Train prices gone crazy

Pixel Eater · 29-08-2017 03:13PM

eeguy wrote: »

That's very cheap. I can't get a return from Dub to Cork for less than 40 and that's booking 2 weeks in advance. The bus is €10 from Waterford to Dublin City Centre one way according to this: http://www.dublincoach.ie/timetables-fares/M9-waterford-kilkenny-dublin-bus.php#fareinfo

But €40 isn't too bad for Cork, wouldn't want to pay much more though. That tenner to Waterford is very good still I was willing to pay an extra fiver for the comfort and (slightly) faster trip.

bk wrote: »

BTW I've taken rail in The Netherlands and they have it spot on, fast, cheap and easy to use. It isn't too fancy, no reserved seat in second class, you might even have to stand it is so busy and if I remember correctly the toilets were pretty terrible. However you could just walk up on the day and buy a ticket for cheap and just jump on and it quickly got you to your destination.

It didn't have airs about itself like IR do with intercity. It is more like a very fast bus service. Cheap, fast, mast transit, it is what rail should be.

The differences is that the Netherlands is a very densely populated and urban country and railways need this critical mass to be viable. The large amount of urban sprawl and one-off housing in Ireland is really a big hindrance to having a profitable, sustainable rail network.

devnull · 29-08-2017 03:14PM

unkel wrote: »

We don't need Dermot O'Leary for the trains, we need Michael O'Leary :cool:

Before Ryanair I once paid £600 one way Dublin to Amsterdam with Aer Lingus (booked weeks in advance). Since then I typically pay €70 return with Ryanair, sometimes cheaper and rarely over €100.

A former colleague of mine used to travel to Warsaw and couldn't find a single fare below €100 with Aer Lingus when they had a monopoly on that route so used to fly to another city for €25 with Ryanair and then get a bus/train to Warsaw from there and saved herself a packet each time she flew there.

At the same time Aer Lingus were starting fares at €45 to Krakow where they did have competition. She complained to Aer Lingus about exploiting their position and was written a very nice email back that told her that the airport charges were so high that the fares could not be any lower and she should take up her issue with the authorities in Poland.

Ryanair started flying to Warsaw to the secondary airport a few months later and suddenly Aer Lingus were able to reduce flights to €40 despite the fact that a few weeks previously the airport fees were increased, the same ones that were already too high and the reason for the €100 fares in the first place. This was years ago. Even today flights on that route on AL start at €42.

Thing is, whatever about the prices, the rail system in this country really needs an overhaul in many areas to really compete.

29-08-2017 03:15PM

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

Im not sure of the distance, but last time I got a train from London to Manchester it was £110.

I think that's over 300km as opposed to the 250km from Dublin to Cork. So it is a longer trip but not hugely so.

29-08-2017 03:16PM

Another sneaky thing they've done is alter the off peak hours on the Dublin-Dundalk route. It used to be off peak after 9.30am Mon-Sat (all day Sunday). Now its 10am-3.30pm and again after 7pm. Sundays stays the same. IR screwing the customer yet again. Saturday should be off peak all day too.

pawrick · 29-08-2017 03:24PM

Generally when I've a reason to use public transport these days it's a spur of the moment decision if the weather is good for an outing so at best i'm looking one day in advance for bookings. The increased costs doing it this way put people like me off day trips and push me towards using my car instead.

bk · 29-08-2017 03:26PM

Pixel Eater wrote: »

But €40 isn't too bad for Cork, wouldn't want to pay much more though.

I'd agree that €40 would be reasonable if it was the walk up fare. But to get that fare you have to book 4 weeks in advance. Try and book even a few days in advance and you are paying €80!

You can book GoBE 1 hour in advance at €23 (and another 10% off if you go regularly). And I have to say, honestly I find the coach very comfortable too. With wifi and power the trip really flies by.

unkel · 29-08-2017 03:29PM

bk wrote: »

I'd agree that €40 would be reasonable if it was the walk up fare. But to get that fare you have to book 4 weeks in advance. Try and book even a few days in advance and you are paying €80!

