"Non book readers" - Season 7 Episode 7 "The Dragon and the Wolf"

Sonics2k · 29-08-2017 02:10PM

rojito wrote: »

Typical GoT to play with your perceptions of characters, several characters this season had pointedly mentioned how Ned Stark was the most honourable/noble/etc man they had ever met but one of the big revelations from last night was that he had, in fact, always known that Jon was a legitimate Targaryean and heir to the throne. So, he betrayed his own family (his sister) massively by denying Jon his birthright and actively encouraging him to go to the Wall where he would renounce all claims to titles (before he knew such claims existed). "I'll tell you about your mother next time we meet", or whatever the exact words were, knowing all too well that at that stage it would be too late for Jon to do anything to challenge Roberts reign, or even for Targaryean supporters to use his existence as an excuse to rebel.

It could be a bit of a Sixth Sense-style plot twist... Ned was a bolix all along.

That's not what I took from it.

If anything, it's far more likely that Ned kept his oath to his sister to protect Jon. Robert would have had the boy killed if he were a legitimate heir to the Iron Throne.

Ned wanted to keep Jon alive, and rather then see his own nephew murdered or see another potential civil war, Ned kept it quiet in order to keep the peace and keep to his oath.

rojito · 29-08-2017 02:15PM

Sonics2k wrote: »

That's not what I took from it.

If anything, it's far more likely that Ned kept his oath to his sister to protect Jon. Robert would have had the boy killed if he were a legitimate heir to the Iron Throne.

Ned wanted to keep Jon alive, and rather then see his own nephew murdered or see another potential civil war, Ned kept it quiet in order to keep the peace and keep to his oath.

But he could have done all that without sending Jon to the Wall. Let him "come of age" so to speak, or even wait until his friend Robert had died. Ned would have known for years that Jon had the potential to be a much better king than Joffrey. By denying him that right he was betraying his sister and Jon.

Vojera · 29-08-2017 02:19PM

rojito wrote: »

Typical GoT to play with your perceptions of characters, several characters this season had pointedly mentioned how Ned Stark was the most honourable/noble/etc man they had ever met but one of the big revelations from last night was that he had, in fact, always known that Jon was a legitimate Targaryean and heir to the throne. So, he betrayed his own family (his sister) massively by denying Jon his birthright and actively encouraging him to go to the Wall where he would renounce all claims to titles (before he knew such claims existed). "I'll tell you about your mother next time we meet", or whatever the exact words were, knowing all too well that at that stage it would be too late for Jon to do anything to challenge Roberts reign, or even for Targaryean supporters to use his existence as an excuse to rebel.

It could be a bit of a Sixth Sense-style plot twist... Ned was a bolix all along.

No, not at all. Ned kept his pledge to his sister to protect her son at great personal cost. In a (rare for the time) loving marriage, Jon was the one void between Ned and Catelyn. It would have been much easier for Ned to tell his wife about Jon's true origins and ask her to keep it secret, but he instead allowed her and everyone else to think he had sired a bastard and been unfaithful in order to keep his promise. And for someone like Ned, it can't have been easy for him to have people think that he wasn't loyal to his wife. Catelyn's distain for Jon was another layer of protection, making the lie more believable.

So while it might be ironic that Jon praised Ned for his unwavering honesty when in fact Ned and been keeping one of biggest secrets in the Seven Kingdoms for the past 20+ years, you still can't deny that Ned was a good man and a fair steward. It wouldn't make any sense to ascribe malice to his actions.

....... · 29-08-2017 02:20PM

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J. Marston · 29-08-2017 02:21PM

"If Robert finds out, he'll kill him. You know he will."

Ned stained his reputation with a "bastard" to uphold a promise to his dying sister.

He was honourable as fúck.

Cina · 29-08-2017 02:30PM

rojito wrote: »

But he could have done all that without sending Jon to the Wall. Let him "come of age" so to speak, or even wait until his friend Robert had died. Ned would have known for years that Jon had the potential to be a much better king than Joffrey. By denying him that right he was betraying his sister and Jon.

