won an All Ireland. The Monaghan team 85 is Monaghans greatest team ever. And the Tyrone 84- 86 was up to that point Tyrone greatst team ever led by warriors like Donaghy John Lynch Eugene McKenna and Frank McGuigan. That team was a much superior outfit to the current Tyrone team. Would any current footballer be as brillant as the great Frank McGuigan.

In comparison Dublin have been great but so many counties are hitting record low levels.

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The Talking Bread

Stoner wrote: »

You've made some interesting points, they will be very popular with some here, some flutes too.

Overall I agree with your assessment of Leinster.
I'll go one step further and be even more unpopular.

When Dublin and Mayo dipped the other counties picked up provincial titles and didn't get over the line.
Westmeath, Offaly, Kildare, Laois.

They all needed both Dublin and Meath to be relatively poor at the same time to win a provincial title after 96.

There is a big difference between Kildare 97-01 (02) and the likes of Offaly's, Laois' and Westmeath's fortunes in the noughties. And using Dublin's "dip" as a measurement of how good/average they were is a bit insulting.

I mean, people are talking about Galway 98 to 01 being one of the best teams over the decades and Kildare lost to them by a few points having beat 2 more of these so called "greatest teams" along the way in Meath and Kerry

manofwisdom

Sonny678 wrote: »

No doubt Donegal under McGuiness were sight to behold. I just think 92 team being the first was better. Donegal winning in 92 would be similar to Sligo winning in 2022. .

Donegal won U21 All Irelands in 1982, 1987 A. Molloy, D. Reid, M. McHugh, C. Mulgrew, J. McMullan,J.J. Doherty, P. Hegarty,B. McGowan, M. Boyle came from those U21 winning teams and Donegal seniors won Ulster in 1990. I don't see the similarities with Sligo there.

Good thread very informative. The facts are here and while a great team the current Dublin team are not the greatest team ever.

Stoner

The Talking Bread wrote:

There is a big difference between Kildare 97-01 (02) and the likes of Offaly's, Laois' and Westmeath's fortunes in the noughties. And using Dublin's "dip" as a measurement of how good they were is a bit insulting.

Fair enough.
Bit Dublin were not great then, and none of the teams I mentioned went on to win the AI

downthemiddle

manofwisdom wrote: »

Donegal won U21 All Irelands in 1982, 1987 A. Molloy, D. Reid, M. McHugh, C. Mulgrew, J. McMullan,J.J. Doherty, P. Hegarty,B. McGowan, M. Boyle came from those U21 winning teams and Donegal seniors won Ulster in 1990. I don't see the similarities with Sligo there.

Good thread very informative. The facts are here and while a great team the current Dublin team are not the greatest team ever.

Those teams also contained Matt Gallagher, Paul Carr, Sylvester Maguire, John Cunningham, Barry Cunningham and Tommy Ryan from the 92 squad.

Sonny678

Stoner
I agree with what you say. But Kerry 2014 is still the poorest kerry team to win an All Ireland ever along with 97 team. The 00s kerry team , Kerry team of 70s and 80s, kerry team of the double 69 to 70, kerry team of 60 -65, kerry team of 58 and Kerry teams of the 30s and 40s were all better then 2014 team. 2014 team would a great team in any other county. But in a county like kerry 2014 is one of the weakest of the 37 All Irelands have kerry won.

They are only kerry teams that did not win a second All Ireland. ALso they lost to Dublin 5 times in row in the championship. For a county like kerry who only lost twice to Dublin (76 77) between 1944 and 2011 , that is poor for a Kerry team

Donegal 2012 was better then 87 88. Well Lacey was brillant centre back. One of the best I have seen. But the rest of defenders wouldn't have touched O Malley O Connell Lyons. McEntee and Hayes was stronger partnership then Gallagher and midfield. Yes Mcfadden and Murphy are top class forward. Murphy is special talent. A captain at 21 is sign of greatness.

But Sorry O Rourke Stafford Flynn the best full forward line of the last 35 years and one of the best ever. Only Egan Liston and Sheedy were better. Where on a different level.

I cannot see how a Donegal team that played in 2 finals is better then a Meath team that played in 5 including 1 replay. Meath had to play Cork greatest team. A Cork team that found it near impossible to beat Meath in game after game. A team in 5 years between 86 to 91 played Dublin 9 times and was defeated 1 time. The greatest record any team has had v Dublin ever. And we still haven't mentioned 91. How Donegal 12 is better then Meath 87 88. Is a mystery. At their peak in 88 in a league final against the third best team in the country Dublin they won a national league div 1 final with 14 men for all the game by 9 points. Beat that.

And to say Donegal 12 was better then Meath 96 99. I think that does not ring true.

Meath 96 was the youngest team to win Sam ever along with Kerry 75. Came from.nowwhere to win Sam..Carlow were in many people eyes in 96 favs to beat Meath in the first round of the championship ship. Meath including replays played in 4 All Ireland finals winning 2. Donegal play in 2 finals winning 1.

Fay O Connell were better defenders then Donegal had. McDermont was better then Gallagher.

But your Murphy point is completely wrong. Meath hadn't player like Michael Murphy in 96 99. Meaths forward line was Dowd Giles Geraghty Kelly Reilly Murphy.
Gerathy was the best wing forward in Ireland in 96 and best full forward in Ireland in 99. He also won all star at wing back in 1994. Diarmaid Connolly would be a poor man's Graham Geraghty. Would Gerathy not be as good as Michael Murphy.

