Irish Border and Brexit

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Realistic unionists, (their political leaders know it too) they know the writing is on the wall and are trying to rewrite the GFA.
'The worst thing that ever happened us' as Jim Molyneaux said.

I have googled Jim Molyneaux and that quote and the only thing that I came up with was this:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102274461&postcount=58

Nothing else.

Question 1: Is this an accurate quotation? If so, produce the exact reference. If not, why did you use quote-marks?

Question 2: How out of context is this quotation?

Capt'n Midnight

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

It's quite frightening to see how willing the hardcore Europhiles are to accept a hard border.

Let's look at the facts:
The Irish government want an open border.
The UK government want an open border.
The European Union have called for "creative solutions".

The UK Government will be publishing a position paper on the matter over the next few weeks.

Here's the paper.

Future customs arrangements: a future partnership paper

It's long on aspirations but very short on specifics.

Just do a search for "Ireland" and see if you can see anything that isn't aspirational. There are no specifics, no numbers, no timescales, no action plans, no tick boxes, no acknowledgement of the other side, no contingencies, nothing.

It's like someone brain-stormed a wish list and then wrote it down without taking on board any of the interested parties.


The clock is ticking.

Capt'n Midnight

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

You'd expect that anyone living on the border who became aware of someone doing such a thing would, if they had any sense of civic responsibility l, report the perpetrators to the Gardai or PSNI.

nevermind that , consider fuel smuggling - I still haven't found the source but when to referring to Bandit Country - the reality of the situation is

customs won't go there without the police.
the police won't go there without the army
and the army won't go there without helicopters

even from an economic point of view it doesn't work

Capt'n Midnight

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

I don't think unification with Northern Ireland is, in any way, a realistic solution. It's simply replacing one problematic issue (a possible post-Hard Brexit border) with a monumentally larger one (assuming responsibility for Northern Ireland).

It's a classic frying pan - fire situation.

It does solve other problems though. Island nations have an easier time with borders and smuggling.

Until Brexit, the differences were being reduced as we were both in the EU.

Now it's a case of whether the UK can continue to fund NI.
We can't. On our own. But the EU might be persuaded to throw a few shillings our way. It's certainly in the EU ethos.

Peregrinus

paul2013 wrote: »

I'm here with my Unionist friends and yes I call them friends because we shake hands every time we meet up for a chat and yes the know I'm from the south of Ireland and live there and the know I support a "United Ireland"

They have told me that they were looking for a county by county poll on handing back Ireland to Ireland as "If Tyrone voted for" accession to Ireland they would gladly join the Republic each of the other 5 counties would follow suit. They have stated this Mr Brokenshire who has bluntly refused to hear this.

I think it's an excellent proposal, What do you all think?

This is basically the "Border Commission" proposal from the 1920s, under which (a) the border was to be redrawn to reflect the wishes of the local populations, and (b) when this was done, the pro-Union rump of the six counties would be too small to be viable, and so would eventually be folded back in to the Free State.

It didn't work in the 1920s. It won't work now.

6541

Heard loads on this today, got me thinking what a master stroke the UK could actually pull here.

They could say we will not have a hard border and believe in technology to police this. This effectively hand the security responsibility to the EU and by default to the Irish.
So what you are stuck with is Irish customs men left as sitting ducks as opposed to the UK who have just handed the problem back to the EU.
Very smart ..

tomwaterford

6541 wrote: »

Heard loads on this today, got me thinking what a master stroke the UK could actually pull here.

They could say we will not have a hard border and believe in technology to police this. This effectively hand the security responsibility to the EU and by default to the Irish.
So what you are stuck with is Irish customs men left as sitting ducks as opposed to the UK who have just handed the problem back to the EU.
Very smart ..

Brexit on large parts was to stop immigration


Why would the Irish bother to police the border??
(Its policy of all main political parties in the free state for not a hard border)


Why would the eu be too pushed since ireland isn't in the schegen?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I have googled Jim Molyneaux and that quote and the only thing that I came up with was this:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102274461&postcount=58

Nothing else.

Question 1: Is this an accurate quotation? If so, produce the exact reference. If not, why did you use quote-marks?

