Train prices gone crazy

unkel · 29-08-2017 12:57PM #1

Last week I was in Heuston station, Dublin and I asked at the desk for a one way ticket second class for my little girl and myself to Cork. It was Monday just after lunchtime, so not peak time at all. €95. I know it is cheaper when you book online several days in advance, but that price is just absurd

A similar trip in the Netherlands (where trains are far from cheap) is €28. Even in the UK where train costs are notoriously high, you wouldn't pay €95 for a 250km trip

Why is the full price so expensive? A quick google tells me that an experienced train driver has a salary of €65k, nearly twice the median Irish salary. In the Netherlands (where salaries are broadly similar to Ireland), it's not much more than half that

Looks like wage inflation has gone mad here? Surely these ticket prices (wages) are unsustainable?

wench · 29-08-2017 01:16PM

It's the one way trips where they really get you.

Just to note, you don't have to book days ahead anymore, today's 3pm departure can currently be bought online for €55 for an adult and child.

JCX BXC · 29-08-2017 01:30PM

I check a fare from Ennis to Heuston a few days ago at the ticket machine at the station.

€63.10! I nearly fell over! Who in their right mind would pay that instead of walking a few meters and waiting for the bus?

eeguy · 29-08-2017 01:37PM

JCX BXC wrote: »

I check a fare from Ennis to Heuston a few days ago at the ticket machine at the station.

€63.10! I nearly fell over! Who in their right mind would pay that instead of walking a few meters and waiting for the bus?

Who knows. It would cost the guts of €80 if I wanted to book a return train from Cork to Heuston today. Plus the cost of the Luas to get into the city centre.
The aircoach would cost me €24 return. €30 if I needed to get dropped to the airport.
No difference in speed really. The train is more comfy, but it's not €50 more comfy.

devnull · 29-08-2017 01:38PM

JCX BXC wrote: »

I check a fare from Ennis to Heuston a few days ago at the ticket machine at the station.

€63.10! I nearly fell over! Who in their right mind would pay that instead of walking a few meters and waiting for the bus?

But it's all about yield management at the end of the day, if you buy a ticket from the train station on the day it can be used on any train, if you buy one for a discounted price you are more restricted and the trains with the most free seats will be the ones with the cheapest fares.

It's the same model as airlines, book a ticket for a fixed flight and you can save money, if you want to buy a flexibile ticket the price will increase a lot.

The aircoach would cost me €24 return. €30 if I needed to get dropped to the airport.

Can get it €20 return to Dublin City or €27 to Dublin Airport if you book far enough ahead.

JCX BXC · 29-08-2017 01:43PM

devnull wrote: »

But it's all about yield management at the end of the day, if you buy a ticket from the train station on the day it can be used on any train, if you buy one for a discounted price you are more restricted and the trains with the most free seats will be the ones with the cheapest fares.

It's the same model as airlines, book a ticket for a fixed flight and you can save money, if you want to buy a flexibile ticket the price will increase a lot.
.

You can buy a flexible ticket online for €36, much cheaper than €61.

The difference between air transport and train transport is that you have a different option with train transport, a bus, most of the time which is always the same price.

You don't have alternate options with air, most of the time at least.

unkel · 29-08-2017 01:45PM

devnull wrote: »

It's the same model as airlines, book a ticket for a fixed flight and you can save money, if you want to buy a flexibile ticket the price will increase a lot.

I didn't want or need a flexible ticket. I tried online buying when I was at Heuston, as I was taken aback by the price. But the online price was the same at that stage (full fare)

And of course there is yield pricing, but the Irish rail prices are extortionate. The most I have paid for a return flight to the Netherlands in the last 10 years was €200, as it was an emergency and I needed to fly straight away. Expensive, but not extortionate. Average price about €70 including all charges for a return flight.

ED E · 29-08-2017 01:46PM

Dont worry, IR will collapse soon.

bk · 29-08-2017 01:47PM

devnull wrote: »

But it's all about yield management at the end of the day, if you buy a ticket from the train station on the day it can be used on any train, if you buy one for a discounted price you are more restricted and the trains with the most free seats will be the ones with the cheapest fares.

