Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 MOD NOTE POST 1*

citykat · 09-09-2017 08:46PM

^^^^+1. Just wonder how many on here were at the game? I was in the old stand and it was all Limerick.
To be calling lads a disgrace is uncalled for regardless of how they played. The blame for today imo lies with Eddie and the management. Kilkenny looked undercooked today. The touch was poor. Lads getting caught in possession. No support play. No tracking into the backs to help out when needed. No hunger. These are aspects drilled into lads in training.
The decision-making on the line was also daft. Taking Morrissey off just before half time? Was he injured? He didn't look it. Then Leahy in the second? FFS. How Donnelly stayed on longer than those two is beyond me. In fairness to him he actually came into it in the second half.
Limerick were a super team and worthy winners but they handed us an opportunity in the second half which we were ill prepared to take.
In the grand scheme of things losing today mightn't be a bad thing. There'll certainly be no swelled heads. Some of those playing can go on to play senior. They're good enough. The question is will they really want it badly enough. They'll know after today that nobody is going to stand by and hand it to them.

davidx40 · 09-09-2017 08:52PM

I think the penny might be finally dropping with a lot of people .....give out about Eddie and i have myself but we are really struggling for quality at minute .....last years senior championship the standout out player was gorta at end of his career......i thought this u21 team was over rated all year ....people on here saying cleere is going to make senior centre back , i cant ever see him making it at senior ....i think the whole thing needs a shake from county board down its gone a bit stale ....

brookville · 09-09-2017 08:52PM

blackcard wrote: »

Dissapointed but thought we could have been a bit closer at half time. Blanchfield over hit a handpass for a goal chance. Limerick hit a few frees from 90 yards. Limerick the better team but they had played tougher opposition. I would be surprised if 4 or 5 of the Kilkenny team don't make it at senior level

I'd be hopefull a few can step up granted a few of our forwards didn't do themselves justice,ryan and walsh in praticular but both are a bit inconsistent.I though leahy stated ok but faded but I wouldn't of took him off.
Our backs held up ok considering the pressure we were under.after looking at delaney today he could do a job at 3 he needs to be tried in next year's league and padraig needs to go back to the wing.
I'm still not convinced with cleere at 6 I don't think his the awnser.
The few I'd like to see called in are Darren brennan whos a very good shot stopper.
Delaney who definitely has potential.
Tommy walsh and huw lawlor both tried hard but it was upfront we struggled today we need to try get these lads bulked up we looked like kids compared to limerick today
Finally why didn't Darren mullen start?

Gentleman Off The Pitch · 09-09-2017 08:56PM

davidx40 wrote: »

I think the penny might be finally dropping with a lot of people .....give out about Eddie and i have myself but we are really struggling for quality at minute .....last years senior championship the standout out player was gorta at end of his career......i thought this u21 team was over rated all year ....people on here saying cleere is going to make senior centre back , i cant ever see him making it at senior ....i think the whole thing needs a shake from county board down its gone a bit stale ....

Was last year not the second year in a row Gorta was the best player on show during the championship?

Realt Dearg Sec · 09-09-2017 09:04PM

Road-Hog wrote: »

Just a taste for a 'success laden' county to what it's like being a 'weaker county' who rarely even get to an all Ireland....no doubt this current 'Kk rot' will be short lived will hardly stretch as long as the 'langers' one ðŸ˜€ðŸ˜€ðŸ˜€

What happened to cork after 2006 was a long time in the making, years of problems left to fester at underage, and only now 11 years later, are they even really starting to show signs of emerging out of it. Before that 2006 all IrelandsJesus they were regarded as the most well drilled and professional outfit in the history of hurling and set to dominate for years to come.

They should be an object lesson in how easily things can go south if complacency is allowed to set in, or if people start to buy in to the kind of bull**** that is written about winning teams, and how long it can take to recover.

We've had no shortage of warning signs in the past few years that there are big problems in kk hurling. I know it can sound like a knee jerk reaction straight after a loss to get too apocalyptic but the signs are all over the place. Today has all the hallmarks we've seen before:

nobody seemed able to complete a pass, there was no joined up play in evidence, lads weren't playing like a team, working for each other or playing to an identifiable plan.