Question 2: How out of context is this quotation?

I found several references to it on the first page of google.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/paisley-government-provoked-dublin-and-monaghan-bombings-619330.html
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/islandpublications/hall12-ip99.pdf

Molyneaux said it after the IRA ceasefire that snookered unionism on signing the GFA.
In the same way that the unionists that the poster was talking to are referring to a situation the see looming in front of them and what it means, he knew what the ceasefire meant.

It isn't out of context as a comparison to the state of minds here.

ThisRegard

6541 wrote: »

Heard loads on this today, got me thinking what a master stroke the UK could actually pull here.

They could say we will not have a hard border and believe in technology to police this. This effectively hand the security responsibility to the EU and by default to the Irish.
So what you are stuck with is Irish customs men left as sitting ducks as opposed to the UK who have just handed the problem back to the EU.
Very smart ..

Irish just need to worry about people entering the country and customs in that case, won't be stopping people leaving the country into the UK.

Peregrinus

ThisRegard wrote: »

Irish just need to worry about people entering the country and customs in that case, won't be stopping people leaving the country into the UK.

The Republic of Ireland is not a prison and, even if the customs were minded to stop people from leaving the Republic and crossing into the North, I do not see any legal basis on which they could do so. If the UK wants to stop people from entering the UK across the Irish border, they need to police it for that purpose which, if we take at face value their statement that they want an open border, they don't wish to do.

There's a circle here that needs to be squared. And it's for the UK to square it.

murphaph

ThisRegard wrote: »

Irish just need to worry about people entering the country and customs in that case, won't be stopping people leaving the country into the UK.

We don't really need to worry about people entering Ireland (EU) from NI or GB for that matter. The EU leaves that up to us (as we are not Schengen) as anyone travelling on to anywhere else in the EU will face full immigration controls as they do presently.

Customs is another matter. That will definitely require checks along the border, mostly this will be to ensure the safety of food in the EU. Somehow.

6541

So the UK leaves it up to the Irish to do Customs checks, Irish have to deal with the criminality (brilliant turn paddy on himself). UK deals with immigration at ports and airports in Great Britain or implements a system where people have to prove one's status before been allowed to engage in legal employment,

FrancieBrady

It's another crude play for time by presenting an unworkable solution. We are no further on on how this is all going to work in reality.

knipex

murphaph wrote: »

We don't really need to worry about people entering Ireland (EU) from NI or GB for that matter. The EU leaves that up to us (as we are not Schengen) as anyone travelling on to anywhere else in the EU will face full immigration controls as they do presently.

Customs is another matter. That will definitely require checks along the border, mostly this will be to ensure the safety of food in the EU. Somehow.

The UK Does.

All EU residents have the right to visa free travel to Ireland and if there is no border in the north straight in the UK.

The UK do not want that..

Peregrinus

6541 wrote: »

So the UK leaves it up to the Irish to do Customs checks, Irish have to deal with the criminality (brilliant turn paddy on himself). UK deals with immigration at ports and airports in Great Britain or implements a system where people have to prove one's status before been allowed to engage in legal employment,

The problem with this is that one option effectively sets up a fairly intrusive border between NI and GB which, you know, the Unionists won't like (plus it contradicts the UK's state objective of retaining the common travel area). While the other option imposes obligations on the entire British population, which is a bit tail-wagging-the-dog. And Brexiters won't favour a policy of making British people produce identity papers in order to work. And it only targets migrants who work in the regulated economy, which obviously excludes a large class who either work informally or don't work at all, so it's quite a long way from taking back control of the borders, really.

ThisRegard

Peregrinus wrote: »

The Republic of Ireland is not a prison and, even if the customs were minded to stop people from leaving the Republic and crossing into the North, I do not see any legal basis on which they could do so. If the UK wants to stop people from entering the UK across the Irish border, they need to police it for that purpose which, if we take at face value their statement that they want an open border, they don't wish to do.