What about Trevor Giles 2 time footballer of the year footballer of the year at 21. Between 96 and 99 Giles and Michael Donnellan where the two best footballers in Ireland. Along with Blaney and B McGuigan Giles is the best player maker of last 40 years. And what about Ollie Murphy was he as good as Michael Murphy. Ollie Murphy was the best corner forward in Ireland between 99 and 01. At his peak Ollie was unmarkable.

Ok maybe Listen Donegal night have had better defence and midfield and that could be questionable but Meath forward in the late 90s when it was on fire it blew teams with breadtaking champagne football.Meath had a much better forwards lines.

For example performance like Tyrone 96 Dublin 97 and 99. Offaly been beaten by 15 and 22 points in 98 and 99. The best Offaly team of the last 30 years. Offaly were the reigning leinster champions and national league div 1 champions in 98 (Offaly s first and only league title) when Meath hammered them.

Kildare 97 second game the game of decade. Another Meath exhibition of football. And of course beating a Kerry team of Maurice Fitzgerald Seamus Moyihan Dara O Se Tomas O Se Dara O Cinnede Mike Frank Russell in 01. The reigning champions by 15 points in 2001. Kerrys worst defeat ever in the championship. When Donegal team 2012 beat All Ireland winning Kerry team by 15 points playing champagne football in an All Ireland semi final then and only then could they be counted better then a 2 time All Ireland winning Meath team 96 99.

Sonny678

manofwisdom wrote:

Donegal won U21 All Irelands in 1982, 1987 A. Molloy, D. Reid, M. McHugh, C. Mulgrew, J. McMullan,J.J. Doherty, P. Hegarty,B. McGowan, M. Boyle came from those U21 winning teams and Donegal seniors won Ulster in 1990. I don't see the similarities with Sligo there.

Yep I forgot that underage sucess..Apologies my mistake.
. Similarities with Sligo prior to 92 Donegal had very few titles . Only won first Ulster title in early 70s and second 1 in 83 and third in 1990. Donegal in the last 25 years have become a top GAA county. A football superpower. Before 92 for alot of Donegal history the county would have been more a Division 3 team. That's the similarity to Donegal and Sligo I mean.. I hope no offence is taken with that. Have family in Sligo and Donegal lovely charming people.

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

And to say Donegal 12 was better then Meath 96 99. I think that does not ring true.

I'm not buying into this talk about "if the old team had the facilities of the current team etc"

For example I couldn't see jimmy keavney training the way the top guys do now

I think if that Meath team met that Donegal team each at their peak, I'd say Donegal would win with superior strength and conditioning. They were the most tenaious team I've ever seen and I couldn't see a forward of the 1990s getting much from them. I could however see Murphy at 14 in 2012 forum doing better against Lyons than Stafford on McGee with Durkan behind him. I understand how highly people in Meath hold Lyons, but he never marked anyone that size / strong with that engine.

Keepers are a lot better now too, possibly the most improved position.

Again I did say over all Meath were a better team and as you know I've put that team up on par with the greats in the past. I'm just adding that Donegal were a great team, noted for a very short period of time, it was unsustainable in a way.

I understand that outside of the Donegal forum not many would agree with me.

But something about Donegal did have Meath ring about yo it, Lacey and McHugh running at you dangerously like way Meath did, a kind of never say die attitude, also not widely liked, great tactical manager, even the same poxy colours !!!

For me that system and effort that Donegal put in for those couple of years has most likely not been seen before and hasn't been replicated since, possibly because it was too draining.

You have to note too how poor Kerry were from 1990 to 1996. People talk about how good they have been for 30 years but they were off the radar then.

Again on a bigger scale, a lot of other teams snaked in for a win (Dublin, Meath) or their first win in that period, Donegal, Derry nearly Tyrone all while Cork were keeping a poor Kerry team under wraps.

Sonny678

Stoner wrote:

You've made some interesting points, they will be very popular with some here, some flutes too.

Stoner wrote:

Overall I agree with your assessment of Leinster. I'll go one step further and be even more unpopular.

Stoner wrote:

When Dublin and Mayo dipped the other counties picked up provincial titles and didn't get over the line. Westmeath, Offaly, Kildare, Laois.

Stoner wrote:

They all needed both Dublin and Meath to be relatively poor at the same time to win a provincial title after 96.

Stoner
I have to disagree again
Kildare 98 -2000 were an excellent team..Best Kildare team of the last 90 years. A brillant defence of Dalton Lacey Ryan and Rainbow with Earley Lynch and McCreery in midfield. Kildare 98 defeated three All Ireland champions Dublin 95, Meath 96 and Kerry 97. They had one hand in the cup in 98. Where the best team in the first half in the final. But Donnellan and Galway ran riot in the second half. Their victory over Dublin in 2000 was one of the greatest leinster final comebacks ever. 2000 win is Kildare only victory over Dublin in a leinster final in 90 years. If Kildare had one quality forward they would have Sam in this period. Along with Roscomon late 70s and the current Mayo team Kildare 98 to 2000 could be one the best teams not to win an All.Ireland in thr last 50 years.

2 Offaly won their only leinster title in 30 years with champagne football in 97. They also won their first and only national league div 1 title in 98. The full forward line of Peter Brady Roy Malone Vinny Caffley was one of the best full forward lines in the country in the late 90s. They also knocked reigning All Ireland champions Meath out of the championship twice frist in 97 and second time in 2000

3 Westmeath 2003 were very good team. Meath played a few times at the time. And Westmeath at the time played a lovely brand of open attacking football. They were divsion 1 team in 03 04. Beaten Dublin well in 03. And their first win ever under Paudi was one of the GAA sucess stories of the time

4 Laois in 2004 played some brillant football. The display in 2004 final v kildare by their forwards is one of the best forward displays I ever saw in leinster final ever. They had a top class forward line of Fitzgerald Beano McDonald's Parkinson Munnelly. But probaly needed few more warriors in defence to win an All Ireland. But they did have the forwards to win an All Ireland.

