Irish Border and Brexit

Junkyard Tom · 16-08-2017 08:57PM

blanch152 wrote: »

If we were to follow that kind of logic, there would be no same-sex marriage in Roscommon/South Leitrim.

Apples and Oranges.

murphaph · 16-08-2017 09:04PM

I didn't see any concrete proposals in the UK position paper released today.

More aspirational stuff but no nuts and bolts.

Fratton Fred · 16-08-2017 09:13PM

kniggit wrote: »

In that event, British Airways would cease to be a British airline for these purposes, and would lose the right to fly between Heathrow and the US, unless Washington grants the UK a Free Skies treaty.
If the British think Europeans are taking advantage of their weakness, they're really not going to enjoy dealing with America's protectionist airline lobby.

Which would also mean Delta, US,American etc can't fly to Heathrow

steddyeddy · 16-08-2017 09:24PM

murphaph wrote: »

I didn't see any concrete proposals in the UK position paper released today.

More aspirational stuff but no nuts and bolts.

It's unworkable according to the Financial Times. The only way to avoid a hard border is for the UK to stay in the customs union.

FrancieBrady · 16-08-2017 09:30PM

murphaph wrote: »

I didn't see any concrete proposals in the UK position paper released today.

More aspirational stuff but no nuts and bolts.

Could it even be called a negotiating position? There is nowhere to negotiate to.

blanch152 · 16-08-2017 10:55PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Apples and Oranges.

In what way?

The UK votes for Brexit but some parts of it don't and it is proposed that they should have the ability to opt out of the national decision.

Ireland votes for same-sex marriage but Roscommon-Leitrim doen't so why can't it have the ability to opt out of the national decision.

Either the democratic decision applies to all or it doesn't?

FrancieBrady · 16-08-2017 11:30PM

blanch152 wrote: »

In what way?

The UK votes for Brexit but some parts of it don't and it is proposed that they should have the ability to opt out of the national decision.

Ireland votes for same-sex marriage but Roscommon-Leitrim doen't so why can't it have the ability to opt out of the national decision.

Either the democratic decision applies to all or it doesn't?

Roscommon-Leitrim is not a territory in the hiatus of a joint government agreement on governing it.

Jim2007 · 16-08-2017 11:39PM

If anything, we are getting to have our cake and eat it to a certain extent, because we will still all have the benefits of EU membership plus free movement into Britain (I presume we will allow the reverse for UK citizens, as we will still be allowed to do whatever we please with EU third countries as far as I know).

The CTA etc was specifically allowed under a protocol under the treaties as being a treaty between two EU states. As with everything else that dies with A50. A future agreement will be with the EU as is required in the case of treaties with third countries.

As the EU negotiators pointed out, there first must be a political discussion on the border etc.. as part of the exit agreement. How to implement a trade agreement is a separate issue.

kniggit · 17-08-2017 12:36AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Which would also mean Delta, US,American etc can't fly to Heathrow

They could fly from their home (the US) to Britain, just as BA could fly from their home (the EU27) to the US.
But, under the usual rules of air transport, US airlines aren't allowed to fly into the EU from a non-home country, such as Mexico, and BA wouldn't be allowed to fly from Britain to the US.

The US will be willing to negotiate a change in the rules for Britain, but they'll extract a heavy price.

Peregrinus · 17-08-2017 01:54AM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

Let me try understand your position for a moment.

The UK offer an open border which is the status quo and document some suggestions for how to maintain that.

That is what the Irish Government want. That is what the UK wants. It seems to be what you want, but yet you criticise the British government for their views?

It seems like you're projecting the United Ireland issue into how Brexit gets handled. That's fair enough but they are both different issues. A hard border would almost serve you better in this regard. It's just a shame the UK aren't asking for one.

The problem iwith the UK statement is not what they're saying. It's what they're not saying. The British paper is full of lovely aspirational stuff about being creative and flexible, but what's competely missing is any section which makes a serious attempt to explain how this is going to be viable and practical if the UK leaves the customs union and negotiates its own trade deals. If the UK agree with some third country to admit goods which are not admitted to the EU, what is to stop those goods from being shipped into the EU across the Irish border?

There's a growing view that the British stance of saying that they want an open border is just an attempt to position themselves in the blame game that will ensue when, as a direct consequence of May's decision to leave the customs union, an intrusive border is created. They have no expectation that there will be an open border; they are merely trying to create a colorable basis for claiming that an intrusive border is not their fault.

If the UK wants its aspiration for an open border to be taken seriously, its not enough to say that they want an open border. They need to be prepared to make trade, customs, etc decisions which will make an open border viable and practical. As yet, we're not really seeing much evidence of that.

Peregrinus · 17-08-2017 05:27AM

blanch152 wrote: »

In what way?

The UK votes for Brexit but some parts of it don't and it is proposed that they should have the ability to opt out of the national decision.

Ireland votes for same-sex marriage but Roscommon-Leitrim doen't so why can't it have the ability to opt out of the national decision.

Either the democratic decision applies to all or it doesn't?