It's the same model as airlines, book a ticket for a fixed flight and you can save money, if you want to buy a flexibile ticket the price will increase a lot.

Yield management falls apart when you can walk out of the station and jump on a bus for 1/4 the price and pretty much same journey time. Nevermind the car which unkel has some great options

Yield management only works when your service is massively over booked. That certainly isn't the case for IR. Personally I think they need to ditch the idea and go for a more dutch approach, make it cheap and easy and pack them in.

howiya · 29-08-2017 01:49PM

I take the aircoach if going all the way to Cork but I've had reason to use the train line a few times lately and mostly unexpected. There's no alternative bus that I know of. €50 ish for an open return. I don't think its extortionate it. Would I like it to be cheaper? Yes but extortionate I don't agree

LeinsterDub · 29-08-2017 01:50PM

devnull wrote: »

But it's all about yield management at the end of the day

I think we had this conversation before and agreed you only need to manage yield if you have yield to manage in the first place. Trains are running practically empty.

devnull · 29-08-2017 01:56PM

JCX BXC wrote: »

You can buy a flexible ticket online for €36, much cheaper than €61.

But this isn't an option on the day of travel.

The difference between air transport and train transport is that you have a different option with train transport, a bus, most of the time which is always the same price. You don't have alternate options with air, most of the time at least.

Go look at the prices where one operator has a monopoly and see what happens to the prices when they get some competition, you will find many more tiers of pricing are added when there is competition in any market.

And of course there is yield pricing, but the Irish rail prices are extortionate. The most I have paid for a return flight to the Netherlands in the last 10 years was €200, as it was an emergency and I needed to fly straight away. Expensive, but not extortionate. Average price about €70 including all charges for a return flight.

I paid €150 for a flight once on Aer Lingus but that was an emergency too, I think there is an argument to allow online prices until a few hours before departure when there are certain number of seats free, the UK has started doing this recently as well.

bk wrote: »

Yield management falls apart when you can walk out of the station and jump on a bus for 1/4 the price and pretty much same journey time. Nevermind the car which unkel has some great options

Yield management only works when your service is massively over booked. That certainly isn't the case for IR. Personally I think they need to ditch the idea and go for a more dutch approach, make it cheap and easy and pack them in.

But you have to get a balance. Maximising passenger numbers never maximises revenue because there is a tipping point in all pricing where the extra revenue that is brought in by extra passengers is less than the revenue lost to existing passengers who are now paying less than they were before. It's a question of getting that balance right.

FishOnABike · 29-08-2017 02:04PM

I doubt the driver's salaries are the largest part of your €95 fare. Divide it by the number of journeys a driver makes in a year and it would take no more than a handful of passengers per train to cover the wages cost.

The cost of maintaining the infrastructure and rolling stock would be a for more significant cost.

bk · 29-08-2017 02:05PM

devnull wrote: »

But you have to get a balance. Maximising passenger numbers never maximises revenue because there is a tipping point in all pricing where the extra revenue that is brought in by extra passengers is less than the revenue lost to existing passengers who are now paying less than they were before. It's a question of getting that balance right.

Sure, but I don't see any evidence that IR is anywhere near that point. IR's problem is that on many of these lines they aren't bringing in anywhere near enough passengers for the given high fixed capital and running costs.

I'd also argue that IR's approach left the market wind open for the private coach operators to step in and massively undercut IR and win business from them.

You can see that in the Netherlands, private coach operators barely exist, because the train is so cheap, it doesn't leave any room for private coaches to underprice them

LeinsterDub · 29-08-2017 02:11PM

devnull wrote: »

But you have to get a balance. Maximising passenger numbers never maximises revenue because there is a tipping point in all pricing where the extra revenue that is brought in by extra passengers is less than the revenue lost to existing passengers who are now paying less than they were before. It's a question of getting that balance right.

Well minimising passengers numbers certainly isn't working.

