Dairy chit chat II

Mooooo · 25-08-2017 10:38PM

Forgot to add join a discussion group,

yewtree · 25-08-2017 10:39PM

farawaygrass wrote: »

If you dairy lads and lassies were to advise someone ( a32 year old, beef and sheep farmer, 110acres) who was thinking about entering dairying for the last 2 months, what would your advice be?
-working full time at moment
-land is in one block and overall good quality.
-not making a profit without subsidies in the last 2 years.

It can be a great living.
I would do as keepgrowing says and talk to P Gowing, a very good lad and plenty of experience setting up farms. Also would try and connect yourself with a few good operators, a good mentor is worth an awful lot.
Invest money in milking stock, in my opinion calves are too far away from generating cash.
There is a huge difference in the price of a basic 16 unit versus a robot/high spec parlour, stick to the high return areas.
Best of luck with it.

whelan2 · 25-08-2017 10:39PM

simx wrote: »

Couldn't agree more

But on the other side alot of farmers wont be selling their best heifers either....

Timmaay · 25-08-2017 10:42PM

whelan2 wrote: »

See a few fresh calved ones on dd. Probably lads changing calving system. What's the interest on a stocking loan?

Not that easy to get from what I've seen, the bank would much rather give you a loan for a tractor that will lose 15k when it drives out the forecourt rather than heifers who'll pay for themselves after a year, however that 25k unsecure loan I priced up with BOI was coming in at 6.7% I think.

Mooooo · 25-08-2017 10:43PM

whelan2 wrote: »

But on the other side alot of farmers wont be selling their best heifers either....

I'd say sourcing off lads that sell cows/ heifers every year is the best bet. They have more than likely more surplus good stock every year.

farawaygrass · 25-08-2017 10:50PM

Timmaay wrote: »

Sounds like a reasonable starting point in fairness. Would your existing stock fund a milking herd? In terms of milking infrastructure, you will be looking at the likes of a 60/70k spend min after Grant for a new greenfield site, ie new shed to house the parlour, dairy etc, holding yard dairy washings tank etc. Roadways factor in 20e/m, if you have none now pencil in 10k for 500m to get ya going. With water I'd leave that down the road to upgrade, just have big enough troughs for now. When you say a new slurry tank, this just for the holding yard etc, or for winter accommodation? Would straw bedding be an option for now if it's the 2nd?

I was guessing maiden heifers would cost €1100, therefor existing stock should reasonable fun 60 heifers. TBH if I thought 60-70k after a grant wound biuld all that I would be pretty ok with that. When I said slurry tank I meant both holding yard and accommodation. See my thinking was if I converted the straw sheds we have, they are the traditional 3bay hat barn with lean-To of both sides, then I would have cubicles on the two outside bays, and a passage in the middle with scrapers. You mentioned straw-would that not be a dirty environment for mastitis?

farawaygrass · 25-08-2017 10:53PM

Mooooo wrote: »

As keepgrowing said contact an advisor and go thru the various options, existing stock may cover stock purchases. Roadway paddocks cows and parlour first port of call. Don't be afraid of a bit of debt obvious within reason just put it out for as long a period as you can get make repayments easier can always be paid off early if things go well. Also make sure to budget a few grand for farm relief etc. in plans. Dunno who's with you etc but big change from working off farm to farming full-time esp for a one man show is you will be on your own for a lot of the day so time off and away is important.

I live in a busy enough area so plenty of people around. I know what you are saying though.

farawaygrass · 25-08-2017 10:56PM

yewtree wrote: »

It can be a great living.
I would do as keepgrowing says and talk to P Gowing, a very good lad and plenty of experience setting up farms. Also would try and connect yourself with a few good operators, a good mentor is worth an awful lot.
Invest money in milking stock, in my opinion calves are too far away from generating cash.
There is a huge difference in the price of a basic 16 unit versus a robot/high spec parlour, stick to the high return areas.
Best of luck with it.