Also Dublin were weak. I don't buy that. Dublin are never weak. Since 1974 Dublin every year have been in top 5 or 6 teams in country. In 2002 they could have won Sam. They were on fire throughout the championship. Ray Cosgrove was hitting massive scores. And only where defeated by Armagh in the semi final when Cosgrove hit a free against the bar to equalise the game with the last kick of game. Lyons teams seem to make great impact in first year Offaly 97 and Dublin 2002. But after the first season Tommy Lyons teams fade badly. I think Dublin had good players in the mid 00s but not a great manager.

Meath Yep by mid 00s the 90s team was gone and Boylan was on his way to retirement. Meath were in transition until Coyle kick started a new Meath team 07 to 10.

blanch152

Sonny678 wrote: »

To the question asked above regarding the last good performance in a final below are

Answers below All good performances and some even better
Tyrone in 2003 2005 and 2008 finals
Kerry in 2004 and 2006 final
Kerry in 2007 final
Galway in 2001 final
Meath in 1999 final
Galway in 1998 final
Down in 1994 final
Donegal in 1992 final
Meath in 1987 final
Kerry in 84 and 85 final
Kerry in 81 final
Kerry in 78 and 79 final
Dublin in 76 and 77 final
Kerry in 75 final
Cork in 73 final
Offaly in 72 final
Kerry in 70 final
Down in 68 final
Galway in 64 and 66 final
Down in 1960 final
Dublin in 1958 final
Kerry in 1955 final
Meath in 1954 final
Mayo in 1951 final
Meath in 1949 final
Cavan in 1947 and 1948 final

All best performances in finals after World War 2

Tyrone 2003 - 5 points from play!!! FIVE points, and that is a good performance???
2005 - 1-12 from play
2008 - 1-13 from play

Kerry 2004 - 1-13 from play
2006 - 4-13 from play (now that's a good score)

Galway 2001 - 17 points in total!

Look, I know you don't rate this Dublin team, but please don't tell me 5 points from play by Tyrone in 2003 constitutes a good performance in an All-Ireland final.

Dublin got 1-13 from play this year, more than some of your great performances and up there with the rest.

blanch152

Sonny678 wrote: »

Stoner
I agree with what you say. But Kerry 2014 is still the poorest kerry team to win an All Ireland ever along with 97 team. The 00s kerry team , Kerry team of 70s and 80s, kerry team of the double 69 to 70, kerry team of 60 -65, kerry team of 58 and Kerry teams of the 30s and 40s were all better then 2014 team. 2014 team would a great team in any other county. But in a county like kerry 2014 is one of the weakest of the 37 All Irelands have kerry won.

They are only kerry teams that did not win a second All Ireland. ALso they lost to Dublin 5 times in row in the championship. For a county like kerry who only lost twice to Dublin (76 77) between 1944 and 2011 , that is poor for a Kerry team

.

I see the narrative here, if the Kerry 2014 team is poor, then the Dublin team that beat them 5 times in a row is no great shakes.

On the other hand, if that Kerry team is at the level of a normal Kerry team, then this Dublin team is something very exceptional having beaten the Kerry team five teams in a row.

A question, if that Kerry team (and the Kerry teams of this decade) are so so poor, how come Cork haven't won Munster a few more times?

Sonny678

Stoner wrote:

I think if that Meath team met that Donegal team each at their peak, I'd say Donegal would win with superior strength and conditioning. They were the most tenaious team I've ever seen and I couldn't see a forward of the 1990s getting much from them. I could however see Murphy at 14 in 2012 forum doing better against Lyons than Stafford on McGee with Durkan behind him. I understand how highly people in Meath hold Lyons, but he never marked anyone that size / strong with that engine.

Stoner wrote:

Again on a bigger scale, a lot of other teams snaked in for a win (Dublin, Meath) or their first win in that period, Donegal, Derry nearly Tyrone all while Cork were keeping a poor Kerry team under wraps.

I think the fitness argument is baloney. So in ten years time teams will be better then now because they will be fitter. And in 20 or 30 years time teams will be more better as team get fitter and ftlter as sport science improves.

You can make the worst footballer in Ireland superfit. But you cannot turn the fittest person in Ireland into top player if they don't have football skill or talent.

Anyone can be very fit if they are healthy and determined enough. But to be a great footballer you need to have a god given gift of skill, talent and temperament. Natural football ability cannot be trained into a person by fitness. By being superfit. To kick a ball 50 or 60 metres over the bar or score a goal or use vision to pick out a pass. All the above depend on natural ability , God given ability.

So if Sean Purcell the master was around today and could avail of the modern fitness techniques would he be an all star of course he would. Fitness is easy to obtain. Football skill , talent, ability and temperament you either have that or you don't

When people talk about Meath 87 they always bring up Lyons. But never O Malley or O Connell two of the great defenders of all time. Both players would have excelled in todays foot ball. Liam Hayes another terrific athlete would have excelled. So would habe Bernard Flynn.

And Brian Stafford would stil also one of the greatest free taker ever. You need guile and temperament to be a great freetaker. Not to be able to take part in 20 trialtons a year. We live in a time where fitness is everything. How fit you are is how great you are. We are obsessed with fitness. When judging a great player skill and mindset temperament are the real difference. Anyone can get fit.