Well, while Robert was alive, he couldn't tell him or anyone, because Robert would've killed him. He also promised his sister to protect Jon, naturally the best way to do it was to not tell him.

Even after Robert died, do you think the Lannister's wouldn't have killed him? And Jon was already gone to the wall at that point.

PLUS, Ned didn't know Rhaegar and Lysa were married, in his eyes, Jon was still a bastard with no right to the throne.

Oh and Jon went to the wall by himself. Why would Ned stop him? What excuse could he give him?

Ultimately telling Jon his true heritage was something that could've gotten him killed in many different ways and he promised his sister to protect him, so he didn't tell him. It's not that difficult to understand.

Penn · 29-08-2017 02:31PM

rojito wrote: »

But he could have done all that without sending Jon to the Wall. Let him "come of age" so to speak, or even wait until his friend Robert had died. Ned would have known for years that Jon had the potential to be a much better king than Joffrey. By denying him that right he was betraying his sister and Jon.

He wasn't betraying either of them. He promised to keep Jon safe because he knew Robert would kill him. Even after Robert died, telling Jon could have then sent Jon off to war for the Throne against Joffrey. Another bloody war throughout the Seven Kingdoms (obviously, that's what ended up happening anyway, but by the time those wheels were in motion Jon had already been sent to the Wall and Ned couldn't have known at that stage Joffrey wasn't really Robert's son).

Lyanna didn't care about the Throne, or Jon's birthright to it. She loved Rhaegar and their son, and wanted their son to be safe. As well as that, Jon was the one who wanted to go to the Night's Watch. He thought he was a bastard and felt he could make a home out of being a brother of the Night's Watch, like Benjen. He felt it was somewhere he could truly belong.

Sorry, but you're using knowledge of events which happened after the fact which the characters couldn't have known. Ned raised Jon like one of his own sons but still as a bastard (as obviously Catelyn didn't give birth to him). He risked his own life and his family's lives by keeping the secret from Robert, who still thought Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and stole her from him. Robert even gave the order to have Dany killed to protect his own claim to the Throne, what would he have done with Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, the true heir to the throne? And with Ned having kept that secret from him for all those years. Ned did the only thing he could, risked his own marriage to Catelyn in the process, and when Jon himself wanted to join the Night's Watch, Ned (finally) agreed to it, because now in the knowledge that Robert was potentially in danger from the Lannisters, knew Jon going to the Wall would keep him safe. Like his sister made him promise.

Vojera · 29-08-2017 02:32PM

rojito wrote: »

But he could have done all that without sending Jon to the Wall. Let him "come of age" so to speak, or even wait until his friend Robert had died. Ned would have known for years that Jon had the potential to be a much better king than Joffrey. By denying him that right he was betraying his sister and Jon.

It wouldn't have mattered. Take Daenerys out of the equation for a minute. When Ned was still alive, she was barely a rumour arriving on the beaks of Varys' little birds. He had no idea how she would come to influence events in Westeros.

So now, Robert is dead. There is fighting over whether Renly, Stannis or Joffrey is the legitimate heir to the throne. Ned is the Hand and has a signed scroll from Robert declaring that Ned is to hold the Seven Kingdoms in stewardship until Joffrey comes of age. However, Cersei has wasted no time in having Joffrey installed on the Iron Throne and laughs in Ned's face when he presents his King's wishes.

Now. There may be four parties here with an eye on the throne (even if Ned didn't want it for himself), but they all have one thing in common: they consider the Baratheon line to be the rightful heirs.

Jon at this stage was still a very young man. He hadn't proven himself in all the ways we've witnessed over the past few seasons. Why on earth would Ned endanger his nephew (who he loved and treated like a son) by announcing his existence and claim to people who would immediately try to kill him?