I dunno why, and this is me being very ignorant to milking systems, but I do think I would prefer the basic unit over robots alright

Mooooo · 25-08-2017 11:00PM

farawaygrass wrote: »

I was guessing maiden heifers would cost €1100, therefor existing stock should reasonable fun 60 heifers. TBH if I thought 60-70k after a grant wound biuld all that I would be pretty ok with that. When I said slurry tank I meant both holding yard and accommodation. See my thinking was if I converted the straw sheds we have, they are the traditional 3bay hat barn with lean-To of both sides, then I would have cubicles on the two outside bays, and a passage in the middle with scrapers. You mentioned straw-would that not be a dirty environment for mastitis?

Depending on when parlour could be done id buy in calf or calved stock. Milk out the gate faster. We were depopulated in early noughties, bought in mainly heifers and a few 2nd/3rd calvers. Would prob have to budget on maybe 15 to 20% not working out due to stress/ normal issues/ mixing with new stock etc. Again writing everything down and going thru with advisor is prob the way to go. Also go see a few different places.

Water John · 25-08-2017 11:02PM

A basic parlour is fine. It's a personal choice. The maiden heifers would be a good shout too.

whelan2 · 25-08-2017 11:04PM

Water John wrote: »

A basic parlour is fine. It's a personal choice. The maiden heifers would be a good shout too.

Dont know on maidens, at least with in calf heifers or cows you wont be landed with free martins.

Gawddawggonnit · 25-08-2017 11:16PM

Timmaay wrote: »

I want to put the a crop of grass straight back in after harvesting the maize, any suggestions on how to sow it, will the one pass with a power harrow do?

Is the weed control perfect in the maize?

If yes, then harvest in good conditions and it's possible to plant seeds any way you want....broadcast, chain harrow and roll...or any other more/less complicated way you want.

Gawddawggonnit · 25-08-2017 11:21PM

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Best of luck, dairying needs more people who want to be in it.

Interesting...
It does sound a little like a Ponzi scheme though doesn't it?

Don't mind me I'm stuck in an Eastern Europeean airport with five hours.

Gawddawggonnit · 25-08-2017 11:25PM

Funny enough I'm trying to off load a dairy enterprise and I couldn't give it away...and then there's guys a few miles north of me can't get enough of it. I find it hard to get my head around it.

Timmaay · 25-08-2017 11:26PM

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Interesting...
It does sound a little like a Ponzi scheme though doesn't it?

Don't mind me I'm stuck in an Eastern Europeean airport with five hours.

I'd argue that modern day life in general is a ponzi scheme ha.

Gawddawggonnit · 25-08-2017 11:35PM

Timmaay wrote: »

I'd argue that modern day life in general is a ponzi scheme ha.

Yea I suppose.

Then again all that stainless steel and high capacity driers does need a constant supply of cheap product.

As an aside, I spent a couple of days with a very wise type of guy that's been around the world in the Ag industry and we were discussing the booming butter market, and the scarcity of butter that seems to be looming.
He said that there will never be a scarcity of any Ag product...just a scarcity of *cheap* product. Sounds right.

kowtow · 25-08-2017 11:38PM

Keepgrowing wrote:

Best of luck, dairying needs more people who want to be in it.

What a brilliant way of putting it.

alps · 26-08-2017 12:13AM

Timmaay wrote: »

I want to put the a crop of grass straight back in after harvesting the maize, any suggestions on how to sow it, will the one pass with a power harrow do?

Can't imagine but the removal of maize in any kind of weather has a massive detrimental effect on the soil , when you think of 2 massive heavy machines, hauling not once but twice over each and every 4/5m wide strip.

Surely a one pass can't be the method suitable here...

Keepgrowing · 26-08-2017 10:57AM

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Interesting...
It does sound a little like a Ponzi scheme though doesn't it?

Don't mind me I'm stuck in an Eastern Europeean airport with five hours.

I'd call it more of a bandwagon than a Ponzi. I see guys getting in who are very professional in their approach with good experience and financial skills. I'm thinking tillage guys in particular with a few very good beef guys converting.