Hey government are trains are like cow wagons. Standing room only. Look at the public service we are providing any chance you could pick up the short fall? Thanks ÍE

unkel · 29-08-2017 02:19PM

bk wrote: »

in the Netherlands, private coach operators barely exist, because the train is so cheap, it doesn't leave any room for private coaches to underprice them

Train in the Netherlands is also far quicker than private car or coaches. And people might not know this but in NL all train stations are bang in the middle of the city centres. That's a huge benefit compared to Ireland where the trains only stop long distances (barely walkable with luggage) from the city centres, which is ridiculous (but Ireland is not alone in this).

Eindhoven to Rotterdam by train is 1 hour exactly (115km) peak and off-peak with about 2 or 3 stops in between. It would take at least 1:30 hour in a car between the city centres off-peak. Well over 2 hours peak. And then there is finding parking and parking charges...

Just looked up and a single adult train ticket today from Dublin to Cork is €65, for tomorrow that would be €39 and for 2 days from now a more reasonable €22 (still far more expensive than a bus that, as others mentioned, is hardly any slower - I think 3 hours vs 2.5 hours for the train I was in)

Those €65 and €39 have put me right off. I rarely travel by train in Ireland, but from now on I never will unless I know well enough up front to buy a cheaper ticket. Surely this business model is not sustainable. BTW train was no more than 10%-15% full on the way over to Cork. On what must be the busiest intercity train in the country. Other routes must be a lot less occupied again. This can not be sustainable.

Pixel Eater · 29-08-2017 02:23PM

Just to play devil's advocate: I recently got a train from Heuston to Waterford on a Friday evening, booked only the day before for €15. Then a return journey from Cork for only €25. In each case it was cheaper and quicker than the bus.

But I agree some of the prices are simply absurd. Maybe they could charge a bit bit extra, capped at, say €20, over the base price for seats where demand is high.

eeguy · 29-08-2017 02:24PM

devnull wrote: »

But it's all about yield management at the end of the day, if you buy a ticket from the train station on the day it can be used on any train, if you buy one for a discounted price you are more restricted and the trains with the most free seats will be the ones with the cheapest fares.

It's the same model as airlines, book a ticket for a fixed flight and you can save money, if you want to buy a flexibile ticket the price will increase a lot.

Can get it €20 return to Dublin City or €27 to Dublin Airport if you book far enough ahead.

You shouldn't need yield management on a train line. They should be able to roughly predict numbers and add carriages accordingly.
Or add extra trains in exceptional circumstances, like matches and concerts.

You're not crossing borders and customs barriers, why make things more complicated, expensive and inconvenient than they need to be.

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Just to play devil's advocate: I recently got a train from Heuston to Waterford on a Friday evening, booked only the day before for €15. Then a return journey from Cork for only €25. In each case it was cheaper and quicker than the bus.

That's very cheap. I can't get a return from Dub to Cork for less than 40 and that's booking 2 weeks in advance. The bus is €10 from Waterford to Dublin City Centre one way according to this: http://www.dublincoach.ie/timetables-fares/M9-waterford-kilkenny-dublin-bus.php#fareinfo

JCX BXC · 29-08-2017 02:40PM

The pricing just seems to have little logic behind it.

A commuter ticket from Ennis to Galway for a month, let's assume you use it 22/30 days a month (quite generous) that costs €415.

Buy day returns at the station, for 22 days a month, it costs €330.

Where's the logic in that?

29-08-2017 02:47PM

You could easily pay €95 in the UK for a 250km journey for two people, easily. It costs £54 for two people to get from Paddington to Heathrow on the Heathrow Express if you buy your ticket on-board for example. Journey is about 1/10th of the distance from Dublin to Cork.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater · 29-08-2017 02:52PM

When I lived in Tralee, I remember paying €88 for a day return to Dublin. It would actually have been cheaper to fly from Farranfore.

devnull · 29-08-2017 02:54PM

Kaiden Puny Parrot wrote: »

You could easily pay €95 in the UK for a 250km journey for two people, easily. It costs £54 for two people to get from Paddington to Heathrow on the Heathrow Express if you buy your ticket on-board for example. Journey is about 1/10th of the distance from Dublin to Cork.

Indeed but Heathrow Express is basically what is a luxury service aimed at the middle class and the business community. It's a hideously expensive service for sure for the distance and price of it, but people still use it and quite a lot of people at that so there is clearly demand from some parts of society.