And more than that: Robert Baratheon wasn't a great king, but he wasn't burning people alive. The smallfolk were happy enough with things as they are. Who would have wanted a Targaryan back on the throne?

benny79 · 29-08-2017 02:32PM

Cant believe nobody has said about Tyrian looking on at the end - Maybe Tyrion knows who Jon really is as he's very knowledgeable and reads a lot.. as he stated in a previous series "its his Job to know things"

Cina · 29-08-2017 02:33PM

benny79 wrote: »

Cant believe nobody has said about Tyrian looking on at the end - Maybe Tyrion knows who Jon really is as he's very knowledgeable and reads a lot.. as he stated in a previous series "its his Job to know things"

I think he was just jealous that he couldn't get in on it.

Vojera · 29-08-2017 02:35PM

benny79 wrote: »

Cant believe nobody has said about Tyrian looking on at the end - Maybe Tyrion knows who Jon really is as he's very knowledgeable and reads a lot.. as he stated in a previous series "its his Job to know things"

Loads of people have said it

Penn · 29-08-2017 02:39PM

benny79 wrote: »

Cant believe nobody has said about Tyrian looking on at the end - Maybe Tyrion knows who Jon really is as he's very knowledgeable and reads a lot.. as he stated in a previous series "its his Job to know things"

Mousewar · 29-08-2017 02:40PM

Jon joining the nightswatch was the safest thing for him. Men of the nightswatch give up all claims to titles or thrones. So, even if his secret had come out, Ned could have stayed Robert's hand as a man who had forfeited his rights to the throne was no danger to him. A member of the nightswatch also couldn't marry thus ruling out the possibility of a legitimate heir to challenge Robert. It makes perfect sense why Ned would be happy for him to go to the wall when you consider his only concern was Jon's safety.
When Ned and Jon parted ways, Ned said, we'll talk about your mother the next time we meet. Seems to be that Ned was going to tell him as soon as he was sworn into the watch and therefore his claim to the throne was gone and no longer a threat that Robert might seek to crush.

Penn · 29-08-2017 02:42PM

benny79 wrote: »

Cant believe nobody has said about Tyrian looking on at the end - Maybe Tyrion knows who Jon really is as he's very knowledgeable and reads a lot.. as he stated in a previous series "its his Job to know things"

I doubt his reading of books would have helped him know it, as it seems like the only place it was ever written was one old Maester's diary. Even then, it only would have shown Rhaegar & Lyanna got married, not that they had a child and that Ned was pretending it was his bastard son.

rojito · 29-08-2017 02:54PM

Mousewar wrote: »

Jon joining the nightswatch was the safest thing for him. Men of the nightswatch give up all claims to titles or thrones. So, even if his secret had come out, Ned could have stayed Robert's hand as a man who had forfeited his rights to the throne was no danger to him. A member of the nightswatch also couldn't marry thus ruling out the possibility of a legitimate heir to challenge Robert. It makes perfect sense why Ned would be happy for him to go to the wall when you consider his only concern was Jon's safety.
When Ned and Jon parted ways, Ned said, we'll talk about your mother the next time we meet. Seems to be that Ned was going to tell him as soon as he was sworn into the watch and therefore his claim to the throne was gone and no longer a threat that Robert might seek to crush.

I'll reply to this one as I think it illustrates my point! Every point above is to Ned's benefit and to Jon's detriment.

As a few pointed out, yes Jon decided to go the the Wall, but he had been actively encouraged his entire life. He was certainly manipulated to make that decision.

Despite all the talk of it being a honourable thing to do Ned knew going to the wall was effectively a death sentence. He would have also known that Jon was born out of a loving relationship, even if his parents were not wed, given the Targaryean-y name his sister whispered. So even if he was a bastard, was going to the Wall a suitable life for the child of his sister born out of love? Would she have approved of that life for her son?

Maybe my first post was a bit OTT, I agree there was probably no malice on Neds part. If anything I just feel it was the easy and convenient option and did Jon no favours.

