The biggest stumbling block for EV uptake

Falcon L · 22-08-2017 11:15AM #1

I have just had a chat with a nice chap in ESB ecars. He stated that there is no plan to increase the public charging network as there is no funding available. Also, vehicles purchased this year will be guaranteed a free home charge point, but this ends at the end of the year.

What I took from the call is that the government have lost the will to increase EV ownership. Surely they need to seriously encourage the move from the use of petrol and diesel to EVs. The transport minister, Shane Ross, has said that he wouldn't use an EV because it wouldn't suit his needs. He lives a short distance from his work place and would probably be given the free use of an EV by one of the manufacturers.

What sort of message is that giving out? Well, I really want to move over to an EV, I think that the cars available can do it for me, but the charging network just can't. This will only get worse if EV ownership increases. I read on another thread of people having to queue to use a fast charger just to get home, and being number 7 in the queue. That speaks of a network that is not fit for purpose.

With the government attitude to network expansion, this won't get better in the foreseeable future. What's next? Removal of VRT incentive? Removal of the 5K grant? In my view, a €40K equivalent of a Nissan Pulsar or Hyundai I30 would be a non runner. People will not pay €10k more to go electric.

I wanted to do the Wild Atlantic Way drive next year, using B&B accommodation, but looking at the map for CCS chargers out the west was depressing. To do that drive would probably be best in a rental car. That kind of defeats the purpose of having a car, when you have to hire another one to do what you want to do.

In the short to medium term, the future of EVs in Ireland looks bleak. I was planning to move to an Ioniq next January, but I might just stick to my oil burner until the situation looks a bit brighter.

Can someone please cheer me up with some good EV news?

Orebro · 22-08-2017 11:38AM

Who did you speak to? With all due respect to them (and they are excellent) - the guys at the other end of the phone know about as much as we do when it comes to expansion, future EV policy in Ireland etc.

IMO it's not up to ESB ecars anyway - they've done their bit in using the funds that were made available to install the charging network. It's now in the hands of the Government and the Commission for Energy Regulation amongst others to get the finger out and get working on it.

Edit: Some good news? The current crop if available EVs are excellent commuter cars when you live within range of the car, which encompasses a huge amount of people. Unfortunately this point is lost with the general public - lots of people talking about electric being the future but very few making the jump. Me? I'm delighted to be in at this early stage where it costs practically nothing to run and will have paid for itself within 3 years

Falcon L · 22-08-2017 11:51AM

Orebro wrote: »

Who did you speak to? With all due respect to them (and they are excellent) - the guys at the other end of the phone know about as much as we do when it comes to expansion, future EV policy in Ireland etc.

IMO it's not up to ESB ecars anyway - they've done their bit in using the funds that were made available to install the charging network. It's now in the hands of the Government and the Commission for Energy Regulation amongst others to get the finger out and get working on it.

Edit: Some good news? The current crop if available EVs are excellent commuter cars when you live within range of the car, which encompasses a huge amount of people. Unfortunately this point is lost with the general public - lots of people talking about electric being the future but very few making the jump. Me? I'm delighted to be in at this early stage where it costs practically nothing to run and will have paid for itself within 3 years

The bolded part just reinforces my point that the government has gone soft on the commitment to increasing EV uptake.

Your edit is exactly what I was saying. The cars are there, the charging network is not good enough to service them. Grand if you only ever wander 80kms from your house. Not good enough if you need to go further, or need to do an unforeseen journey when your car needs a charge.

dubrov · 22-08-2017 11:58AM

In a couple of years when increased range is a reality there will be no need for public chargers.

The only people using them will be regional sales reps

Falcon L · 22-08-2017 12:18PM

dubrov wrote: »

In a couple of years when increased range is a reality there will be no need for public chargers.

The only people using them will be regional sales reps

I wish my crystal ball was as good as yours. The brand new 2018 leaf looks like it will have only a few kms over the current Ioniq. With battery cost and availability in mind, where will this range come from, and will it be affordable when it's available?

22-08-2017 12:21PM

You need to correctly incentive installing chargers. Allow the owners of the chargers to make money. If there is a profit to make they will spring up every where

dubrov · 22-08-2017 12:24PM

Well if the range issue is not solved at an affordable cost there will be no massive EV uptake.
I think we are closer than you think though.

unkel · 22-08-2017 12:24PM

Falcon L wrote: »

Can someone please cheer me up with some good EV news?