Looks like the cheapest fares are available 2 days in advance.

unkel · 29-08-2017 03:32PM

Pixel Eater wrote: »

The differences is that the Netherlands is a very densely populated and urban country and railways need this critical mass to be viable. The large amount of urban sprawl and one-off housing in Ireland is really a big hindrance to having a profitable, sustainable rail network.

Yes this is true. Perhaps we should just suspend the Irish rail network and only keep commuter trains?

Commercial bus lines seem more suitable for intercity travelling on public transport in this country. And are obviously a lot cheaper. When I looked last week I saw prices from €10-€17 one way Dublin to Cork

ED E · 29-08-2017 03:38PM

Close the majority of the lines but protect them. Let the population grown and centralize. Then in 2050 we can start spooling them back up without CPOs and build Hyperloops.

bk · 29-08-2017 03:41PM

unkel wrote: »

Looks like the cheapest fares are available 2 days in advance.

Fair enough seems like it has improved! works out at €46 return.

I'd personally still take the coach and save the €25, doing the trip every 2nd week, that would quickly add up, but not too bad if you doing a once a year trip. Also I usually don't know if I'm heading down until the day. So that would quickly jump up to €80, would still be €23 (€20.70) on GoBE.

Fair play though, looks like progress. It use to be the case that if you booked two weeks in advance it was €80, this is much more reasonable.

Pixel Eater · 29-08-2017 03:50PM

unkel wrote: »

Yes this is true. Perhaps we should just suspend the Irish rail network and only keep commuter trains?

Commercial bus lines seem more suitable for intercity travelling on public transport in this country. And are obviously a lot cheaper. When I looked last week I saw prices from €10-€17 one way Dublin to Cork

Radical but possibly, with the exception of the Belfast and Cork routes to/from Dublin maybe. It's hard to compete with the prices of buses.

eeguy · 29-08-2017 05:10PM

Do you have to stick to your time slot if you book the train? Say if I book a 1pm trip to Cork, could I rock up at 2 or 3 with the same ticket?

bk · 29-08-2017 05:11PM

eeguy wrote: »

Do you have to stick to your time slot if you book the train? Say if I book a 1pm trip to Cork, could I rock up at 2 or 3 with the same ticket?

You have to stick to the time slot unless you pay for a lot more expensive "flexible" ticket.

29-08-2017 05:12PM

eeguy wrote: »

Do you have to stick to your time slot if you book the train? Say if I book a 1pm trip to Cork, could I rock up at 2 or 3 with the same ticket?

There are different types of tickets. Some are for a specific service only, some are flexible.

end of the road · 29-08-2017 05:35PM

unkel wrote: »

We don't need Dermot O'Leary for the trains, we need Michael O'Leary

Before Ryanair I once paid £600 one way Dublin to Amsterdam with Aer Lingus (booked weeks in advance). Since then I typically pay €70 return with Ryanair, sometimes cheaper and rarely over €100.

there is not a lot Michael O'Leary can do. ryanair levels of fares on trains as fantastic as they would be could probably never happen in ireland. we can't really compare the air industry to the rail industry IMO. they may share some characteristics but there are others which are different.
i do believe prices can come down from what they are but along with that, the train needs to offer a lot more then it does.

unkel wrote: »

Perhaps we should just suspend the Irish rail network and only keep commuter trains?

the vast majority of the lines actually have commuter traffic, intercity is only really a brand. however commuter traffic does need more from their train service then a seat.
all you would do by suspending the railway is remove a public transport option from people and send them to the car, and you could potentially put more of it in danger as there are passengers who do transfer between services. how many are unknown, but i wouldn't be surprised if it's a lot more then we would think.
99% of the railway in this country has the numbers but it is going to have to charge more reasonable fares and offer something more for the money to attract greater usership. it can be done but it is going to need the will to do it and the support of government, NTA, irish rail, and other stakeholders.

