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Irish Border and Brexit

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Comments

  • #662
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    The topic of this thread isn't Derry/Londonderry. It's Brexit's impact on the border. Back on topic please.


  • #663
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    If there is a hard border, surely there is the alternative for fresh goods going from Ireland to the EU to use air freight. Some regional airports, like Cork, Waterford, Shannon, might be able to offer more capacity than Dublin. Also the single market would mean no customs so no delay.

    Heavy and non-urgent goods might well go by sea to France or to other ports in Europe, but shipping perishable goods via the UK would become impossible if the expected delays become actual delays.


  • #664
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,626 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    I would presume new ferry routes from Dublin, Wexford and Cork to Europe would open up. Bypass the UK.


  • #665
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Water John wrote: »
    I would presume new ferry routes from Dublin, Wexford and Cork to Europe would open up. Bypass the UK.

    Athlone to Paris is given as 14 hrs 21 min by Google. Going by Rosslare Cherbourg ferry it comes out as 36 hrs, that is nearly an extra 24 hrs going that way. I would imagine customs going the land-bridge route might also add about the same but totally random amounts of time.

    The benefit of the Rosslare Cherbourg route might be driver rest times - 3 hours Athlone to Rosslare and 4 hrs Cherbourg to Paris. Maybe three or four extra ferries might be enough, or two ginormous ones.

    Airfreight for Cork to Paris would be a few hours transit, plus handling at the airports. Cost of this might be a problem, but a new airline - RyanFreight might make all the difference.:)


  • #666
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,626 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    I presume hauliers would develop bases in Europe. Then driver takes trailer to Rosslare and picks up incoming trailer.
    Export trailer buggied on and off. Tractor and driver picks up in Europe.
    Total waste having tractor and driver on board ferry, esp on such a longer haul.


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  • #667
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Water John wrote: »
    I presume hauliers would develop bases in Europe. Then driver takes trailer to Rosslare and picks up incoming trailer.
    Export trailer buggied on and off. Tractor and driver picks up in Europe.
    Total waste having tractor and driver on board ferry, esp on such a longer haul.

    I was thinking the same that driver need not travel the sea part. It would mitigate the extra cost of the longer sea journey, plus the reduced fuel use would be another saving.

    Looking at the logistics of it, it has some advantages, plus it would be straightforward for the EU to do some subsidy for the ferry route, given the special circumstances.


  • #668
    jm08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,338 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Just reading elsewhere that 6,000 live cattle are being shipped to Turkey in the next few days from the ports of Foynes & Waterford.

    It seems Turkey is a big market for Irish beef exports - since Sept. 2016 - 31,000 cattle have been shipped to Turkey.

    If they can get their head around those logistics, they will manage to get containers to France without crossing through Wales & England.


  • #669
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    jm08 wrote: »
    Just reading elsewhere that 6,000 live cattle are being shipped to Turkey in the next few days from the ports of Foynes & Waterford.

    It seems Turkey is a big market for Irish beef exports - since Sept. 2016 - 31,000 cattle have been shipped to Turkey.

    If they can get their head around those logistics, they will manage to get containers to France without crossing through Wales & England.
    That's a different business.  A chartered vessel bringing a single cargo to a single port is very different to commercial freight operations delivering different items to different customers in different places.


  • #670
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 11,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Water John wrote: »
    Total waste having tractor and driver on board ferry, esp on such a longer haul.

    Driver and tractor are often independent contractors... and drivers are often held responsible for everything from pick point to deliver point, so business practices would need adjusting.


  • #671
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,626 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Its done already between here and the UK. Transport co has depots in both countries.


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  • #672
    Nomis21
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Nomis21


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    Water John wrote: »
    Total waste having tractor and driver on board ferry, esp on such a longer haul.

    Driver and tractor are often independent contractors... and drivers are often held responsible for everything from pick point to deliver point, so business practices would need adjusting.

    Goods passing from Ireland to other EU contrives via UK will not be subject to UK customs. Trucks will be sealed in Ireland and travel under TIR. Seal will be broken on arrival in EU destination by relevant customs authority.


  • #673
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Nomis21 wrote: »
    Goods passing from Ireland to other EU contrives via UK will not be subject to UK customs. Trucks will be sealed in Ireland and travel under TIR. Seal will be broken on arrival in EU destination by relevant customs authority.

    Which would be fine if they can jump all the queues of trucks waiting for customs clearance. Remember all the lorries queuing from Dover for twenty miles or so recently?

    If there is no problem with custom clearance in Calais, then maybe landbridge might be OK, but I think if the Cherbourg direct route works reliably then that is the way the trucks will go. The fact that no tractor unit or driver needs to travel could be the persuader - lower fuel cost and lower wages would be quite persuasive, providing the savings are not eaten up by higher ferry charges.


  • #674
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Nomis21 wrote:
    Goods passing from Ireland to other EU contrives via UK will not be subject to UK customs. Trucks will be sealed in Ireland and travel under TIR. Seal will be broken on arrival in EU destination by relevant customs authority.