On the other hand I see established dairy guys doing a middeling job expanding when In fact they should be refining and improving what they have first. They're making a living off depreciation in reality.

We also have a large cohort of farmers circa 60 yrs old with no successor and it's in this area we'll see a fall in production I feel.

We've not hit peak milk yet but 5yrs will do it perhaps and I think environmental regs may be the largest limiting factor.

The part time boy · 26-08-2017 08:06PM

farawaygrass wrote: »

I was guessing maiden heifers would cost €1100, therefor existing stock should reasonable fun 60 heifers.

Not sure what kind of sheds you have but if you have to invest to go milking u make Nothing out of 60 cows .

The other advise i give you is spend a year working on a good dairy farm

At best you learn a lot and make less mistakes when u milk your own herd. At worst you find out that cows are not for you

Buford T. Justice XIX · 26-08-2017 08:20PM

Keepgrowing wrote: »

I'd call it more of a bandwagon than a Ponzi. I see guys getting in who are very professional in their approach with good experience and financial skills. I'm thinking tillage guys in particular with a few very good beef guys converting.

On the other hand I see established dairy guys doing a middeling job expanding when In fact they should be refining and improving what they have first. They're making a living off depreciation in reality.

We also have a large cohort of farmers circa 60 yrs old with no successor and it's in this area we'll see a fall in production I feel.

We've not hit peak milk yet but 5yrs will do it perhaps and I think environmental regs may be the largest limiting factor.

+1

In a few years, the average age of dairy farmers will be hitting 60 and the drive to expand will be gone with large numbers of them lads not being replaced when they retire. Their children will see easier livings to be made off farm and rent for the land being a nice tax-free bonus.

What's going to happen then to all the stainless steel put up which won't be used except for a week or two at peak or as a backup in case of breakdown? The costs of maintaining that is only going to be paid by the farmer again as those working outside the gate are being better protected by policies than the farmer.

Until there is some major reversal in favour of the farmer to give some portion of equality, processors can do whatever they want, knowing they won't have to pay the bill for any mistakes.

The more things change, the more they stay the same:(

Water John · 26-08-2017 08:42PM

Well, Bellview was broken down and Mallow didn't stay long going, this year. These are two big plants and the country managed without them.

Floki · 26-08-2017 08:43PM

I can see share farming becoming more of a thing in this country with young people buying in or providing labour for equity in the businesses.
Either that or people with no successors just selling up lock stock and barrel for their retirement.

I've heard tell of two brothers in their late 50's with no obvious successors converting a sizeable tillage operation to an all bells and whistles dairy enterprise.
When one of them was asked are they mad and why they did it the reply was that they had to have something to do with their time even though their father would turn in his grave if he knew there was a cow on the farm (their words).

My bet is there'll still be cows milked on the farm when they're dead and gone.
Successors who get a fully top notch no money to be spent on dairy farm have no interest in milking.
Successors who get a run down neglected loads of potential dairy farm are mad about milking.
Everyone likes to make their own stamp on this world and land and see that they've achieved something.

farawaygrass · 26-08-2017 09:30PM

Floki wrote: »

I can see share farming becoming more of a thing in this country with young people buying in or providing labour for equity in the businesses.
Either that or people with no successors just selling up lock stock and barrel for their retirement.

I've heard tell of two brothers in their late 50's with no obvious successors converting a sizeable tillage operation to an all bells and whistles dairy enterprise.
When one of them was asked are they mad and why they did it the reply was that they had to have something to do with their time even though their father would turn in his grave if he knew there was a cow on the farm (their words).

My bet is there'll still be cows milked on the farm when they're dead and gone.
Successors who get a fully top notch no money to be spent on dairy farm have no interest in milking.
Successors who get a run down neglected loads of potential dairy farm are mad about milking.
Everyone likes to make their own stamp on this world and land and see that they've achieved something.

"Everyone likes to make their own stamp on this world and land and see that they've achieved something."
That's life summed up in one!!

farawaygrass · 26-08-2017 09:33PM

The part time boy wrote: »

Not sure what kind of sheds you have but if you have to invest to go milking u make Nothing out of 60 cows .