If you're doing the wild atlantic way some EVs will give you a 250km range easily at the relatively low speeds you will be driving at (Ioniq, Zoe 41kWh). In most B&Bs you can use your granny cable to charge the car overnight to 100%

If you want to drive for more than 250km per day, you will need to stop for lunch somewhere and plug the car into a slow charger for say 1 or 2 hours, the latter will give you an extra 125km of range or so

Falcon L · 22-08-2017 12:30PM

unkel wrote: »

If you're doing the wild atlantic way some EVs will give you a 250km range easily at the relatively low speeds you will be driving at (Ioniq, Zoe 41kWh). In most B&Bs you can use your granny cable to charge the car overnight to 100%

If you want to drive for more than 250km per day, you will need to stop for lunch somewhere and plug the car into a slow charger for say 1 or 2 hours, the latter will give you an extra 125km of range or so

Genuine questions: do most B&Bs have the external socket to allow granny cable charging, or are you talking about a wire through a window? How will they charge for this service? I'm pretty sure they won't be prepared to pay for the (probably full rate) electricity.

Skatedude · 22-08-2017 12:39PM

dubrov wrote: »

In a couple of years when increased range is a reality there will be no need for public chargers.

The only people using them will be regional sales reps

But so many people will still need them as there is nowhere to charge them, Way too many homes don't have parking at home.

oppenheimer1 · 22-08-2017 01:02PM

Falcon L wrote: »

I have just had a chat with a nice chap in ESB ecars. He stated that there is no plan to increase the public charging network as there is no funding available. Also, vehicles purchased this year will be guaranteed a free home charge point, but this ends at the end of the year.

What I took from the call is that the government have lost the will to increase EV ownership. Surely they need to seriously encourage the move from the use of petrol and diesel to EVs. The transport minister, Shane Ross, has said that he wouldn't use an EV because it wouldn't suit his needs. He lives a short distance from his work place and would probably be given the free use of an EV by one of the manufacturers.

What sort of message is that giving out? Well, I really want to move over to an EV, I think that the cars available can do it for me, but the charging network just can't. This will only get worse if EV ownership increases. I read on another thread of people having to queue to use a fast charger just to get home, and being number 7 in the queue. That speaks of a network that is not fit for purpose.

With the government attitude to network expansion, this won't get better in the foreseeable future. What's next? Removal of VRT incentive? Removal of the 5K grant? In my view, a €40K equivalent of a Nissan Pulsar or Hyundai I30 would be a non runner. People will not pay €10k more to go electric.

I wanted to do the Wild Atlantic Way drive next year, using B&B accommodation, but looking at the map for CCS chargers out the west was depressing. To do that drive would probably be best in a rental car. That kind of defeats the purpose of having a car, when you have to hire another one to do what you want to do.

In the short to medium term, the future of EVs in Ireland looks bleak. I was planning to move to an Ioniq next January, but I might just stick to my oil burner until the situation looks a bit brighter.

Can someone please cheer me up with some good EV news?

Why should it be up to government? Why can't the other car manufacturers take a leaf out Tesla's book (pardon the pun) and set up their own charging network? The only thing government should do is legislate to ensure cross compatibility and enforce common standards.

If EV manufacturers want to sell EVs it should be up to them to provide the infrastructure, or at the very least make it profitable for others to do so. Beyond a seed network, government has no place in providing this kind of infrastructure to allow foreign corporates to cream off

grogi · 22-08-2017 01:08PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If EV manufacturers want to sell EVs it should be up to them to provide the infrastructure, or at the very least make it profitable for others to do so. Beyond a seed network, government has no place in providing this kind of infrastructure to allow foreign corporates to cream off

But the big manufacturers don't want to sell EV cars. They want to keep doing what they have been doing for years. Those who want to sell EV cars, are doing exactly what you say...

It is the governments that want the EV cars to be sold and need to push left (by introducing punitive taxes for ICE manufacturers and users, traffic limitations for ICE cars) right (by relaxing taxes on EV cars and adding other incentives) and centre (by building the charging network).

oppenheimer1 · 22-08-2017 01:19PM

grogi wrote: »

But the big manufacturers don't want to sell EV cars. They want to keep doing what they have been doing for years. Those who want to sell EV cars, are doing exactly what you say...

