The biggest stumbling block for EV uptake

Falcon L

I have just had a chat with a nice chap in ESB ecars. He stated that there is no plan to increase the public charging network as there is no funding available. Also, vehicles purchased this year will be guaranteed a free home charge point, but this ends at the end of the year.

What I took from the call is that the government have lost the will to increase EV ownership. Surely they need to seriously encourage the move from the use of petrol and diesel to EVs. The transport minister, Shane Ross, has said that he wouldn't use an EV because it wouldn't suit his needs. He lives a short distance from his work place and would probably be given the free use of an EV by one of the manufacturers.

What sort of message is that giving out? Well, I really want to move over to an EV, I think that the cars available can do it for me, but the charging network just can't. This will only get worse if EV ownership increases. I read on another thread of people having to queue to use a fast charger just to get home, and being number 7 in the queue. That speaks of a network that is not fit for purpose.

With the government attitude to network expansion, this won't get better in the foreseeable future. What's next? Removal of VRT incentive? Removal of the 5K grant? In my view, a €40K equivalent of a Nissan Pulsar or Hyundai I30 would be a non runner. People will not pay €10k more to go electric.

I wanted to do the Wild Atlantic Way drive next year, using B&B accommodation, but looking at the map for CCS chargers out the west was depressing. To do that drive would probably be best in a rental car. That kind of defeats the purpose of having a car, when you have to hire another one to do what you want to do.

In the short to medium term, the future of EVs in Ireland looks bleak. I was planning to move to an Ioniq next January, but I might just stick to my oil burner until the situation looks a bit brighter.

Can someone please cheer me up with some good EV news?

Orebro

Who did you speak to? With all due respect to them (and they are excellent) - the guys at the other end of the phone know about as much as we do when it comes to expansion, future EV policy in Ireland etc.

IMO it's not up to ESB ecars anyway - they've done their bit in using the funds that were made available to install the charging network. It's now in the hands of the Government and the Commission for Energy Regulation amongst others to get the finger out and get working on it.

Edit: Some good news? The current crop if available EVs are excellent commuter cars when you live within range of the car, which encompasses a huge amount of people. Unfortunately this point is lost with the general public - lots of people talking about electric being the future but very few making the jump. Me? I'm delighted to be in at this early stage where it costs practically nothing to run and will have paid for itself within 3 years

Falcon L

Orebro wrote: »

Who did you speak to? With all due respect to them (and they are excellent) - the guys at the other end of the phone know about as much as we do when it comes to expansion, future EV policy in Ireland etc.

IMO it's not up to ESB ecars anyway - they've done their bit in using the funds that were made available to install the charging network. It's now in the hands of the Government and the Commission for Energy Regulation amongst others to get the finger out and get working on it.

Edit: Some good news? The current crop if available EVs are excellent commuter cars when you live within range of the car, which encompasses a huge amount of people. Unfortunately this point is lost with the general public - lots of people talking about electric being the future but very few making the jump. Me? I'm delighted to be in at this early stage where it costs practically nothing to run and will have paid for itself within 3 years

The bolded part just reinforces my point that the government has gone soft on the commitment to increasing EV uptake.

Your edit is exactly what I was saying. The cars are there, the charging network is not good enough to service them. Grand if you only ever wander 80kms from your house. Not good enough if you need to go further, or need to do an unforeseen journey when your car needs a charge.

dubrov

In a couple of years when increased range is a reality there will be no need for public chargers.

The only people using them will be regional sales reps

Falcon L

dubrov wrote: »

In a couple of years when increased range is a reality there will be no need for public chargers.

The only people using them will be regional sales reps

I wish my crystal ball was as good as yours. The brand new 2018 leaf looks like it will have only a few kms over the current Ioniq. With battery cost and availability in mind, where will this range come from, and will it be affordable when it's available?

You need to correctly incentive installing chargers. Allow the owners of the chargers to make money. If there is a profit to make they will spring up every where

dubrov

Well if the range issue is not solved at an affordable cost there will be no massive EV uptake.
I think we are closer than you think though.

unkel

Falcon L wrote: »

Can someone please cheer me up with some good EV news?