MadYaker · 29-08-2017 02:54PM

Mousewar wrote: »

Jon joining the nightswatch was the safest thing for him. Men of the nightswatch give up all claims to titles or thrones. So, even if his secret had come out, Ned could have stayed Robert's hand as a man who had forfeited his rights to the throne was no danger to him. A member of the nightswatch also couldn't marry thus ruling out the possibility of a legitimate heir to challenge Robert. It makes perfect sense why Ned would be happy for him to go to the wall when you consider his only concern was Jon's safety.
When Ned and Jon parted ways, Ned said, we'll talk about your mother the next time we meet. Seems to be that Ned was going to tell him as soon as he was sworn into the watch and therefore his claim to the throne was gone and no longer a threat that Robert might seek to crush.

I dunno about that, being a man of the nights watch and going on regular patrols beyond the wall isnt exactly a safe occupation. He would have been safer staying in winterfell, since Ned was the only living person who knew his real identity.

Vojera · 29-08-2017 03:01PM

rojito wrote: »

I'll reply to this one as I think it illustrates my point! Every point above is to Ned's benefit and to Jon's detriment.

How is saving Jon's life not to Jon's benefit?

How is it of benefit to Ned to stain his good name and introduce mistrust to his marriage? It would have been easier for Ned to tell the truth about Jon, but doing so would have gotten Jon killed.

rojito · 29-08-2017 03:07PM

Vojera wrote: »

How is saving Jon's life not to Jon's benefit?

How is it of benefit to Ned to stain his good name and introduce mistrust to his marriage? It would have been easier for Ned to tell the truth about Jon, but doing so would have gotten Jon killed.

How is encouraging him to go to the Wall to Jon's benefit? Was it a lovely safe little mountain retreat? He could have just sat around Winterfell.

It was of benefit to Ned to protect his friendship/alliance with Robert, but it was not the best decision for his family (sister and nephew). EDIT: longterm I mean, yes by all means protect the infant/child Jon.

....... · 29-08-2017 03:08PM

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TerrorFirmer · 29-08-2017 03:14PM

rojito wrote: »

How is encouraging him to go to the Wall to Jon's benefit? Was it a lovely safe little mountain retreat? He could have just sat around Winterfell.

It was of benefit to Ned to protect his friendship/alliance with Robert, but it was not the best decision for his family (sister and nephew). EDIT: longterm I mean, yes by all means protect the infant/child Jon.

Because he clearly wanted to tell Jon about this true heritage once he was safe at Castle Black.

He feared without the protection that a position in the Nights Watch offered him, Jon would be killed by Robert if word ever got out.

Jon wasn't the first Targaryen at Castle Black either, as we later found out.

rojito · 29-08-2017 03:28PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Because he clearly wanted to tell Jon about this true heritage once he was safe at Castle Black.

He feared without the protection that a position in the Nights Watch offered him, Jon would be killed by Robert if word ever got out.

Jon wasn't the first Targaryen at Castle Black either, as we later found out.

I repeat, the Wall was not a safe place and Ned knew that.

He wanted to tell Jon after he was at Wall? Would the honourable thing to do not have been to let Jon come of age and then tell him so that he could decide to pursue his claim, go to the wall, or do something completely different with his life? He was happy to let Jon go to the wall without full possession of the facts of his own heritage and to pledge his life away. In doing so Ned was serving nobodys interests but his own.

Penn · 29-08-2017 03:34PM

rojito wrote: »

How is encouraging him to go to the Wall to Jon's benefit? Was it a lovely safe little mountain retreat? He could have just sat around Winterfell.

It was of benefit to Ned to protect his friendship/alliance with Robert, but it was not the best decision for his family (sister and nephew). EDIT: longterm I mean, yes by all means protect the infant/child Jon.

It wasn't about protecting his friendship with Robert, it was protecting Jon from Robert. If Jon had just sat around Winterfell, there was still a risk Robert could find out his true parentage and have him killed. That risk was always there, but at the very least Ned was at Winterfell too to protect him. With Ned going to Kings Landing, there would have been no one there who knew about Jon. Catelyn didn't even like him.