Some good individual players but we seemed to have very poor first touch and control, and Lim fielding of high ball was in a different stratosphere.

Now in fairness that is a savage limerick team, but we lacked serious fight when there were chances to claw our way back in around forty five to fifty minutes in.

We had some good workrate, our lads hooked and blocked really well I thought, but mainly because they struggled to win primary possession. Lim half back line destroyed us.

You can blame individual players and they have to take some blame, and Eddie Brennan will struggle to justify how flat and uninspiring we were.

But a lot of what we've seen, the lack of first touch, the lack of a game plan, and, basically, the lack of a discernible identity, are common features of Kilkenny teams lately. I know we haven't the lads that were in the previous generation, but there's no sense that kk teams have an identity right now. It all points to deeper problems, whether in the development set up, or the club game, or maybe in the lack of flexibility in the relationship between the two. There needs to be a root and branch review of the whole system in the county to identify what is and isn't working. There's no shortage of brilliant and committed people running things at every level but somewhere along the way things aren't joining up properly. I know our country board are not likely to go down the cork "mushrooms that grow up overnight" road of just sitting back and waiting for the next bunch of Tommys, Henrys and JJs to spring into existence. In fact it's with remembering that that unbelievable generation came along right after the last time standards were seen to have been slipping and the county executive took profound remedial action to fix the set up. In the process they created the greatest team in the history of the sport, and a development system that was the model for all other counties.

washman3 · 09-09-2017 09:15PM

dzer2 wrote: »

Shane Walsh was an embarrassment to leave him on for that length was shocking.

Disgusting comment on an underage amateur player.:mad:

Did you play much yourself.??

dubcat51 · 09-09-2017 09:18PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

What happened to cork after 2006 was a long time in the making, years of problems left to fester at underage, and only now 11 years later, are they even really starting to show signs of emerging out of it. Before that 2006 all IrelandsJesus they were regarded as the most well drilled and professional outfit in the history of hurling and set to dominate for years to come.

They should be an object lesson in how easily things can go south if complacency is allowed to set in, or if people start to buy in to the kind of bull**** that is written about winning teams, and how long it can take to recover.

We've had no shortage of warning signs in the past few years that there are big problems in kk hurling. I know it can sound like a knee jerk reaction straight after a loss to get too apocalyptic but the signs are all over the place. Today has all the hallmarks we've seen before:

nobody seemed able to complete a pass, there was no joined up play in evidence, lads weren't playing like a team, working for each other or playing to an identifiable plan.

Some good individual players but we seemed to have very poor first touch and control, and Lim fielding of high ball was in a different stratosphere.

Now in fairness that is a savage limerick team, but we lacked serious fight when there were chances to claw our way back in around forty five to fifty minutes in.

We had some good workrate, our lads hooked and blocked really well I thought, but mainly because they struggled to win primary possession. Lim half back line destroyed us.

You can blame individual players and they have to take some blame, and Eddie Brennan will struggle to justify how flat and uninspiring we were.

But a lot of what we've seen, the lack of first touch, the lack of a game plan, and, basically, the lack of a discernible identity, are common features of Kilkenny teams lately. I know we haven't the lads that were in the previous generation, but there's no sense that kk teams have an identity right now. It all points to deeper problems, whether in the development set up, or the club game, or maybe in the lack of flexibility in the relationship between the two. There needs to be a root and branch review of the whole system in the county to identify what is and isn't working. There's no shortage of brilliant and committed people running things at every level but somewhere along the way things aren't joining up properly. I know our country board are not likely to go down the cork "mushrooms that grow up overnight" road of just sitting back and waiting for the next bunch of Tommys, Henrys and JJs to spring into existence. In fact it's with remembering that that unbelievable generation came along right after the last time standards were seen to have been slipping and the county executive took profound remedial action to fix the set up. In the process they created the greatest team in the history of the sport, and a development system that was the model for all other counties.

Well its not happening in camogie.u14s won A and B all ireland blirz todaybeating cork in both finals.15s and 17s both won all irelands this year.good work being done in camogie.