Kerry weren't strong but Cork Derry Meath Donegal had their greatest teams ever. Dublin also had very good team. While Down had one of the best teams to ever come our of Ulster. It was not a bad era in football. To say it was would be wrong. You also had good Laois Leitrim Clare Roscomon Mayo Tyrone teams in that period also.

Your right Donegal and Meath were similar teams..actually all the Ulster teams of Donegal Tyrone Armagh where similar to Meath. While Meath played a more kick and catch game and the above where more short passing. The characteristics of Ulster teams and Meath teams are very similar. I always thought the Meath of 80s and 90s had a big influence on Ulster football. That Donegal Tyrone and Armagh where the true heirs of Meath football. The same way Meath were the true heirs of Offaly football.
Offaly teams from.the 70s and 80s, Meath teams of 80s and 90s, Donegal, Armagh and Tyrone teams of the 00s and this decade where all rural awkward country men teams.

Who took on the big superpowers. All got a bad name becuase they had the audacity skill talent and bravery to take on the Dublins and Kerrys and Corks of this world.

So while Meath are not popular in Ulster..there are definate traits in common with both Ulster and Meath football.

Boylan was the first to bring half forwards back to defend with Gerathy and Giles
. Gerathy and Giles both were half backs in alot of their club career . Both where brought back to help out our defence in 96. The beginning of blanket defence began in 1996 with Meath.

Sonny678

Blanch 15522

Tyrone v Armagh was an incredibly intense final. Where two neighbouring counties went to war. But yes I made mistake I named 50 finals and I shouldn't have left 03 in. My mistake . Well done you. 03 shouldn't have been put on the list but when going through 80 years of finals in your head in five mins your going to get 1 or 2 wrong.
But one thing I haven't got wrong is Dublin and All Ireland finals
Still doesn't change Dublin haven't played a great performance in the last 12 finals. You don't seem to see that.

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

A team in 5 years between 86 to 91 played Dublin 9 times and was defeated 1 time. The greatest record any team has had v Dublin ever

Good man Sonny

But look at it this way forget what appears to be 8 to 1 ratio in your figures.
Take off three draws and it's 5 to 1, add a year on to either end and it 5 to 3, add 2 years on to either end and it's 5 to 5 etc.

So between 1983 and 1995 Dublin won the Leinster championship 7 times to Meath's 5 (I hope that's right !)

I've heard you mention that Meath have the best record against Dublin, but that's only applies to 11 counties.
It's unfair to the rest. Dublin have also beaten Meath more than any other county. Dublin have over twice as many Leinster championships than Meath. I'd say it's very likely that no team has beaten Meath more in championship football than Dublin.

I think Dublin have 57 LFCs and meath definitely have 21

Meath have kicked on to win the AI final 7 times (33%)
Dublin have kicked on to win the final 27 times (47%)

Donegal, Kerry, Down have all beaten Dublin in more all Ireland finals than Meath, the structure of the championship creates the conditions for some fairly impressive stats, but they are not that great when you dig into them.

I'm just firing some numbers back Sonny it's a good thread, didn't think it would be. Thanks again for your contribution. I hope I'm reasonably accurate.

When Meath got to AI finals they won about 43% (7 AIs) of them

Kerry are at about 62% (37 AIs) and Dublin are at 67% (27 AIs)
I think these are about right but it shows how close Dublin and Kerry are on that winning percentage compared to Meath.

So to counter your argument about Dublin not winning All Ireland's by the margins that Meath do, historically Dublin have been more likely to win a final than Meath, a 50 % improvement on Meaths win to loss percentage in finals against all, from the beginning of the championship as we know it.

I know it's a small number but Donegal are at 66% right between Kerry and Dublin, and again like Kerry and Dublin on average more likely to win a final than Meath once there

I'm tempted to try Mayo, but it's a bit raw.

Ok

Mayo have won about 19 % of the finals they have been in 3 from 16

All excluding draws.
Again I hope I was checking be the right sources and remembered correctly.

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

Stoner I have to disagree again Kildare 98 -2000 were an excellent team..Best Kildare team of the last 90 years. A brillant defence of Dalton Lacey Ryan and Rainbow with Earley Lynch and McCreery in midfield. Kildare 98 defeated three All Ireland champions Dublin 95, Meath 96 and Kerry 97. They had one hand in the cup in 98. Where the best team in the first half in the final. But Donnellan and Galway ran riot in the second half.

Fair point, I withdrew that one , but Laois Offaly and Westmeath stand. None won the AI though Sonny

You can't include Dublins 1995 team as relevant though, they stopped at that , sure they lost against meath by 8 or 10 points the next year they were relatively poor for years after that.

Sonny678

blanch152 wrote:

I see the narrative here, if the Kerry 2014 team is poor, then the Dublin team that beat them 5 times in a row is no great shakes.

blanch152 wrote:

On the other hand, if that Kerry team is at the level of a normal Kerry team, then this Dublin team is something very exceptional having beaten the Kerry team five teams in a row.

blanch152 wrote:

A question, if that Kerry team (and the Kerry teams of this decade) are so so poor, how come Cork haven't won Munster a few more times?

Kerry 2014 poor is not because of Dublin record it's because they are the only kerry team in the last 100 years to not win two All Irelands . They are not considered a great Kerry teams. These are great teams from Kerry

00s Kerry team won 5 All Irelands
70 and 80 kerry team win 8 All Irelands
69 70 Kerry do the double with Mick O Connell Dwyer
They are great Kerry teams
Then you have great Kerry teams in the 40s and 50s and
And 4 in row record breaking kerry team from 29 to 32.

It's about winning lots and lots of All.Irelands with lots and lots of great players. Which kerry do regularly. It their genius calling card.