Not at all; it's perfectly possible for part of a country to be in the EU and part not. That's already the case with Denmark, where Denmark proper and the Faroe Islands are in the EU, but Greenland is not. If the UK wanted to negotiate an arrangement whereby England and Wales left the Union while Scotland and Northern Ireland remained within it, there's no fundamental reason why that wouldn't be possible.

The decision that there would be a single decision applying to the whole of the UK was taken at Westminster. That was a choice; it didn't have to be that way. Given the demographics, it amounts to a decision that, whatever England wants, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will have to like it or lump it.

knipex · 17-08-2017 07:26AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Which would also mean Delta, US,American etc can't fly to Heathrow

Bingo

As I said, unless something major happens soon Heathrow as a hob is over..

Peregrinus · 17-08-2017 07:35AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Which would also mean Delta, US,American etc can't fly to Heathrow

I think the likely outcome is that AIG would split into two companies, one with a majority of UK shareholders containing BA, and the other with a majority of EU shareholders, containing the EU airlines.

oscarBravo · 17-08-2017 09:20AM

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/16/uk-government-border-proposals-ireland-brexit-position-paper

Fintan O'Toole nails it in a Guardian op-ed:

Sweet nothings are lovely while they’re being whispered in your ear. The problem is that a sweet nothing is still nothing. The British government’s long-awaited position paper on the Irish border after Brexit is really rather lovely. It tells Irish people of all political persuasions exactly what they want to hear: that there will be no physical border of any kind across the island and that free movement will go on as if nothing had happened. But behind all of these delightful reassurances, there is sweet FA.

[...]

...imagine you are in a decent job. It is reasonably paid, apparently secure and the working environment is quite amicable. Your neighbour, who you like but do not quite trust (there’s a bit of history there) comes to you with a proposition. She’s establishing an extremely risky start-up venture with a high probability of catastrophic failure. Will you join her? Well, you ask, what are the possible rewards? Ah, she says, if – against the odds – everything goes splendidly, you’ll get the same pay and conditions you have now.

Bishopsback · 17-08-2017 10:20AM

oscarBravo wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/16/uk-government-border-proposals-ireland-brexit-position-paper

Fintan O'Toole nails it in a Guardian op-ed:

+ the fact of waylaying the blame on to Europe or the Irish govt if a hard border is the result of Brexit.

knipex · 17-08-2017 10:42AM

Bishopsback wrote: »

+ the fact of waylaying the blame on to Europe or the Irish govt if a hard border is the result of Brexit.

The conservatives have been blaming Europe for over 40 years, why change the habit now.. ??

paul2013 · 17-08-2017 12:44PM

I know that this might stupid to start with, as a lot of households in the ROI receive free to air channels from the UK via a dish, does that mean we will not receive them post BREXIT? and Does it also mean that Post BREXIT that our phones will go roaming and rob us blind for crossing the invisible line?

First Up · 17-08-2017 12:55PM

paul2013 wrote: »

I know that this might stupid to start with, as a lot of households in the ROI receive free to air channels from the UK via a dish, does that mean we will not receive them post BREXIT? and Does it also mean that Post BREXIT that our phones will go roaming and rob us blind for crossing the invisible line?

Why would it? You get the signal through a dish from a satellite.
Your phone will tell you what network you are on. Same as it does now.

murphaph · 17-08-2017 01:36PM

First Up wrote: »

Your phone will tell you what network you are on. Same as it does now.

Roaming charges were completely abolished on the 15th of June, even for mobile data. Since then you could switch on data roaming as long as you stay in the EU and you'd have no worries (except on ferries that relay the mobile signal, where it can get very expensive) You can essentially use your EU phone in any EU country as if you were at home now, without buying data packs etc.

When the UK leaves it'll be right back to the bad old days with roaming charges for calls and SMS, never mind extortionate data rates. The Daily Express mob will no doubt blame this on the EU trying to prevent the plucky Brits from holidaying.

paul2013 · 17-08-2017 02:02PM

What I'm trying to say is, I was at the Giants Causeway on Tuesday and I picked up a 3 Ireland signal and then when arrived back at the visitor centre it was O2 UK, it kept jumping from one network to the next when arrived in Co. Derry.

Why is it being called Londonderry anyway like what's been scrawled across sign posts? I thought I was in the mainland UK when I kept seeing "Londonderry" and then cross into the Republic and it was Derry.

As I was flagged down by a tourist seeking Martin McGuinesses grave in Bundoran and he was looking for Londonderry and I told him he was on the wrong island if he's looking for Londonderry and I said its called Derry.

knipex · 17-08-2017 02:19PM

paul2013 wrote: »

Why is it being called Londonderry anyway like what's been scrawled across sign posts?

Because that is the official name of the city..

paul2013 wrote: »

I thought I was in the mainland UK when I kept seeing "Londonderry"

I wasn't aware there was a Londonderry on Great Britain ? (I assume by mainland UK you mean Great Britain ? The UK is after all the United Kingdom on Great Britain and Northern Ireland so if you remove Northern Ireland you are left with Great Britain )

paul2013 wrote: »

As I was flagged down by a tourist seeking Martin McGuinesses grave in Bundoran and he was looking for Londonderry and I told him he was on the wrong island if he's looking for Londonderry and I said its called Derry.