Realt Dearg Sec · 09-09-2017 09:35PM

Good to get some good news today anyway dubcat!

Pretty.Odd. · 09-09-2017 10:13PM

dzer2 wrote: »

Shane Walsh was an embarrassment to leave him on for that length was shocking.

Disagree. A lot of them were on par with him so I think it's disgraceful for you to single out one of them. If I remember correctly out of the 6 forwards he had scored 3 of the 4 points we had on the board at time of subbing.

Stopitwillya · 10-09-2017 12:20AM

Should eddie brennan get a third term with the under 21s? They definetly underachieved again this year considering the easy run to todays final. Will he be a contender to eventually replace cody? If things had gone well that would have seemed likely. If brennan is not in charge next who should get the job? Shefflin? Pat Hoban? Dj?

davidx40 · 10-09-2017 12:38AM

After watching match again ....we were not at races physicaly at all....blown out of it ...they were stronger team....our two big men Donnelly and Blanchfield good under ball but not very athletic or agile ....they were a big team but very mobile and pacy ....

Dionysis · 10-09-2017 07:59AM

There's a saying, insanity,: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.

Can't help but think that definition has some credance here in the discussions held on this forum over the past few months when it comes to a number of players and management.

Realt Dearg Sec · 10-09-2017 08:05AM

Dionysis wrote: »

There's a saying, insanity,: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.

Can't help but think that definition has some credance here in the discussions held on this forum over the past few months when it comes to a number of players and management.

What would you suggest?

dzer2 · 10-09-2017 08:45AM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

What would you suggest?

Stay doing the same thing for another 10 yrs:eek:

Realt Dearg Sec · 10-09-2017 08:48AM

dzer2 wrote: »

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

What would you suggest?

Stay doing the same thing for another 10 yrs:eek:

Yeah but sarcasm aside, what would you do instead?

Dionysis · 10-09-2017 08:50AM

Numerous suggestions have been made, as well as the same faults highlighted prior to games for people to say we are wrong or too critical, for them only to come to fruition during games.

One thing is for sure, kk have a serious problem with underage, we are not converting talent to the senior grades; the underage have fallen behind; the old problems of picking the favourites in clubs has come back; a lack of managers; an unwillingness to realise that the game has moved on and we are physically way behind; no divisional sides at senior grade for junior and maybe intermediate teams to make up a side; kk paying lip service to the u-21 grade to the detriment of the senior team

dzer2 · 10-09-2017 09:06AM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Yeah but sarcasm aside, what would you do instead?

We are 10 yrs humping ball into the forwards, win your own ball mentality. I remember the minor final in 08 we won it in the last minute with a goal after pumping ball after ball wide from the half back line.

In 12 it was showed our backs were not quick enough. We won the AI but in fairness the forwards (Henry) dug us out.

In 14 again it was the forwards in the replay even if Kelly did his best to beat us.

In 15 again Galway made hay for the first half and only the ref didn't send Coen off sent a message to Cody and Co. to get really physical in the second half and Galway had no answer.

Last yr Tipp had their 2008 everything they hit turned to gold.

A player doesnt become a bad player to be tossed aside after a bad game. Cody has done this time and time again. Now he is looking at these guys week in week out. If Joyce or some of the forwards are not good enough then get in others and try them.
I have said on here too many times the squads are a promotion of the coaches or in the click kids. Too many better hurlers being ignored. Teachers and the coach's coaches running the squads. These guys are not coaching at club level and are having their heads turned by lads telling them that if their kid is not on the school team or in with squads then they will only hurl with the club. I was standing on the side line when a coach took off a particular player who was playing sh1te and was told by the parent that the kid wouldn't hurl again for him if he ever took him off again.
As I have said here time and time again no way can the squad system pick up all the developing players at each age yet there is never any addition to the squads. Take a look through this thread Lads are still talking about the same lads that were on the minor team 3 yrs ago. I know at least 3 players from a club close (not my own) that are better than the few lads on that u21 panel that have never got the call. These guys are playing senior with their clubs and have developed more in that 3 yrs.