Personally I'd use the Tube or Heathrow Connect.

Sebastian Dangerfield · 29-08-2017 02:55PM

Kaiden Puny Parrot wrote: »

You could easily pay €95 in the UK for a 250km journey for two people, easily. .

Im not sure of the distance, but last time I got a train from London to Manchester it was £110.

Sabre0001 · 29-08-2017 02:56PM

Haven't travelled by train in a long time because of the prices, but booked a journey from Cork to Dub and was pleasantly surprised - €20. Now, that's booked several weeks in advance and at the Low Fare option...but still decent. May have to take a look at train option more frequently, but only if I'm sure well in advance of when I want to travel.

devnull · 29-08-2017 02:58PM

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

Im not sure of the distance, but last time I got a train from London to Manchester it was £110.

Cheapest I can see for today is £142 peak £83 off peak and £38 late night.

ED E · 29-08-2017 02:58PM

Dont know why they interview Dermot OLeary, broken record playing the victim 24/7.
http://pca.st/le2l

bk · 29-08-2017 03:02PM

unkel wrote: »

Those €65 and €39 have put me right off. I rarely travel by train in Ireland, but from now on I never will unless I know well enough up front to buy a cheaper ticket. Surely this business model is not sustainable. BTW train was no more than 10%-15% full on the way over to Cork. On what must be the busiest intercity train in the country. Other routes must be a lot less occupied again. This can not be sustainable.

Yup, and now you know why I've said when I buy an EV, I want it to have the range to make it to Cork. As it is I only use GoBE/Aircoach to Cork since they started, after years of taking the train. 1/4th of the cost, almost as fast and comfortable.

Rail is pricing itself right out of the market IMO.

BTW I've taken rail in The Netherlands and they have it spot on, fast, cheap and easy to use. It isn't too fancy, no reserved seat in second class, you might even have to stand it is so busy and if I remember correctly the toilets were pretty terrible. However you could just walk up on the day and buy a ticket for cheap and just jump on and it quickly got you to your destination.

It didn't have airs about itself like IR do with intercity. It is more like a very fast bus service. Cheap, fast, mast transit, it is what rail should be.

unkel · 29-08-2017 03:02PM

ED E wrote: »

Dont know why they interview Dermot OLeary

We don't need Dermot O'Leary for the trains, we need Michael O'Leary :cool:

Before Ryanair I once paid £600 one way Dublin to Amsterdam with Aer Lingus (booked weeks in advance). Since then I typically pay €70 return with Ryanair, sometimes cheaper and rarely over €100.

bk · 29-08-2017 03:05PM

devnull wrote: »

Indeed but Heathrow Express is basically what is a luxury service aimed at the middle class and the business community. It's a hideously expensive service for sure for the distance and price of it, but people still use it and quite a lot of people at that so there is clearly demand from some parts of society.

Personally I'd use the Tube or Heathrow Connect.

It is mostly people on business trips who can expense it, so no skin off their noise.

IR first class gets a little of that too, but less of those folks around in general.

Sabre0001 wrote: »

Haven't travelled by train in a long time because of the prices, but booked a journey from Cork to Dub and was pleasantly surprised - €20. Now, that's booked several weeks in advance and at the Low Fare option...but still decent. May have to take a look at train option more frequently, but only if I'm sure well in advance of when I want to travel.

One way I assume? I think the cheapest return is €40

29-08-2017 03:08PM

devnull wrote: »

Indeed but Heathrow Express is basically what is a luxury service aimed at the middle class and the business community. It's a hideously expensive service for sure for the distance and price of it, but people still use it and quite a lot of people at that so there is clearly demand from some parts of society.

Personally I'd use the Tube or Heathrow Connect.

Business travellers whose employers are paying for it would make up a huge chunk of its fares I would guess, it's the only circumstance I've ever used it in anyway.

Sabre0001 · 29-08-2017 03:08PM

bk wrote: »

One way I assume? I think the cheapest return is €40

Yep, one way. If it was return, I'd be on the train all the time

Train prices gone crazy

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