unkel wrote: »

Commercial bus lines seem more suitable for intercity travelling on public transport in this country.

for those who use them yes. for those who don't and have no intention of ever doing so as busses will never meet their needs, they aren't and never will be suitable. so having them as the only public transport option won't work. for the most part there is room for both rail and road but the railway has to up it's game big time.

unkel wrote: »

And are obviously a lot cheaper. When I looked last week I saw prices from €10-€17 one way Dublin to Cork

there is no doubt they are cheaper, but it would be interesting to see how cheap they would be if they had to run on dedicated roads, and fully fund that infrastructure. the same as rail has to effectively do. they are lucky that they have cars and other vehicles to share the infrastructure with but that infrastructure does ultimately cost big bucks, especially when it needs constant expansion which roads tend to need over all.

bk · 29-08-2017 06:09PM

end of the road wrote: »

there is no doubt they are cheaper, but it would be interesting to see how cheap they would be if they had to run on dedicated roads, and fully fund that infrastructure. the same as rail has to effectively do. they are lucky that they have cars and other vehicles to share the infrastructure with but that infrastructure does ultimately cost big bucks, especially when it needs constant expansion which roads tend to need over all.

What you say above is true, but also pretty pointless.

The truth is roads are far more important then rail. Like it or not (and I don't) roads are much more important then rail (outside of congested core city centers, then it flips). Rail has to justify itself running beside the road.

The government doesn't care less about road versus rail, they, rightfully just care about getting people from a to b in the quickest and cheapest way possible.

The government having spent 8 billion on our intercity motorways, needed as 99% of freight moves by road and most people travel by car. So then allowing coaches to make use of that resource makes total sense.

Rail needs to justify it's existence and subsidy in parallel to these roads. No point in talking about what ifs like this. Your average commuter doesn't care and neither does the government.

end of the road · 29-08-2017 06:22PM

i would disagree the government doesn't care. they do. they have been playing politics with transport for decades. they do believe in road over rail and road vs rail.
every other country sees their rail network as part of the infrastructure of the country. we don't. we need to grow up and do so and invest in it, a road only solution is not going to work, be sustainible or cost effective.
the commuters who use the rail services very much do care about their survival and they won't be forced into using services that don't meet their needs, IE bus services. the bus services are there if people want them but people will not be forced to use them, especially by having the option that does meet their needs removed.
rail itself, operator asside, has justified the money it gets. IE'S failings do not mean rail itself is the problem, it's far from the problem.

bk · 29-08-2017 06:42PM

end of the road wrote: »

every other country sees their rail network as part of the infrastructure of the country. we don't. we need to grow up and do so and invest in it, a road only solution is not going to work, be sustainible or cost effective.

Hold on their a second, over the last few years the government has invested 1.5 billion building Luas, 800 million on new trains for IR, 100 million opening the iditotic WRC and 100 million+ on various other IR safety projects, etc.

And now they are gearing up to spend 2+ billion on Metro North.

And you don't think they take rail seriously!

The government absolutely see rail as an important part of our infrastructure. But the part of it that makes financial sense. The city and commuter mass transit part.

The rest is absolutely not at all justifying itself versus road.

JCX BXC · 29-08-2017 06:46PM

bk wrote: »

100 million opening the iditotic WRC

Someone doesn't like the whest!

It's was politically motivated and shouldn't have happened, but it's not the worst failure, €43ish Subsidy per passenger isn't exactly Ballybrophys €780.

end of the road · 29-08-2017 07:06PM

bk wrote: »

Hold on their a second, over the last few years the government has invested 1.5 billion building Luas, 800 million on new trains for IR, 100 million opening the iditotic WRC and 100 million+ on various other IR safety projects, etc.

And now they are gearing up to spend 2+ billion on Metro North.

And you don't think they take rail seriously!