But that is from a bitter auld lad who never hit a ball in anger and doesn't contribute to the club, has a ticket for every AI and never goes to ere a game:p

Dionysis · 10-09-2017 09:15AM

Topcat32 wrote: »

Did the guy from Cork know who won minor 3 years ago and could easily won it again 2 years ago. But then again if the guy is from Cork he must know what he is talking about, I didnt see any problems with the touch of the Kilkenny team against Westmeath, what I did see was a home team of a county which had targeted the match as one of their biggest games of the year put their bodies on the line more than the Kilkenny team did, how for example he thinks Clare have a good under 21 team this year is a bit of a mystery to me.

The signs back in June and we ridicule people for highlighting them, but yesterday has been coming a long time. It's like AA, first step to recovery is to realise we have a problem.

This is not a dig against Topcat32, it's highlighting that we have seen this issue coming and no-one wants to hear that we have a massive problem.

dubcat51 · 10-09-2017 09:29AM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

What would you suggest?

Bring in jackie

Topcat32 · 10-09-2017 09:54AM

dzer2 wrote: »

We are 10 yrs humping ball into the forwards, win your own ball mentality. I remember the minor final in 08 we won it in the last minute with a goal after pumping ball after ball wide from the half back line.

In 12 it was showed our backs were not quick enough. We won the AI but in fairness the forwards (Henry) dug us out.

In 14 again it was the forwards in the replay even if Kelly did his best to beat us.

In 15 again Galway made hay for the first half and only the ref didn't send Coen off sent a message to Cody and Co. to get really physical in the second half and Galway had no answer.

Last yr Tipp had their 2008 everything they hit turned to gold.

A player doesnt become a bad player to be tossed aside after a bad game. Cody has done this time and time again. Now he is looking at these guys week in week out. If Joyce or some of the forwards are not good enough then get in others and try them.
I have said on here too many times the squads are a promotion of the coaches or in the click kids. Too many better hurlers being ignored. Teachers and the coach's coaches running the squads. These guys are not coaching at club level and are having their heads turned by lads telling them that if their kid is not on the school team or in with squads then they will only hurl with the club. I was standing on the side line when a coach took off a particular player who was playing sh1te and was told by the parent that the kid wouldn't hurl again for him if he ever took him off again.
As I have said here time and time again no way can the squad system pick up all the developing players at each age yet there is never any addition to the squads. Take a look through this thread Lads are still talking about the same lads that were on the minor team 3 yrs ago. I know at least 3 players from a club close (not my own) that are better than the few lads on that u21 panel that have never got the call. These guys are playing senior with their clubs and have developed more in that 3 yrs.

But that is from a bitter auld lad who never hit a ball in anger and doesn't contribute to the club, has a ticket for every AI and never goes to ere a game:p

Why cant you name these 3 players? Im sure that wouldnt be against the rules here, maybe your concerned that some auld lad will say something a bit stupid about them?

dubcat51 · 10-09-2017 09:59AM

Look we top minor 21 and senior all irelands roll of honour.things are not as bad as some on here portray.yes we need a few players but every team needs that.its how many of the minors and 21s that push on from here that will determine how we go at senior.also I agree with the poster that we should look outside these panels for late developers(shouldnt be to hard in a small county)finally best of luck to the kittens today.

Topcat32 · 10-09-2017 10:05AM

Dionysis wrote: »

Not so sure on Eddie Brennan. Not impressed so far on what he has done with a savagely talented U-21side.

Would think that at least 50% of this years poor display is down to player fatigue, the older experienced ones were in the last three all-irelands. And am firm on the fact as I said a number of weeks ago that an early exit might just give this team so energy back for next year.
The opportunity is now there for Cody ( leaving aside the more experienced 15 on the team) to pick a group of lads to bring back early, i.e. November and begin pushing these new/young lads, to have them right for the league. They'll need to be pushed to be able to compete with the more experienced/stronger players on other sides, but pushing them early will compensate for that. Then come the League keep playing them, and keep pushing the must win mentality in these young lads. Come championship when the older lads are back we will have options. The same needs to be done for the U-21 squad. We need to bring on the talent ( post 18 years of age) quicker, to support the U-21 and senior teams quicker, for the foreseeable future. If our U-21 team loses this year it will be down to coaching team work and lack of a physical presence, as they have the raw talent. Clare won three all-Ireland U-21s by being fitter and more physical than other teams, along with a certain level of talent granted. But as you can see now, when fitness and talent even up at senior level, there not head and shoulders above the rest as the natural ability is lacking.