2014 team does not compare to a 8 in row 80s team , a 5 Sam's in 00s, a double in 6os or 4 in a row in 30s. Simple as.

Why Cork haven't won Munster few times . You might have not noticed but Cork are at their lowest since the 1950s. Cork are now div 2 team. They were beaten by Tipp last year. The last time that happened was the fifties.

Cork have talent. But something is wrong in Cork football. For the first time in living memory in the last few year's Cork are not a divsion 1 team a top 5 or 6 team. Cork are always strong . But since 2010 Cork have been piss poor.

How many finals have they won. Semi finals have they reached. They won a few leagues but once Colohan left Cork football has slipped every year to where it is now, a new low.

There is lack of confidence and belief in Cork football. Have you not seen them play in recent years. Kerry since the bad loses in the 00s have Cork in a mental vice grip. Cork are firmly under the toe of Kerry this decade. They have made one bad manager choice after another. Do you remeber Cubert. Do you remeber Healy . Me neither. They should have given John Cleary but they fecked up..does that answer your question.

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

I think the fitness argument is baloney. So in ten years time teams will be better then now because they will be fitter. And in 20 or 30 years time teams will be more better as team get fitter and ftlter as sport science improves.

The more advanced team would win imo

Plus you are disregarding my other points like attitude, Donegal 2011, 2012 under McGuinness were the most focused team I've ever seen
And the point about goalkeepers the lads from the 70/80s wouldn't come near Clarke, Cluxton etc.

And not all players will train.
McNelis in Donegal, Clarke in Armagh have all had issues training

Look at how difficult it was to get a shot off under pressure in the recent final.

Kevin Heffernan had to follow Joe McNally around to keep him out of pubs. That attitude sees you out the door now, no room for a skilful chubby now , you'd be out the door.

You look at the Kerry's golden years and the Dubs equivalent videos, some of the football was rubbish, the Kerry lads will tell you the same thing. Dublin and Kerry beating teams of fat larrys left right and centre.

Sonny678

Stoner

you can make stats say anything with %.

Leinster teams record v Dublin in leinster championship

Kildare have only beaten Dublin twice in 45 years

Offaly have not beaten Dublin in 35 years.

Laois have beaten Dublin once in 35 years

Louth haven't not beaten Dublin in 40 years

Westmeath have beaten Dublin twice in 130 years

Wexford have not beaten Dublin in 70 years

Wicklow have not beaten Dublin in 70 years their only victory

Carlow have not beaten Dublin in nearly 80 years

Longford have not beaten Dublin in nearly 50 years

Kilkenny have never beaten Dublin

Meath in the last 35 years have beaten Dublin 10 times and drawn 5 times in the leinster championship.
(A bit of homework for you Stoner what are teams % against Dublin in leinster in the 40 years.)

Anyway so Meath have beaten Dublin more then the whole of the rest of the province put together. Forgetting your % would you not say that is not bad going
Remeber Meath have beaten Dublin 10 times and drawn 5 times in the last 35 years in leinster

Let's look other counties record v Dublin records
Galway have not beaten Dublin championship in over 90 years . You have to go back to the 1920s when Galway last beat Dublin in the championship.
Mayo two wins v Dublin in 12 and o6 are the only defeats by Connacht v Dublin in over 70 years.

Dublin simply put are the hardest team to beat in gaelic football. Playing Dublin in a packed house is the closest thing to an All Ireland final.

Yes Dublin have beaten Meath allot and Meath have beaten Dublin allot it called a rivalry that's what rivals do. But no team in leinster comes close to Meath record v Dublin or in the country. Forget %

In summary
Record leinster teams v Dublin
In the last 35 years
1 Meath have defeated Dublin 10 times and drawn 5 times.
2 Kildare have two wins
3 Westmeath Laois Offaly have 1 win each and that's it.
So in the last 35 years Meath have won 10 match and 5 draws
The rest of the province( Offaly Westmeath Kildare Louth Laois Longford Carlow Wexford ) have had 5 wins no draws

Stoner surely you would have to admit Meath have an outstanding record v Dublin.

davedanon

Sonny678 wrote: »

Stoner

It's about titles and winning matchs.

And yet you quibble with Dublin's performances in those title-winning matches...

Sonny678

Again nitpicking what I say. I write a long rambling message. And Dave takes out magnifying glass and look for some inaccuracies or errors.
It's either a one line smart comment or nit picking one or two little errors in an essay
Still not one Dublin contributer has responded to my point that Dublins last great performance in a final was 1977. 12 finals since and counting.

davedanon

Sonny678 wrote: »

Again nitpicking what I say. I write a long rambling message. And Dave takes out magnifying glass and look for some inaccuracies or errors.
It's either a one line smart comment or nit picking one or two little errors in an essay
Still not one Dublin contributer has responded to my point that Dublins last great performance in a final was 1977. 12 finals since and counting.

It's not nitpicking. It's your selective biases. Is it about winning matches and titles, or is it about playing wonderfully? you seem to keep changing your mind, depending on which county you're talking about.

It's worth pointing out to you, and anyone else, that Dublin don't give a rat's ass about entertaining supporters: their own, or anyone else's. All they care about is winning. A quality much prized, but one which you seem determined to belittle in Dublin's case.

The Talking Bread

Sonny678 wrote: »

Again nitpicking what I say. I write a long rambling message. And Dave takes out magnifying glass and look for some inaccuracies or errors.
It's either a one line smart comment or nit picking one or two little errors in an essay
Still not one Dublin contributer has responded to my point that Dublins last great performance in a final was 1977. 12 finals since and counting.