The government absolutely see rail as an important part of our infrastructure. But the part of it that makes financial sense. The city and commuter mass transit part.

The rest is absolutely not at all justifying itself versus road.

it is justifying itself. 99% of the rail network is viable.
ennis athenry shouldn't have been reopened but i do believe through galway limerick journeys are reasonable now.
ballybroaphy has been beyond saving for years we all know that due to incompetents which CIE should never have been able to get away with but they did.
limerick junction waterford can still be brought back from the brink and be improved, i believe the infrastructure has mostly been renewed.
rosslare goarey itself has reasonable numbers using the services with good loadings and there are more potential users for the taking but the train will have to bother to compete in some way. if it can't be speed it can be something else.
apart from ballybroaphy and that is even questionable given it's irish rail, closing any more rail won't bring any benefits or save anything, we will be back here again also with more for the chop.

bk · 29-08-2017 07:28PM

JCX BXC wrote: »

Someone doesn't like the whest!

It's was politically motivated and shouldn't have happened, but it's not the worst failure, €43ish Subsidy per passenger isn't exactly Ballybrophys €780.

On top of the 100 million to reopen something that should never had been.

I love the Whest

That 100million + a couple of millions per year operating subsidy could have been far better spent on the West of Ireland.

unkel · 29-08-2017 08:38PM

JCX BXC wrote: »

It's was politically motivated and shouldn't have happened, but it's not the worst failure, €43ish Subsidy per passenger

You're saying every time a passenger gets into the western rail corridor, it costs the tax payer €43? :eek:

goingnowhere · 29-08-2017 09:03PM

unkel wrote: »

You're saying every time a passenger gets into the western rail corridor, it costs the tax payer €43? :eek:

Actually 66 euro, the current subsidy covers 43 euro, the rest is loss

JCX BXC · 29-08-2017 09:07PM

unkel wrote: »

You're saying every time a passenger gets into the western rail corridor, it costs the tax payer €43? :eek:

Dublin to:

Rosslare: €27
Westport/Ballina: €22
Limerick: €15
Waterford: €8.2
Tralee: €13.2
Galway: €6.30
Cork: €17.50
Sligo: €18

Just for comparison. (Posted by BK earlier)

bk · 29-08-2017 09:22PM

goingnowhere wrote: »

Actually 66 euro, the current subsidy covers 43 euro, the rest is loss

Yes, it is mad, you could pay for an individual taxi for each one of those passengers!

goingnowhere · 29-08-2017 09:25PM

WRC might be crazy but 761 euro on the Ballybrophy line is mad and Alan Kelly who himself is guilty indirectly of adding to the losses of the line wants us to pay up.

I think a helicopter would be cheaper...

unkel · 29-08-2017 09:31PM

That's madness. Most urban mass commuting by public transport needs some subsidy to survive, but there should be zero subsidy on intercity travel. Isn't there a politician brave enough to propose to either scrap all subsidies or just to close the railway network down? Ryanair and the commercial buses will get the business and they don't cost us a cent. In fact they contribute by bringing in income tax, VAT, and corporate tax.

JCX BXC · 29-08-2017 09:34PM

Don't most InterCity services require subsidy? Also I think bus services on these routes are subsided too.

devnull · 29-08-2017 09:37PM

JCX BXC wrote: »

Don't most InterCity services require subsidy? Also I think bus services on these routes are subsided too.

None of the private intercity bus services or the BE Expressway intercity services are subsdised they operate fully commercially.

bk · 29-08-2017 09:39PM

JCX BXC wrote: »

Don't most InterCity services require subsidy? Also I think bus services on these routes are subsided too.

Yes all intercity services do. As for buses, depends on which ones you are talking about. Definitely not the privates like Aircoach/GoBE/GoBus/Citylink/Dublin Coach, nor BE Expressway services (at least not directly), non of those get a subsidy other then for the Free Travel Pass where accepted.

Only BE PSO and LocalLynk services get a subsidy.

Train prices gone crazy

Comments