The safest place for Jon at that point was the Wall, which is where Jon wanted to go and had been asking to go. The protection of the Night's Watch would have meant Robert couldn't get to him, and Benjen would be there too.

By the start of the show, Robert had been King for 16 or 17 years, no-one really knew Joffrey, Tommen and Marcella weren't his actual children, and he had the backing of the Lannisters, the most powerful family in Westeros. At that stage, it would have been an almost impossible task that Jon would ever be able to get near the Throne even if Ned told him. Telling Jon the truth about his parentage and that he was the true heir to the Throne would have been a death sentence without Jon having given up that claim by joining the Night Watch. The only reason Jon's in with a chance of claiming the Throne now is because he literally died and was brought back to life, thereby ending his oath to the Night Watch. And he only became King in the North because the North believe he's Ned Stark's son.

Again, I think your foresight of what happens is clouding your opinion of Ned's decisions.

rojito wrote: »

I repeat, the Wall was not a safe place and Ned knew that.

He wanted to tell Jon after he was at Wall? Would the honourable thing to do not have been to let Jon come of age and then tell him so that he could decide to pursue his claim, go to the wall, or do something completely different with his life? He was happy to let Jon go to the wall without full possession of the facts of his own heritage and to pledge his life away. In doing so Ned was serving nobodys interests but his own.

Nowhere is truly safe in Westeros. But Ned knew that the people who would have wanted Jon dead the most were Robert & the Lannisters if they found out about his true parentage. So the safest place for him then, would be The Wall. He'd have forfeited his claim to the Throne and not even the King could get to him there. Sure, he'd have to fight Wildlings now and again, but Jon was a strong and capable fighter. Plus, again, Jon wanted to go to the Wall. He never would have been able to pursue his claim, and again, that would have been more dangerous than going to the Wall.

Mousewar · 29-08-2017 03:50PM

rojito wrote: »

I repeat, the Wall was not a safe place and Ned knew that.

He wanted to tell Jon after he was at Wall? Would the honourable thing to do not have been to let Jon come of age and then tell him so that he could decide to pursue his claim, go to the wall, or do something completely different with his life? He was happy to let Jon go to the wall without full possession of the facts of his own heritage and to pledge his life away. In doing so Ned was serving nobodys interests but his own.

Ned's knowledge of the wall was mostly informed by his brother's experience there and he seemed very happy with his lot. Yes, it was a bit of a miserable place for criminals and low-born who may be used as cannon-fodder but that is the lot of every army. For Jon, with his connections, there was no reason to think he wouldn't enjoy a successful career like his uncle. And, of course, that is what happened. He was Lord Commander within a few years.

Also, your understanding of 'safe' is probably coloured by the world you live in. GOT is a medieval kingdom. Nowhere was safe, as evidenced by the demise of all the Starks who didn't go to the nightswatch.

Secrets always out. The nightswatch was a final layer of protection over Jon even if someone ever did find out about him. And it was best a bastard could hope for and the cloak of the bastard was the price Jon paid for his life.

And, as for, Jon pursuing his claim to the throne. I am certain doing that would be the most dangerous course of action and the last thing his mother would have wanted. And, ultimately, it was Lyanna that Ned served by keeping the secret and keeping Jon safe.

rojito · 29-08-2017 03:55PM

Penn wrote: »

Again, I think your foresight of what happens is clouding your opinion of Ned's decisions.

Not sure where you got that, but whatever.

I guess it comes down to whether you feel Jon had a right to knowing the truth of his past or not before pledging his life away. And if his mother would have wished for him to know that truth in order to determine his own destiny.

Mousewar · 29-08-2017 03:57PM

rojito wrote: »

Not sure where you got that, but whatever.