His reply sums up your hypocrisy re these things to be honest. Stats and results as excellent and a testament to your knowledge of the history of the game as they are contained in long, self admitting "rambling messages" doesn't make your argument always stronger.

I daren't ask what your qualitative measurement of "performing great" in a final that you win against the likes of Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone (1995) is, but I am sure you will enlighten us.

Again, I am not a Dublin fan, but even as a Kildare fan with Mayo roots, I find your reluctance to accept any POV that disregards your own opinion re this Dublin team a clear reason as to why "not one Dublin contributer has responded to (your) point that Dublins last great performance in a final was 1977. 12 finals since and counting"

Why you are even bracketing successful Dublin teams 20/30 years ago with one that just won an Ireland 5 days ago in the same context makes no sense.

Even the Dublin team that won the All Ireland in '11 is relatively incomparable in setup/approach than that of this current team.

There is so many different variables in current era GAA teams to ten/fifteen years ago, (fitness standard, tactics, rules, freedom of forwards, role of midfielders role of goalkeepers, dead ball restarts, refereeing etc) not to mention 30 years ago that it is almost impossible to measure one against the other in so many aspects.

The game has completely evolved so much that as well as having natural talent the level of fitness, mentality, strength, squad depth and tactical excellence at times, would allow this Dublin team, on the balance of probabilities, to beat most All Ireland winning teams in the last 30 years.

I would be confident of that I don't see how that is disputable.

Sonny678

Stoner you talk about % leinster wins Dublin is better then Meath. That's a fact. But Meath still are the second most successful county in leinster and joint fourth most successful county in the country.

People talk about Dublins advantages they have . Which they do. But if you look at the last 70 or 80 years even though Dublin have all these advantages Meath have gone toe to toe Dublin up to this decade.

In the last 70 years in leinster leaving out this decade

Dublin have 9 All Irelands
Meath have 7 All Irelands
Offaly have 3 All Irelands
Louth have 1 All Ireland
That's all the All Ireland winners in leinster up to 2011

Meath have won nearly twice as much All Ireland then the rest of leinster put together. (Leaving out Dublin).

Anyway If look at gaelic football overall Meath and Down are the two counties that have greatly overachieved. Look at Down 5 All Irelands to Armagh 1. Both similar counties geographically but there is a serious difference in All Ireland wins

Look at the area in Ireland where Meath comes from . Leaving Dublin to one side Meath are in a strong football area with great football counties but who have had little sucess for decades.

Look at Kildare and Meath. Very similar landscapes, towns and accents. There's not to much difference between the counties. But in football Meath have played in 15 senior finals in the last 90 years. Kildare have played in 1 senior final in 90 years. Meath have 7 National league divsion 1 titles . Kildare have never won a national league divsion 1 title. Meath have 3 minor titles.kildare have never won a minor title.

I don't mean to put down Kildare. Great football county great supporters and a great tradition. But the difference between Meath and Kildare sucess is startling.

(In terms of league titles only kerry Mayo Dublin and Cork have more titles then Meaths 7 div 1 league titles.
League titles are hard won. And the spread of wins is not very wide. The top counties win so many of the league titles. So many counties have only won their first and only title recently eg Laois 1 title in 85 Offaly 1 title in 98 Donegal 1 title in 200? Armagh 1 title in 2005 or 2006 Tyrone 1 title in 2003 or 2004 also. Roscomon won their first and only title in 1978. So Meath 7 wins with a win in 30s 40s 50s 70s 80s and 90s is another sign of Meath overachieving)

If you look at the top 5 or 6 most successful counties who standa out from the top counties 1 Kerry 2 Dublin 3 Galway 4 Cork 5 Meath 6 Down.

Kerry is a football genius of county. The New Zealand Brazil of gaelic football. If you love football you have a bit of love for the Kingdom.

But look. At other top counties. It is no surprise that Dublin Cork and Galway are in the top 5. These our Irelands most famous most powerful biggest important counties in the country..
Dublin is the centre of political social economic and cultural life in the country. Galway is the centre of social economic political and cultural like in the west of Ireland . And Cork is the centre of social economic political and cultural life in Munster.

That these three world famous counties are in the top 3 is no surprise.
But Meath and Down are in thr top 5 or 6 is a surprise. But counties don't stand out. Meath is a bog standard Midlands county. There is some ancient history in the county. But it does not have the impact and power and stature that a county like Cork has.

Yet in Gaelic football terms Meath and Down are in the top counties. They have both overachieved as counties. 7 All Irelands and 5 All Irelands is a massive haul in Gaelic football terms.
You could even make the arguement that after Kerry , Meath and Down are gaelic football two great5st counties.
Up to this decade Dublin had under achieved with all its resources. They are achieving their full potential the Dubs this decade.

Cork have achieved greatness in hurling but you could also say Cork football the county with the most football clubs in Ireland has under achieved. Galway great years were from 30s to 60s. With 2 wins in half century are Galway now underachieving. But Meath and Down have overachieved

And Maybe that's both counties problem. They are now returning to the pack and their golden eras are finished..
Are Meath now the new Cavan. Are Meath and Down best days behind them.

Sonny678

The Talking Bread wrote:

The game has completely evolved so much that as well as having natural talent the level of fitness, mentality, strength, squad depth and tactical excellence at times, would allow this Dublin team, on the balance of probabilities, to beat most All Ireland winning teams in the last 30 years.

The Talking Bread wrote:

I would be confident of that I don't see how that is disputable.

My answer to that. If you read back many agreed with my comments. I would40% agreed with my comments. I'm not the only 1 person in this forum or country that is saying this at the moment. That this is not the greatst team ever.