Dont want to have a dig really, but savagely talented? The only reason we can lose is lack of teamwork?

No mention of a lack of skill there from what I can see.

I actually agreed with what you said back then for the record.

brookville · 10-09-2017 10:05AM

What better hurlers are out there who weren't involved yesterday?kevin farrellI,gaffney??farrell would struggle physically yesterday..john walsh and shane walsh won't win high balls,alan murphy the same but apart from that our touch was poor I don't think eddie can be blamed for morrisey fumbling balls
Taking off leahy was baffling he should of being moved around.
Scanlon seems to be way off senior
Some of our lads look way physically off yesterday but it has to be said they have much more with senior experience cian lynch is 3 years playing senior an he stood out like a sore thumb.
Overall disappointed with yesterday's performance especially from mf up where we couldn't win a thing around half foward of like to see a review of the underage set up and proven coaches installed,dj and tom mullally are 2 who should be given jobs at minor or u21

brookville · 10-09-2017 10:16AM

dubcat51 wrote: »

Look we top minor 21 and senior all irelands roll of honour.things are not as bad as some on here portray.yes we need a few players but every team needs that.its how many of the minors and 21s that push on from here that will determine how we go at senior.also I agree with the poster that we should look outside these panels for late developers(shouldnt be to hard in a small county)finally best of luck to the kittens today.

U21 doesn't guarantee anything limerick know that more that more than anyone,clare won 3 in a row but have yet to kick on after 13 but the performance yesterday was like a team playing together for the first time and as I've said here several times they have about 5 starting senior which helps.we try pick one or two from each year;tipp ,galway do the same.

dzer2 · 10-09-2017 10:30AM

Topcat32 wrote: »

Why cant you name these 3 players? Im sure that wouldnt be against the rules here, maybe your concerned that some auld lad will say something a bit stupid about them?

Hey lad I am from the north of the county loads of senior clubs up here why not go to some of these games and come back with a few names yourself and see do we agree;)

Topcat32 · 10-09-2017 10:43AM

dzer2 wrote: »

Hey lad I am from the north of the county loads of senior clubs up here why not go to some of these games and come back with a few names yourself and see do we agree;)

To be fair if you cant make a county team playing with a Northern senior team, you are not good enough, if you had said south I might have come around to what you are saying.

Topcat32 · 10-09-2017 10:44AM

dzer2 wrote: »

Hey lad I am from the north of the county loads of senior clubs up here why not go to some of these games and come back with a few names yourself and see do we agree;)

To be fair if you cant make a county team playing with a Northern senior team, you are not good enough, if you had said south I might have come around to what you are saying.

dzer2 · 10-09-2017 11:09AM

Topcat32 wrote: »

To be fair if you cant make a county team playing with a Northern senior team, you are not good enough, if you had said south I might have come around to what you are saying.

Loads of them down there too

But the comment shows where you are really in terms of hurling bias
It never really bothers me where a chap is from as long as he his chance
Cody was that way too but has regressed lately