    IF the entire load is going into the EU. Many trucks do drop-offs and pick-ups in the UK en route to France or Holland. That may become impractical which could reduce freight options and increase costs.


  • #675
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Which would be fine if they can jump all the queues of trucks waiting for customs clearance. Remember all the lorries queuing from Dover for twenty miles or so recently?

    If there is no problem with custom clearance in Calais, then maybe landbridge might be OK, but I think if the Cherbourg direct route works reliably then that is the way the trucks will go. The fact that no tractor unit or driver needs to travel could be the persuader - lower fuel cost and lower wages would be quite persuasive, providing the savings are not eaten up by higher ferry charges.

    either way there will be longer delays for exports and imports whether due to customs clearance at Calais/dover/holyhead/dublin or through the longer trip through Cherbourg.


  • #676
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Mod note:

    Discussion of sectarian flier moved to the GFA thread:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057751192

    Thread title and prefix changed to clarify that this thread is only concerned with the economic consequences of Brexit vis a vis the Irish Border and matters related to the Irish/UK economies generally arising from the Brexit/Border discussions.


  • #677
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,130 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Yeah the TIR thing would not help much if customs clearance takes an age at the ports along the way.

    Perhaps the UK can be "persuaded" to actually create express lanes at UK ferry ports to allow Irish trucks to at least pass unhindered to the continent (does nothing for the part load side of course).

    I personally believe that Ireland would become the EU's West Berlin, to be saved at all costs, should the UK try to make things difficult for Ireland.


  • #678
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    murphaph wrote: »
    Yeah the TIR thing would not help much if customs clearance takes an age at the ports along the way.

    Perhaps the UK can be "persuaded" to actually create express lanes at UK ferry ports to allow Irish trucks to at least pass unhindered to the continent (does nothing for the part load side of course).

    I personally believe that Ireland would become the EU's West Berlin, to be saved at all costs, should the UK try to make things difficult for Ireland.


    I hadn't thought of that, but yes, Ireland would be the modern day equivalent of West Berlin (though not quite as isolated) in the worst case scenario.


  • #679
    Bit cynical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I hadn't thought of that, but yes, Ireland would be the modern day equivalent of West Berlin (though not quite as isolated) in the worst case scenario.
    It's going to be a bit like West Berlin but with West Berlin itself building the actual wall.


  • #680
    kniggit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17 ✭kniggit


    Bit cynical wrote: »
    It's going to be a bit like West Berlin but with West Berlin itself building the actual wall.

    More like Berlin before the wall went up;
    there was a trade agreement that fell short of a single market and customs union, so legal trade was hampered by both sides' customs checks, but Berlin's geography made smuggling difficult to prevent.
    An obvious difference is the lack of a single market and customs union in pre-'61 Germany was a mutual decision.


  • #681
    knipex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,996 ✭✭✭knipex


    Bit cynical wrote: »
    It's going to be a bit like West Berlin but with West Berlin itself building the actual wall.

    HUH ????????????


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  • #682
    Thomas__
    Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Thomas__


    Bit cynical wrote: »
    blanch152 wrote: »
    I hadn't thought of that, but yes, Ireland would be the modern day equivalent of West Berlin (though not quite as isolated) in the worst case scenario.
    It's going to be a bit like West Berlin but with West Berlin itself building the actual wall.

    By all means, your comparison sounds more like an exaggeration and everyone talking about the former Berlin Wall should have a look at historical pictures and description about how this wall was facilitated.

    I noticed yesterday that the Taoiseach was visiting some border control Station in Canada on his visit there. No compare to this Berlin Wall, but a border which appears to be a normal one in compare to all the borders which were facilitated with check points before the Schengen Agreement. It is that what one understands by the term "hard border" not that one which existed between West-Berlin and the GDR (East-Berlin) and also between the GDR and the Federal Republic of Germany before 1989/1990.

    From what I have seen by historical pictures, those check points by the BA in NI during the Troubles were far from the shape of the Communist Wall errected by the GDR. But maybe, some radical loyalistic Unionists in the Norther would be "happy" to see some new border made on the pattern like those currently built along the border of Hungary. Those residing along the border on both sides of it, are rather drearing the very thought of it.

    I think that a solution for the border problem along with the Brexit negotiations would be achieved if the UK govt would be in a better shape and wouldn´t be led by bunch of day dreamers who can´t take one step after another and work on one subject after another to provide and keep some order for and within the negotiation process. Instead, they come up with some new nonsense week after week and it just proves time and again, they the Brits have no clue and no plan about all of the issues and subjects this f**king Brexit brings along and it´s their own fault cos they act like stupid amateurs but not as a government that can be taken serious. Now the ECJ is the current Topic on which they already started to tell the people their fairy tales on how easy it´ll be to leave that and as usual hiding their real motives and intentions for why they are keen to work on it to quit it, or let´s say to "get rid" of it.