Many GAA supporters agree with my sentiments. It's just mainstream media and ex players have a reluctance to criticise Dublin . I'm entitled to ask questions about a team been considered the greatest ever and yet never deliver an outstanding performance.

Alot of my opinions where backed up with stats and results. Responses against me have just been put downs saying teams where crap football begins in 2011.

As a Kildare man I'm sure you would like to think that football began long ago. That the kildare team of 27 28 where a great team which they were. Why is it that kildare team in every decent pub in Kildare is hanging from.the wall. Because those 15 men did great things on the field of play for your county. There would be no Kildare football without the men of 27 28. They are your finest best. 15 of the best men walk in your county.

To trivialise all.past teams and blow up all current teams does not seem right. There has to be a happy medium. But ridiculing past teams and putting down their achievements seems to be morally bankrupt in a sport sense. For all those great teams( and the great Kildare team of 1927 1928 ) included remeber them all. For all teams and players and supporters today and tomorrow are standing on the shoulder of gaints, men on past great teams who achieved great things.
Don't ignore your past because there is new shiny loud sensation in town. The past is alive and GAA has a wonderful past. Never forget that.

Sonny678

Stoner
you said that Dublin had beaten Meath % of times. But there is a story behind that %. Every provience has a story, a massive rivalry that underpins and impacts that provience through the ages. Munster have Cork and Kerry. Connacht have Mayo and Galway. In leinster that rivalry is Meath v Dublin. Allot people think Meath v Dublin rivalry began in 80s. This is wrong it began 40 years earlier in the 1940s.

The Story of leinster football in the last 70 to 80s years is a story of Meath v Dublin rivalry. There are under wonderful players and events that are important and mighty . But Meath v Dublin rivalry has caused seismic changes in the provience decade after decade.

People talk about Dublins advantage and resources but one team has gone toe to toe with Dublin up to this decade. No county has defeated Dublin , has broken Dublin and made Dublin change and evolve more then Meath over the decades . Yes Kerry and Ulster teams also have a role. But local neighbour, a local rival always has the biggest impact rather then the faraway foes.

So what is the story of leinster football. Since 40s it goes like this Stoner. Sit back it a long story. And you know my long rambling stories

Basically Dublin are the kingpins, the dominant force in leinster. Dublin have gone up a level and then Meath come from nowhere and knock Dublin from their perch. Meath now become top dogs in leinster and then Ireland and Dublin are faltering under the power of a Royal surge. Meath deline. Dublin rise again and go up another level. And Meath come again from nowhere and knock Dublin from their perch. And the cycle begins again and repeats itself again and again.

In the last 70 to 80 years Meath have knocked Dublin from their perch 5 times In the 40s 50s 60s 80s and 90s. While in the 70s they defeated Dublin in a league final and went toe to toe with Dublin for 5 years. In the noughties Meath still defeated Dublin more then any other leinster county. And this period culminated in Dublins worst defeat in leinster football in a half century in 2010 with a 5 goal hammering.

When Meath knock Dublin from their perch Meath then go on a run of victories over Dublin year after year. The one thing the Dubs can never deal with is a strong Meath team. The Dubs only true weakness is a strong All Ireland Meath winning team at its peak.

1 Meath first knock Dublin from their perch 1947

Dublin have gone up a level teams full of the best country lads working in Dublin. Meath are a divsion 3 team. Meath come from nowhere and defeat Dublin in 47. In the next few years Meath defeat Dublin 5 times in a row in the championship. The battles between Paddy O Brien and Kevin Heffernan are legendary. If you said Meath would play in 5 All Irelands in 5 years in spring 47 you would have been laughed at , but that's what happened. Meath had great battles with great Louth and Cavan teams at the time. But it was the battles with Dublin that were the making of that Meath team.

2 Meath knock Dublin from.their perch 1964

Dublin were in a very strong position in Spring 64. They had gone up a level in previous years. Instead of country lads and now under Kevin Heffernan influence, and responding to bad defeats to Meath and Louth in the late 40s and early 50s, Dublin was now an All Dublin team full of Vincent's players.

It worked for now Dublin were the dominant force in leinster and All Ireland champions in 58 and 63. Meath in the early 60s where heading to divsion 4 . Then out of nowhere back boned by the Quinn brothers Meath defeated Dublin in leinster final with Meaths greatest leinster final win v Dublin ever. Dublin were reigning All Ireland champions. Meath became the dominant force in leinster in the sixties. This Meath team led by Jack Quinn would reach 3 All Ireland finals winning 1 in 1967. And Dublin would not beat Meath for another 11 years.

(This team also became the first international rules team. For after 1967 final this Meath team went on a tour of Australia playing Auzzie Rules teams, and so beginning the whole Ireland v Australia international rules.)

3 Meath knock Dublin from their perch again 1986

Dublin were incredibly dominate in leinster in mid 80s. They had 6 in row leinsters in 70s and three more in 80s by 85. They had played in 8 All Ireland finals in 11 years between 74 and 85 . They had gone up a level again. In terms of fitness ,preparation, tactics, player ability , talent ,skill and role of manager. Meath had not won leinster title in 16 years and at the start of the decade where heading to divsion 4 after championship loses to Wexford and longford. An headline on the front of the Meath chronicle in 82 after the longford loss read "Meath football RIP".