Exactly. The suggestion contradicts the biggest reason for Brexit, border control. To move it to the 'mainland' opens all sorts of other issues.

tomwaterford

6541 wrote: »

So the UK leaves it up to the Irish to do Customs checks, Irish have to deal with the criminality (brilliant turn paddy on himself). UK deals with immigration at ports and airports in Great Britain or implements a system where people have to prove one's status before been allowed to engage in legal employment,

It's almost as if you think smuggling isn't occurring along the border already

tomwaterford

knipex wrote: »

The UK Does.

All EU residents have the right to visa free travel to Ireland and if there is no border in the north straight in the UK.

The UK do not want that..

I think the UK very much over thinks it's importance within the eu/world in general by thinking everyone wants to go there

(This is a widely held belief in the UK and for some reason that people want to travel their for free dental work)


Reminds me of when the refugee crisis was at its worse and UK reporters asking every single refugee they could find where they wanted to go (Germany fyi) and been a little taken back that virtually none said the UK

Chips Lovell

And we're back trying to hammer square pegs into round holes again.

After yesterday saying it wants to leave the customs union, today it's saying it wants no customs posts on the border.

The British government envisages there will be no customs posts on the Border after the United Kingdom quits the European Union.

And

It rules out any notion of having a border in the middle of the Irish Sea

Oh, and there's those two words again:

The British government also will be seeking some form of transition arrangement with the EU to allow mechanisms to be put in place to make the Border “seamless and frictionless”.

Having said that, the Irish government does see some light and seems to think the fudge will allow the British government to save face by officially leaving the customs union but de-facto remaining in under a different guise.

Senior Government figures said the customs statement was a “subtle repositioning” by the British government. London’s willingness to accept a new customs partnership with the EU is encouraging for Ireland, senior figures believe.
“This essentially means extending the customs union to incorporate the UK while it is outside of the European Union. That is effectively what the Government has been suggesting is needed for Northern Ireland for some time.

That may be a possibility but it's doubtful the EU will let it do that and pursue its own trade agreements. It'll probably be one or the other.

murphaph

knipex wrote: »

The UK Does.

All EU residents have the right to visa free travel to Ireland and if there is no border in the north straight in the UK.

The UK do not want that..

Yeah I've been saying this for months, but they seem prepared to accept the back door that Brexit was designed to firmly shut. It's obviously nonsense. The Poles that do bother going over there to work for their brothers (who may well be legal) will now do so completely illegally, travelling in and out as they please via Ireland, paying not one penny in income tax. Brexit FTW.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I found several references to it on the first page of google.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/paisley-government-provoked-dublin-and-monaghan-bombings-619330.html
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/islandpublications/hall12-ip99.pdf

Molyneaux said it after the IRA ceasefire that snookered unionism on signing the GFA.
In the same way that the unionists that the poster was talking to are referring to a situation the see looming in front of them and what it means, he knew what the ceasefire meant.

It isn't out of context as a comparison to the state of minds here.

Those links aren't to an exact quotation from Jim Molyneaux, which is what you portrayed it as. They also provide a very different context.

This reminds me of the 10-second video of a single retired UK army officer saying that the IRA weren't defeated being produced as proof of same.

What exactly did Jim Molyneaux say, when and where did he say it?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Those links aren't to an exact quotation from Jim Molyneaux, which is what you portrayed it as. They also provide a very different context.

This reminds me of the 10-second video of a single retired UK army officer saying that the IRA weren't defeated being produced as proof of same.

What exactly did Jim Molyneaux say, when and where did he say it?

Ok, whatever you say Blanch. :rolleyes:

The point was that the unionists the poster was talking to where trying to rewrite the GFA.
What they were really doing was trying to make the best of what they could see as the inevitable. Worser than the worse thing that ever happened to them, so to speak.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ok, whatever you say Blanch. :rolleyes:

The point was that the unionists the poster was talking to where trying to rewrite the GFA.
What they were really doing was trying to make the best of what they could see as the inevitable. Worser than the worse thing that ever happened to them, so to speak.

Look, I thought the quotation from Jim Molyneaux was strange, and I went back to look for the original source. I couldn't find it, but now it turns out it wasn't a quotation from him at all.

There are no implications or conclusions to be drawn from a quotation that doesn't exist or was never made.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Look, I thought the quotation from Jim Molyneaux was strange, and I went back to look for the original source. I couldn't find it, but now it turns out it wasn't a quotation from him at all.