soft free · 10-09-2017 11:40AM

Hurling development doesn’t happen in isolation.
Whatever we may or may not be doing, other counties are working at development and currently at a higher level and more intensity than what we are at. Our much vaunted Development Squad system brought us an advantage at underage but that it no longer the case. And squads are only one part of the development of players, clubs are first and foremost,
As an example, Wexford, Laois, Dublin, Waterford and maybe others are bringing large numbers of players at u13 in at county and regional level together. Some might say that’s too early and there are pitfalls in it but there may be, in time, advantages to it.
This year Kilkenny scrapped the previous method of selecting players for u14 squads. Instead of clubs nominating players for u14, Kilkenny clubs agreed, in December 2016, to use the Paddy Grace Feile to identify players for u14 and across all grades at A,B and C. A lot of work went into that change but it will take a while to see if it is better than the previous system and clubs retain the power to change it.
Compare a young lad coming into a Kilkenny development squad at u14 to a young lad from another hurling county. The Kilkenny player will participate in maybe a maximum 20-24 sessions from April to end of August while a young lad, from say Wexford will have started at u13 over the previous winter and will, by August of the following year, may have done around 40-50 sessions, including blitzes. I’m just giving Wexford as an example, other counties would be similar. However, a young lad in Kilkenny will most likely be hurling in school and based on current standings, at a level higher than many other counties. Swings and roundabouts: hurling at a higher school level vs collective sessions, elements of S&C, team development etc. Kilkenny over the past few years have delivered programmes over the winter aimed at introducing awareness and basic techniques of own body weight exercises and flexibility, etc. This years u14s will begin that in October/ November, based on the last few years programme. (Kilkenny this year also introduced regional blitz type session where players not involved in squads trained collectively with players from other clubs)

Clearly, Limerick were the much better team yesterday. Physically, skill wise and team work , they displayed higher levels than Kilkenny did and were the better team more than score line indicated. While a number of Limerick players are involved at senior level and hence have a higher level of conditioning and hurling, it is not the only reason why they won. I don’t about others but I have only seen the u21 in matches and not training. But I have seen players from my own club and others being close enough to the level. The selection process of players and a team is led by and filtered through management’s experience and expectations. The panel selected yesterday and the team that started was, in their view, the best available. Some of us might disagree and I would number amongst them. Comparing the minor result from both teams in 2014 was a futile exercise. The match yesterday showed that in the intervening years Limerick had passed Kilkenny out and anyone with a passing knowledge of what other counties are doing would have known that.
It is or it should be that clubs are where players are. It is in school teams and squads where the stronger player get stronger. That is not happening at the moment. The success of St. Kierans and other schools tends to skew the relative strength of Kilkenny underage hurling.
Some posters calling for ex county players to be involved in squad level. This has been happening and this year DJ was the coach for the u14s (came in last year for football). JJ Delaney and others took sessions this year. Should there be more? Depends. Are they good coaches? That’s the question.
So we can look back this year at provincial wins at minor and u21. On their own, they are merited. But our u17s, who were untouchable in Forristal at u14, were beaten and well beaten by a Dublin team who were miles off them three years ago. How did that happen? Not rocket science but evidence, if it were needed, that other counties were working harder to catch up and have passed us out, at underage at least. The change made at u14 this year might be a sign that we are slowly beginning to think differently. But working hard at club level will mean less hard work as players develop. Develop skills, flexibility, strength, team work and a work ethic that starts with individual responsibility will help us get back to parity. Parity is where we are at. We are no longer top of the tree. At underage, we haven’t been for a few years. Club hurling, these past few years, has been of an ordinary standard at senior. Intermediate has been a bit better. It is for clubs to do the groundwork. Squads and schools, with or without ex-players coaching or teaching, is where we need to begin again. The rest, squads, inter county teams, will reap benefits allied with good structures and resources.

Cornerback1 · 10-09-2017 12:01PM

Stopitwillya wrote: »

Should eddie brennan get a third term with the under 21s? They definetly underachieved again this year considering the easy run to todays final. Will he be a contender to eventually replace cody? If things had gone well that would have seemed likely. If brennan is not in charge next who should get the job? Shefflin? Pat Hoban? Dj?

I wouldn't be a big fan of bringing a manager in on account of their playing CV. This is totally wrong but in the GAA, both codes and a few other sports it seems to be the way at the minute. X was a great player, won this and that, therefore he will probably be a good manager. This 'fast track' approach doesn't really work in my opinion. Not sure what Eddie's experience is in terms of management but to get the U21 was a big ask for him and will this be how he will be defined as a manager? I hope not. I think managers should get loads of experience first with schools, clubs and uni's etc. first before getting a county job. That's just my opinion.

Take D.J. for example. He's building up a good CV with Carlow IT this past few years. He was also doing coaching sesssions with Ulster GAA and other provincies etc. so he's building up all his management skills. I like this approach. Just my opinion in terms of county managers and no disrepect to Eddie.

Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

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Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 MOD NOTE POST 1*