The other advise i give you is spend a year working on a good dairy farm

At best you learn a lot and make less mistakes when u milk your own herd. At worst you find out that cows are not for you

I mightn't have been too clear- I could afford 60 heifers now right now from selling current stock but the farm could hold 100. Ya I think a bit of experience on a dairy farm would be a good step. I'm 32 though-wouldn't want to be delaying too long or I'd be working till im 90!

The part time boy · 26-08-2017 11:10PM

farawaygrass wrote: »

I mightn't have been too clear- I could afford 60 heifers now right now from selling current stock but the farm could hold 100. Ya I think a bit of experience on a dairy farm would be a good step. I'm 32 though-wouldn't want to be delaying too long or I'd be working till im 90!

Thats not old. It be the best year you ever spend . Plus u need time to get farm set up Anyway

Water John · 26-08-2017 11:16PM

By which time the female calves you bought, would be bulling heifers. Keep borrowing, as low as possible. No cash flow problem, as your still earning.
The calves are much less, disease risk also. That would be my biggest reason for not buying cows.

George Sunsnow · 26-08-2017 11:17PM

farawaygrass wrote: »

I mightn't have been too clear- I could afford 60 heifers now right now from selling current stock but the farm could hold 100. Ya I think a bit of experience on a dairy farm would be a good step. I'm 32 though-wouldn't want to be delaying too long or I'd be working till im 90!

Are there any dairy farmers near you that you get on with? You could volunteer a bit of time with them aswell as your own dairy enterprise or better still obviously be paid by them while you gain experience?
Farmers can be a funny lot sometimes and seem unapproachable because we laugh or joke have digs at one another or even fall out at times but at the nub of it,the whole bloody lot of us are decent old skins only delighted to encourage newbies and help people along
As for what heifers you could afford to buy versus what the farm could carry,walk first,plenty of time for running
Your plan when you've it drawn up should probably be a 5 year one at least anyway,at the end of which you'll have reared a lot of new stock hopefully
Best of luck

Gawddawggonnit · 27-08-2017 09:49AM

Keepgrowing wrote: »

We also have a large cohort of farmers circa 60 yrs old with no successor and it's in this area we'll see a fall in production I feel.

We've not hit peak milk yet but 5yrs will do it perhaps and I think environmental regs may be the largest limiting factor.

We're already at this stage here. Age profile of dairy farmers is around 60, with the average size of herd circa 70 - 80 cows and nobody willing to take on the drudgery. Coupled with pretty stiff environmental regs and a shortage of labour...
A report from a branch of dept. of Ag. that investigates the sustainability and future of dairy farming recently published, indicates that herd size post quota will now have to be in excess of 200 cows. That's probably the equivalent of about 400 Irish xbreds...which was also predicted by Teagasc a few years back.
I'd offload the dairy here but I can't find one single punter, even though it has a strong ebidta and is well supported with land etc. I've a neighbor who's an excellent cow man interested in forming a partnership but I'd have to expand the facilities and herd yet again. I lodged over €40k into an escrow a/c so as to apply for planning permission (yes!!) to expand. Dairy herds are treated the same as pigs or poultry as environmental risks.
The processors are well aware of this. They've a scheme to encourage young farmers to produce by offering them a guaranteed 35cpl for their first five years of production, and the only takers are the young farmers that were already continuing their fathers herd. Not one new entrant.

I honestly don't blame the younger generation for abandoning the drudgery of dairying. It'd kill me to see a son/daughter going at it for their working life when there's a squillion easier ways of earning a crust.

cute geoge · 27-08-2017 10:39AM

I think you have hit the nail on the head with the above post especially the statement that you would not want to see any of your children commit to a life of drudgery .
Expanding herd size from 80 cows is really debatable .On the one hand you decrease the drudgery with having to get extra paid labour but probably also decrease the profitability by the time labour and infrastructure costs are taking into account

Dairy chit chat II

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