There are no implications or conclusions to be drawn from a quotation that doesn't exist or was never made.

Whatever Blanch. Plenty have quoted it, even when Molyneaux was alive, and it has never, to my knowledge been denied. So you believe whatever makes you happiest.

*I ain't getting into an off topic, 'he said - no he didn't' rabbithole tbh.


I was simply making a comparison to a similar mindset. The realisation that a game is up.

And it was my point that those unionists the poster was talking to (the 'realistic unionists') realise the game is up and that unification is inevitable as a result of Brexit and the re-partitioning/imposition of a hard border.

paul2013

Don't get me wrong here, but we could not increase investment in Cork port and accelerate Irish goods into mainland Europe? Why is the Irish government lying down to the EU? Do you all really think the EU cares about us? It's only good for investigating how we got American companies to come to Ireland.

Nigel Farage campaigned for BREXIT and he's got his wish while we Irish will be paying his pension when he Quits the EU

knipex

paul2013 wrote: »

Don't get me wrong here, but we could not increase investment in Cork port and accelerate Irish goods into mainland Europe
?

We could. or in Dublin, or Foynes or Roslare.. Nothing stopping us.

paul2013 wrote: »

Why is the Irish government lying down to the EU? Do you all really think the EU cares about us? It's only good for investigating how we got American companies to come to Ireland.

How are the Irish government lying down ?? I hear this alot but none actually says what they mean..

paul2013 wrote: »

Nigel Farage campaigned for BREXIT and he's got his wish while we Irish will be paying his pension when he Quits the EU

You have heard about all the commotion over the so called divorce bill ??

Part of that is to cover Nigels pension

Peregrinus

paul2013 wrote: »

Don't get me wrong here, but we could not increase investment in Cork port and accelerate Irish goods into mainland Europe? Why is the Irish government lying down to the EU?

knipex wrote: »

We could. or in Dublin, or Foynes or Roslare.. Nothing stopping us.

Indeed we could. But that would do nothing at all to ameliorate the problems resulting from the creation of a hard border in Ulster. It's not goods being shipped to or from mainland Europe that will be impeded by such a border.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Whatever Blanch. Plenty have quoted it, even when Molyneaux was alive, and it has never, to my knowledge been denied. So you believe whatever makes you happiest.

.

Nope, the only person who attributes that exact quote to Molyneaux is you. You must be paraphrasing or taking out of context, look I was only interested in following up the origins of the quote as it might have been an interesting speech/interview with the man. Turns out I was looking for something that wasn't there.

paul2013 wrote: »

Don't get me wrong here, but we could not increase investment in Cork port and accelerate Irish goods into mainland Europe? Why is the Irish government lying down to the EU? Do you all really think the EU cares about us? It's only good for investigating how we got American companies to come to Ireland.

Nigel Farage campaigned for BREXIT and he's got his wish while we Irish will be paying his pension when he Quits the EU

Increase investment in Cork port, improve the roads system and change the distribution network?

If we started today, with utmost urgency, probably about five years to do it, more likely given the capital required and the long planning process, more like a decade.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Nope, the only person who attributes that exact quote to Molyneaux is you.

Point of order as you are wrong again: Here is the Derry Journal, directly quoting the man as well.
http://www.derryjournal.com/news/ira-ceasefire-anniversary-how-the-events-unfolded-20-years-ago-1-6270464

“This (the ceasefire) is the worst thing that has ever happened to us.”

The ceasefire that snookered unionism into signing the GFA that he (Molyneaux) bitterly opposed.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Point of order as you are wrong again: Here is the Derry Journal, directly quoting the man as well.
http://www.derryjournal.com/news/ira-ceasefire-anniversary-how-the-events-unfolded-20-years-ago-1-6270464



The ceasefire that snookered unionism into signing the GFA that he (Molyneaux) bitterly opposed.

Again, no primary source for that quotation and equally as importantly, it was allegedly about the IRA ceasefire not the GFA as stated by you.

I am not getting any further into this as it is going way off topic but at best this "quote" appears to be an urban myth. Let's just leave it there.