Within 3 years of that headline appearing on the front of the Meath chronicle ,again Meath would topple Dublin in 86 leinster final. And become the dominate force in leinster and the country playing 5 All Ireland finals in 5 years .
And playing Dublin in 9 championship matchs and 1 national league div 1 final, which resulted in 6 wins and 3 draws for Meath in 5 years v the Dubs. The most sucessful sequence of results any county has inflicted on Dublin in such a short period of time. It all culminated in the 4 game saga in 1991 that gripped the countries attention. A saga that many people thought at the time saved the GAA after soccer fever gripped the country after Italia 90. Four games that changed the face of the GAA. 91 is the year zero for modern GAA. Everything changes after 91.

4 Meath knock Dublin from their perch again 1996

When Dublin won v Meath in 95 by 10 points many people though Meath was finished. But out of nowhere another generation of Meath young footballers beat Dublin as reigning All Ireland champions. And again Meath dominate Dublin for rest of the decade winning 4 times in 6 years in thr champuonship. Winning two All Irelands.

So the question is can Meath do another football miracle again. Knock Dublon from their perch and become the dominant force in leinster football again. The simple answer is: It's highly unlikely at the moment

Dublin have gone up another level. But Meath have been in worst places eg 1947 or 86. And they rose from the dead. It's unlikely though , there is no evidence to say Meath will knock Dublin from.their perch again. Dublin are to dominat.. Meath are to weak. But if they don't the next Meath generation of players will try in the 2020s and if they don't the next generation will try in 2030s and on and on we go. Because the one thing that has driven Meath football for 70 or 80 years is not just to beat Dublin but, to knock them from their perch.

Colm O Rourke said beating Dublin was bigger then winning an All Ireland final. Mick Lyons said he was willing to put his life on the line when he played Dublin.

In 1964 before the leinster final. The three Quinn brothers from kilbride where facing Dublin in the leinster final.

But days before the final their father was on his deathbed. They didn't feel it was right to play in the leinster final with the father so sick. But their father on his deathbed with not long to live told his three sons "Go up to Croke Park and beat Dublin in the leinster final" and thats what they did. All three brothers played in the leinster final and Meath won the leinster final v reigning All.Ireland champions with one Meaths finest leinster final performances ever with the three Quinn brothers to the fore.

[Deleted User]

Leitrim 94

ThunbergsAreGo

Sonny

Have you watched much of the Kerry team of the 30s?

Also interesting stats on Leinster for all the talk of no competition, Meath aside it's just the status quo for the rest of the counties.

Just like Munster has always been Kerry....... Cork..... Everyone else

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

you can make stats say anything with %.

I know as I said I was just throwing things back at you

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

In the last 70 years in leinster leaving out this decade

Sonny

As a note I agree with your comments that Dublin didn't win those finals by a lot I didn't think I had to answer it, how can someone answer that it's in black and white. You made a good point it stands up.

I gave you stats from the beginning of the championship, but in fairness you just keep picking sections of time. You dismissed stats when I did the same back to you

You've left out the last ten years in this one above
If I approached this like you have I'd just give you the last 10 years

If I did i could say that Dunlin won 5 AIs in the past 10 years compared to 0 for Meath.

I could all say that they won 5 AIs in the past 10 years compared to Meaths total 7 AIs since the championship began.

And again if you are asking people to answer you , I tried to do that.

What about the stat about Meath being the least likely of Donegal , Kerry and Dublin to win a final than Meath, of the four Meath is the only county with a negative return here so overall Meaths record in finals on a win lose basis is relatively poor. Again this is all the numbers not just a small section of time that suits a position.
But can I have your opinion on that , not an opinion about how stats are used ?

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

Stoner surely you would have to admit Meath have an outstanding record v Dublin.

I do. They have a great record alright. As you say it's a rivalry

Sonny678

Stoner
Its not comparing Apples and oranges.
Donegal have played in 3 finals Meath in 15 finals. Meath are the joint 4th most sucessful county. Donegal are the 15th most sucessful county. Donegal did not win their first Ulster title til the early 1970s. Meath won it's first leinster title in 1896.
Limerick have a 100% record in finals but they haven't won a final since 1896.
I don't think your % are not a true barometer of sucess. I think your being very harsh on hugely sucessful county and ignoring 90 % of other counties.

While you cannot expect to place Meath right along with Dublin for 130 years and expect them to go toe to with them year in and out. After Kerry and Dublin in the last 70 years Meath have been the most successful county.
Meath Kerry Dublin and Cork have been the most consistent counties in the last 70 or 80 years

Kerry won in every decade . Dublin won in every decade but the 00s.
Cork won 50s 70s 80s 90s and 00s
Meath won in 40s 50s 60s 80s and 90s
Donegal won in 90s and this decade
While Tyrone just in the noughties
Galway and Down won in the 60s and 90s
Offaly in the 70s and 80s.
Meath have been more consistent over a longer period.

I showed the periods of sucess over Dublin. Because they are unique. Look at my stats on teams beating Dublin in leinster championship. Meath period of sucess over Dublin are outstanding compared to other leinster counties. Kildare have only beaten dubs twice in 45 years. Offaly haven't won v dubs in 35 years. Meath have 10 victories and 5 draws in 35 years. Kildare and Offaly are 3rd and 4th most sucessful counties in leinster.
If compare both to Dublin record it is poor. As I said Meath and Down have overachieved more then any other counties in Ireland after Kerry. With their resources and stature in Irish society.

Of course Dublin have a much better record v Meath . With all their resources and advantages. But take out kerry and Dublin Meath record of sucess is second to none .
Two other interesting Meath stats
Meath have only lost 1 replay in the last 30 years eg Dublin 07.
Meath have only lost 4 replays in 130 years of football. Meath are replay specialist.
Meath have played 14 semi final v Ulster teams. Meath have 14 victories v Ulster teams in All Ireland semi finals.