I guess it comes down to whether you feel Jon had a right to knowing the truth of his past or not before pledging his life away. And if his mother would have wished for him to know that truth in order to determine his own destiny.

Well yeah you could argue that but ultimately it's about how Ned interpreted the instruction from Lyanna to protect him. He interpreted it his way and from all the above, his way is logical and definitely not self-serving (whether or not you think it was ultimately 'right').

Riskymove · 29-08-2017 03:58PM

rojito wrote: »

He wanted to tell Jon after he was at Wall? Would the honourable thing to do not have been to let Jon come of age and then tell him so that he could decide to pursue his claim, go to the wall, or do something completely different with his life? He was happy to let Jon go to the wall without full possession of the facts of his own heritage and to pledge his life away. In doing so Ned was serving nobodys interests but his own.

From Ned's perspective the Targaryn's were gone, wiped out by the people now ruling

As far as he knew Joffrey and others were Robert's Children

Jon learning the truth and making any claim would only, at best, result in him being killed, at worst driving a wedge into factions and possibly another war

lazybones32 · 29-08-2017 03:58PM

J. Marston wrote: »

"If Robert finds out, he'll kill him. You know he will."

Ned stained his reputation with a "bastard" to uphold a promise to his dying sister.

He was honourable as fúck.

Ned was an @rsehole and so are his kids.

Drumpot · 29-08-2017 04:01PM

rojito wrote: »

How is encouraging him to go to the Wall to Jon's benefit? Was it a lovely safe little mountain retreat? He could have just sat around Winterfell.

It was of benefit to Ned to protect his friendship/alliance with Robert, but it was not the best decision for his family (sister and nephew). EDIT: longterm I mean, yes by all means protect the infant/child Jon.

rojito · 29-08-2017 04:20PM

Mousewar wrote: »

Well yeah you could argue that but ultimately it's about how Ned interpreted the instruction from Lyanna to protect him. He interpreted it his way and from all the above, his way is logical and definitely not self-serving (whether or not you think it was ultimately 'right').

I'd be of the opinion that the only logical reason to deny Jon that knowledge would be self-interest but we can agree to disagree

Penn · 29-08-2017 04:23PM

rojito wrote: »

Not sure where you got that, but whatever.

I guess it comes down to whether you feel Jon had a right to knowing the truth of his past or not before pledging his life away. And if his mother would have wished for him to know that truth in order to determine his own destiny.

Ultimately, Ned did what he always did; what he thought was best. Not for his own selfish reasons or anything, but by that point Jon wanted to go to the Wall anyway and Ned was leaving Winterfell. It would have kept Jon safe (as one can be at the Wall) for the rest of his life, and it was a life Jon was willing to have anyway.

Jon was still extremely young at this point. Telling him about his actual parentage and claim to the Throne would have served no good purpose. Yes, it's a decision Ned made for Jon, but it was one he made for Jon's own good rather than his own. It fulfilled his promise to Lyanna to keep him safe from Robert, he knew Benjen would be there a lot of the time so he'd be with family, and the idea that Jon would ever be able to even get close to actually making a claim for the Throne was laughable. Without knowing about Jon, people still know about Dany and she technically has the best birthright claim to the Throne. But that doesn't mean anyone is rallying to her side. It was really only because of her dragons that she got to where she is.

If Ned told Jon the truth, how could Jon realistically have fought for the Throne (without knowledge of future events)? Robert was King of a united Seven Kingdoms, with two heirs who were part-Lannister (the most powerful family in Westeros). Robert had the backing of Tywin, and there was peace in the Seven Kingdoms. The North wouldn't have rallied behind Jon, most of them fought Robert's rebellion against the last Targaryens. Only if Ned himself backed Jon and called in his banners etc could they have started to form any kind of rebellion, but then, Ned would be purposefully and knowingly starting a war against Robert & the Lannisters (the Crown itself), for Jon.

Is that keeping him safe against Robert?

"Non book readers" - Season 7 Episode 7 "The Dragon and the Wolf"

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