    Edit: Maybe it´ll turn out that the border issue between NI and the Republic of Ireland will end up like in that cartoon:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/picture/2017/aug/15/steve-bell-on-the-uks-brexit-negotiations-Cartoon

    But the mindset of the UK Brexit (govt) cabinet members themselves is best depicted here:
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2017/jul/27/steve-bell-on-where-the-uk-stands-with-brexit-Cartoon


  • #683
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,130 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Folks I wasn't talking about the Berlin wall at all. I was referring to the Berlin Airlift. If Ireland's access to the continent for goods is reduced by Brexit, I would expect the rest of the EU to pitch in and directly subsidise freight movements bypassing the UK. Ireland's prosperity inside the EU will become a talisman, as West Berlin was for the western Allies.


  • #684
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    murphaph wrote: »
    Folks I wasn't talking about the Berlin wall at all. I was referring to the Berlin Airlift. If Ireland's access to the continent for goods is reduced by Brexit, I would expect the rest of the EU to pitch in and directly subsidise freight movements bypassing the UK. Ireland's prosperity inside the EU will become a talisman, as West Berlin was for the western Allies.
    Afraid not.  Subsidies are illegal under both EU Competition and WTO rules.


  • #685
    grogi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,890 ✭✭✭grogi


    First Up wrote: »
    Afraid not.  Subsidies are illegal under both EU Competition and WTO rules.

    Subsidies for one particular party. Subsidies for particular service are not. For instance flights from mainland Italy to Sardegna are heavily subsidized.


  • #686
    Thomas__
    Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Thomas__


    murphaph wrote: »
    Folks I wasn't talking about the Berlin wall at all. I was referring to the Berlin Airlift. If Ireland's access to the continent for goods is reduced by Brexit, I would expect the rest of the EU to pitch in and directly subsidise freight movements bypassing the UK. Ireland's prosperity inside the EU will become a talisman, as West Berlin was for the western Allies.

    It´s a bit hard for me to follow your comparison cos the circumstances during the Berlin Airlift (1948 to 1949) were different to what one might anticipate from the effects of the post-Brexit years to come. But I can say one thing which that by all means, the EU should support the Republic of Ireland in all ways to save her from the negative developments GB will face. Maybe then, some diehard Unionists in NI will think again and consider for themselves whether a UI isn´t the better option for them as well. My reference in that goes more to those moderade minded, the fatalists among the Unionists can´t be helped anyway, but they are a minority still, and maybe a shrinking one too, once they realise that you can´t "eat the Union Jack".


  • #687
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    knipex wrote: »
    Bingo

    As I said, unless something major happens soon Heathrow as a hob is over..

    it would cost the US airlines millions to move their operations from Heathrow.

    The post I was replying to implied that the US airlines would for some reason try and block BA from flying to the US from the UK, a move which would be self defeating.

    What will happen, is that arrangements will be put in place to ensure the current arrangements will remain.


  • #688
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    grogi wrote: »
    First Up wrote: »
    Afraid not.  Subsidies are illegal under both EU Competition and WTO rules.

    Subsidies for one particular party. Subsidies for particular service are not. For instance flights from mainland Italy to Sardegna are heavily subsidized.
    Ireland will not be cut off from the rest of the EU.


  • #689
    jm08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,338 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    it would cost the US airlines millions to move their operations from Heathrow.

    The post I was replying to implied that the US airlines would for some reason try and block BA from flying to the US from the UK, a move which would be self defeating.

    What will happen, is that arrangements will be put in place to ensure the current arrangements will remain.

    Would it cost a lot? I'd imagine the Heathrow slots are quite expensive. It might also suit the US airlines if there were fewer BA planes flying to the US.

    Worth reading up on how long the difficulties, vested interests delayed Norwegian Airlines getting a licence to fly from Ireland.

    http://www.independent.ie/business/exclusive-norwegian-air-granted-licence-paving-way-for-first-ever-direct-routes-between-cork-and-us-35264435.html


  • #690
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    jm08 wrote: »
    Would it cost a lot? I'd imagine the Heathrow slots are quite expensive. It might also suit the US airlines if there were fewer BA planes flying to the US.

    Worth reading up on how long the difficulties, vested interests delayed Norwegian Airlines getting a licence to fly from Ireland.

    http://www.independent.ie/business/exclusive-norwegian-air-granted-licence-paving-way-for-first-ever-direct-routes-between-cork-and-us-35264435.html

    vested interests of the trade unions...

    Its more than just simple point to point flights, moving away from a hub would mean trying to re align local feeder flights and longer haul connecting flights.

    it would take a massive coordinated effort to make a move away from Heathrow, so the best option for the airines would be to try and keep the UK open to American airlines and vice versa


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  • #691
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 11,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    it would take a massive coordinated effort to make a move away from Heathrow, so the best option for the airines would be to try and keep the UK open to American airlines and vice versa

    Financial speaking airlines are basket cases and their best interest as Michael O'Leary pointed out is to knock up that competition anyway you can.

    The real concern is that the external flight stuff can't be patched up at the last minute between the EU and the UK as other countries are involved as well.


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