You were wrong so weren't you ??

Derry is the county and officially the city is Londonderry.

However int eh nationalist community its commonly known ad Derry while the unionist community tend to prefer Londonderry.

Either or really but denying the existence of anyplace called Londonderry or claiming it makes you think you are on the "Mainland UK" ... Well .....

As or the phones. To my knowledge no roaming charges between Ireland and the UK was in existence for years before the EU decision but in saying that teh exit of the UK from the EU could indeed change that..

I remember before there was free roaming in the UK.. There is a setting on your phone that turns off roaming.. You can also manually lock your phone to a network... worked back then so I am pretty sure it will work now..

oscarBravo · 17-08-2017 02:24PM

Ugh. Can we please not have the stupid [London]Derry argument for the billionth time?

Irishweather · 18-08-2017 07:37PM

paul2013 wrote: »

What I'm trying to say is, I was at the Giants Causeway on Tuesday and I picked up a 3 Ireland signal and then when arrived back at the visitor centre it was O2 UK, it kept jumping from one network to the next when arrived in Co. Derry.

Why is it being called Londonderry anyway like what's been scrawled across sign posts? I thought I was in the mainland UK when I kept seeing "Londonderry" and then cross into the Republic and it was Derry.

As I was flagged down by a tourist seeking Martin McGuinesses grave in Bundoran and he was looking for Londonderry and I told him he was on the wrong island if he's looking for Londonderry and I said its called Derry.

I live in County Londonderry, the official name is County Londonderry and Londonderry. It doesn't matter what the Republic recognises, Derry is not in ROI, it is in NI, which is in the UK so it is part of the UK government who decides what it is called. (County Coleraine was original name)

With the Roaming, yes you picked up O2 Ireland from across the sea in Inishowen, big deal, go inland to Coleraine or Ballymoney and you'll never pick it up. I should mention you can pick up BBC Radio Scotland from the North Coast alongside a few other Scottish Radio stations, so the fact that you picked up o2 Ireland means nothing.

As a resident, I can say with experience, that I only pick up Irish networks right on the border or on the NW Coast.

Irishweather · 18-08-2017 07:38PM

knipex wrote: »

Because that is the official name of the city..

I wasn't aware there was a Londonderry on Great Britain ? (I assume by mainland UK you mean Great Britain ? The UK is after all the United Kingdom on Great Britain and Northern Ireland so if you remove Northern Ireland you are left with Great Britain )

You were wrong so weren't you ??

Derry is the county and officially the city is Londonderry.

However int eh nationalist community its commonly known ad Derry while the unionist community tend to prefer Londonderry.

Either or really but denying the existence of anyplace called Londonderry or claiming it makes you think you are on the "Mainland UK" ... Well .....

As or the phones. To my knowledge no roaming charges between Ireland and the UK was in existence for years before the EU decision but in saying that teh exit of the UK from the EU could indeed change that..

I remember before there was free roaming in the UK.. There is a setting on your phone that turns off roaming.. You can also manually lock your phone to a network... worked back then so I am pretty sure it will work now..

No, Londonderry is the County. There is no such thing as County Derry, it was County Coleraine prior to the name change and change in land area.

Most people in the county refer to the city as Derry, your assertion about Unionists is not accurate.

Samaris · 18-08-2017 07:42PM

In the interests of not kicking off riots about something as petty as whether to call it Londonderry or Derry, both names tend to be pretty well accepted afaik.

Irishweather · 18-08-2017 07:45PM

Yes, but the official name is Londonderry, and there never was a County Derry.

oscarBravo · 18-08-2017 07:57PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Ugh. Can we please not have the stupid [London]Derry argument for the billionth time?

Question asked, question answered.

Capt'n Midnight · 18-08-2017 09:52PM

paul2013 wrote: »

I know that this might stupid to start with, as a lot of households in the ROI receive free to air channels from the UK via a dish, does that mean we will not receive them post BREXIT? and Does it also mean that Post BREXIT that our phones will go roaming and rob us blind for crossing the invisible line?

The only reason UK channels are Free To Air is that it's cheaper to pay the rights holders for the overspill to us than it is to encrypt the signals using the Free To View cards with the SKY boxes like the old days.

SaorSat uses a satellite with a tighter beam on a different band so not so much over spill and you'd need a new LNB to receive it and even then some programs like Reeling in the Years on RTE +1 are blocked.

Then again the GFA allows all island broadcasting

Chester Copperpot · 19-08-2017 08:55AM

Irishweather wrote: »

Yes, but the official name is Londonderry, and there never was a County Derry.

Daire... Thought you might call it coontie Lunnonderrie though

Irishweather · 19-08-2017 12:48PM

Why would I do that? Are you trolling?

Irish Border and Brexit

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