It is the governments that want the EV cars to be sold and need to push left (by introducing punitive taxes for ICE manufacturers and users, traffic limitations for ICE cars) right (by relaxing taxes on EV cars and adding other incentives) and centre (by building the charging network).

All of which only causes can transfer of wealth from the population to the car manufacturers.
There are ways of pushing manufacturers to EV without punitive taxation and these are the ones that should be adopted - such as strict environmental standards that force a push for new technology rather than evolution of old tech.

So if it's impossible for cars to meet euro 7, manufacturers won't stop making cars, they will shift to new technology. And if they want to gain a lead in the new market they should provide what their customers need

KCross · 22-08-2017 01:39PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

All of which only causes can transfer of wealth from the population to the car manufacturers.

Why is that? What wealth transfer are you referring to that is any different to selling an ICE and the money leaving the state?

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

There are ways of pushing manufacturers to EV without pinstripe taxation and these are the ones that should be adopters - such as strict environmental standards that force a push for new technology rather than evolution of old tech.

So if it's impossible for cars to meet euro 7, manufacturers won't stop making cars, they will shift to new technology. And if they want to gain a lead in the new market they should provide what their customers need

Sounds simple but I'd say its similar to broadband rollout. Loads of unprofitable areas left out by the incumbents.

Sometimes the market is hard to fully understand and get right particularly for new tech like EV's.

And personally I'd rather one network not a network from each manufacturer where you run into the situation they have in the UK where you need a half dozen cards for all the different networks.

Placement of the infrastructure is also key and leaving it up to foreign companies to figure it out is a losing way to go about it (think of the planning issues).

I'd be all for the manufacturers stumping up money for it, just not delivering it.

unkel · 22-08-2017 01:40PM

Falcon L wrote: »

Genuine questions: do most B&Bs have the external socket to allow granny cable charging, or are you talking about a wire through a window? How will they charge for this service? I'm pretty sure they won't be prepared to pay for the (probably full rate) electricity.

Granny cable out the window / door. A full charge will cost them about €2 on nightrate. If a lot of people started charging their EVs, I suppose they could up the price of their B&B by a euro pppn to cover this.

pwurple · 22-08-2017 01:40PM

That plastic bag tax changed behaviour pretty quickly. Increased expense is what pushes behaviour more than incentives and having to put effort in applying for grants etc. Those are all seen as gimmicks.

Back in 2012, 2013, 2014, a litre of your fuel of choice was costing you ~1.80 at the pump. That's when I was doing my EV research, our petrol cost was hitting 600 quid a month. Then, in July 2014 the OPEC nations stopped limiting production, resulting in a global glut of crude oil, bringing prices down to 1.20 at the pump. I recalculated all our numbers again, and it still made sense to go EV for us then, but the pain point that started my investigations was back in 2013.

When someone's weekly fuel bill jumps from 50 euro a week, to 100 a week, they will feel it and look for other options.

OPEC put back on some limits for some countries in June this year (not Libya or Nigeria), might start to see prices creep up this year, or the govt might slap another few pennies on it.

Orebro · 22-08-2017 01:41PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Why should it be up to government? Why can't the other car manufacturers take a leaf out Tesla's book (pardon the pun) and set up their own charging network? The only thing government should do is legislate to ensure cross compatibility and enforce common standards.

Exactly. As I was filling my car in the Toyota petrol filling station (one of many which they have built to support their cars), I was thinking exactly the same thing.

22-08-2017 01:51PM

pwurple wrote: »

................................

Back in 2012, 2013, 2014, a litre of your fuel of choice was costing you ~1.80 at the pump. ....................

I don't think it was ........

2012, €1.709 was the most I paid, approx €1.60 was typical, was unleaded

2013, €1.549 was the most I paid, approx €1.50 was typical, diesel

2014, €1.479 was the most I paid, that was typical, diesel

22-08-2017 01:54PM

Falcon L wrote: »

I wish my crystal ball was as good as yours. The brand new 2018 leaf looks like it will have only a few kms over the current Ioniq.

A few kms more than the Ioniq with an extra 12 Kwh ? don't be so sure, could be a lot more.

unkel · 22-08-2017 01:57PM

I don't think I've ever paid more than €1.60 in this country, but that doesn't take away from pwurple's point. Stick works better than carrot. Stick another €0.25 excise on diesel and €0.10 on petrol and double the diesel motor tax rates (let them complain - it will still be cheaper than 10 years ago) and double the VRT on diesels (ditto, still cheaper than 10 years ago). Zero motor tax, VAT and VRT on all EVs (but take a away the €5k grant). See how quick people will start to change their buying behaviour...

grogi · 22-08-2017 01:59PM

unkel wrote: »

I don't think I've ever paid more than €1.60 in this country, but that doesn't take away from pwurple's point. Stick works better than carrot. Stick another €0.25 excise on diesel and €0.10 on petrol and double the diesel motor tax rates (let them complain - it will still be cheaper than 10 years ago) and double the VRT on diesels (ditto, still cheaper than 10 years ago). Zero motor tax, VAT and VRT on all EVs (but take a away the €5k grant). See how quick people will start to change their buying behaviour...

I don't think we can have zero VAT though.

22-08-2017 01:59PM

It's unlikely the Government will allocate funding for the network and unlikely the ESB will invest further, even if they get complete control of it, they're already convinced the network is good enough.

The greatest issue for mass conversion to EV is primarily range then lack of EV models to choose from.

I do feel the upcoming Leaf should satisfy a hell of a lot more people, even the current Ioniq is capable of driving 300 kms with a 30 min charge on route.

macnab · 22-08-2017 02:01PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Why should it be up to government?

Because the government have the tools to make it happen.
Putting EVs on the road and taking polluting ice vehicles off the road will reduce emissions, improve health, reduce fines for not reaching green goals.
Big business has no interest in health or environmental issues so they will not progress the uptake of EVs untill there is money in it for them.

unkel · 22-08-2017 02:13PM

grogi wrote: »

I don't think we can have zero VAT though.

Good point. Unlike Norway (and the UK

), we are in the EU so we couldn't unilaterally change the rate or re-classify an EV. Could be done EU wide though, and it should.

Falcon L · 22-08-2017 02:13PM

Deleted User wrote: »

A few kms more than the Ioniq with an extra 12 Kwh ? don't be so sure, could be a lot more.

Yep, we'll find out in a couple of weeks what they say it will do.

Now, in real life driving? We'll only find that out with real life tests.

unkel · 22-08-2017 02:17PM

macnab wrote: »

Putting EVs on the road and taking polluting ice vehicles off the road will reduce emissions, improve health, reduce fines for not reaching green goals.
.

And even purely from an accounting point of view. It would make business sense for the government to invest a large net amount of money to bring our emissions down (by getting people to change to EVs) so we don't have to pay money in EU emissions fines.

oppenheimer1 · 22-08-2017 06:07PM

Orebro wrote: »

Exactly. As I was filling my car in the Toyota petrol filling station (one of many which they have built to support their cars), I was thinking exactly the same thing.

Hmm, how many state owned and operated filling station are there in Ireland?

It wasn't too big of an undertaking for private companies to build 3 separate national mobile phone networks on top of buying an expensive license so it shouldn't be a big deal for private enterprise to build a national charger network. Once users have to pay they're will be plenty of operators. Free charging is holding back the development of private operators

The government should be legislating, not interfering in the market.

knipex · 22-08-2017 06:20PM

To be fair.

its a hard sell for the government..

They are subsiding the purchase of and offering "free fuel" to people who buy relatively expensive new cars. While people on very average wages struggling to afford or get insurance on their 10 year old car are paying 50% tax !!!

knipex · 22-08-2017 06:24PM

unkel wrote: »

Granny cable out the window / door. A full charge will cost them about €2 on nightrate. If a lot of people started charging their EVs, I suppose they could up the price of their B&B by a euro pppn to cover this.

How many B&B's have night rate meters ????

irishgeo · 22-08-2017 06:27PM

knipex wrote: »

How many B&B's have night rate meters ????

you cant resell electricity anyway its against the law. so they cant charge for it.

Falcon L · 22-08-2017 06:28PM

knipex wrote: »

To be fair.

its a hard sell for the government..

They are subsiding the purchase of and offering "free fuel" to people who buy relatively expensive new cars. While people on very average wages struggling to afford or get insurance on their 10 year old car are paying 50% tax !!!

I'm not asking for free fuel. I'm happy to pay for the electricity I use. My issue is with the lack of infrastructure to enable the move towards cleaner vehicles that will benefit the country in terms of it's carbon emissions and clean air.

I'm not sure where you're going with the other stuff about insurance and 50% tax.

The biggest stumbling block for EV uptake

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