If you're doing the wild atlantic way some EVs will give you a 250km range easily at the relatively low speeds you will be driving at (Ioniq, Zoe 41kWh). In most B&Bs you can use your granny cable to charge the car overnight to 100%

If you want to drive for more than 250km per day, you will need to stop for lunch somewhere and plug the car into a slow charger for say 1 or 2 hours, the latter will give you an extra 125km of range or so

Falcon L

unkel wrote: »

If you're doing the wild atlantic way some EVs will give you a 250km range easily at the relatively low speeds you will be driving at (Ioniq, Zoe 41kWh). In most B&Bs you can use your granny cable to charge the car overnight to 100%

If you want to drive for more than 250km per day, you will need to stop for lunch somewhere and plug the car into a slow charger for say 1 or 2 hours, the latter will give you an extra 125km of range or so

Genuine questions: do most B&Bs have the external socket to allow granny cable charging, or are you talking about a wire through a window? How will they charge for this service? I'm pretty sure they won't be prepared to pay for the (probably full rate) electricity.

Skatedude

dubrov wrote: »

In a couple of years when increased range is a reality there will be no need for public chargers.

The only people using them will be regional sales reps

But so many people will still need them as there is nowhere to charge them, Way too many homes don't have parking at home.

oppenheimer1

Falcon L wrote: »

I have just had a chat with a nice chap in ESB ecars. He stated that there is no plan to increase the public charging network as there is no funding available. Also, vehicles purchased this year will be guaranteed a free home charge point, but this ends at the end of the year.

What I took from the call is that the government have lost the will to increase EV ownership. Surely they need to seriously encourage the move from the use of petrol and diesel to EVs. The transport minister, Shane Ross, has said that he wouldn't use an EV because it wouldn't suit his needs. He lives a short distance from his work place and would probably be given the free use of an EV by one of the manufacturers.

What sort of message is that giving out? Well, I really want to move over to an EV, I think that the cars available can do it for me, but the charging network just can't. This will only get worse if EV ownership increases. I read on another thread of people having to queue to use a fast charger just to get home, and being number 7 in the queue. That speaks of a network that is not fit for purpose.

With the government attitude to network expansion, this won't get better in the foreseeable future. What's next? Removal of VRT incentive? Removal of the 5K grant? In my view, a €40K equivalent of a Nissan Pulsar or Hyundai I30 would be a non runner. People will not pay €10k more to go electric.

I wanted to do the Wild Atlantic Way drive next year, using B&B accommodation, but looking at the map for CCS chargers out the west was depressing. To do that drive would probably be best in a rental car. That kind of defeats the purpose of having a car, when you have to hire another one to do what you want to do.

In the short to medium term, the future of EVs in Ireland looks bleak. I was planning to move to an Ioniq next January, but I might just stick to my oil burner until the situation looks a bit brighter.

Can someone please cheer me up with some good EV news?

Why should it be up to government? Why can't the other car manufacturers take a leaf out Tesla's book (pardon the pun) and set up their own charging network? The only thing government should do is legislate to ensure cross compatibility and enforce common standards.

If EV manufacturers want to sell EVs it should be up to them to provide the infrastructure, or at the very least make it profitable for others to do so. Beyond a seed network, government has no place in providing this kind of infrastructure to allow foreign corporates to cream off

grogi

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If EV manufacturers want to sell EVs it should be up to them to provide the infrastructure, or at the very least make it profitable for others to do so. Beyond a seed network, government has no place in providing this kind of infrastructure to allow foreign corporates to cream off

But the big manufacturers don't want to sell EV cars. They want to keep doing what they have been doing for years. Those who want to sell EV cars, are doing exactly what you say...

It is the governments that want the EV cars to be sold and need to push left (by introducing punitive taxes for ICE manufacturers and users, traffic limitations for ICE cars) right (by relaxing taxes on EV cars and adding other incentives) and centre (by building the charging network).

oppenheimer1

grogi wrote: »

But the big manufacturers don't want to sell EV cars. They want to keep doing what they have been doing for years. Those who want to sell EV cars, are doing exactly what you say...

It is the governments that want the EV cars to be sold and need to push left (by introducing punitive taxes for ICE manufacturers and users, traffic limitations for ICE cars) right (by relaxing taxes on EV cars and adding other incentives) and centre (by building the charging network).

All of which only causes can transfer of wealth from the population to the car manufacturers.
There are ways of pushing manufacturers to EV without punitive taxation and these are the ones that should be adopted - such as strict environmental standards that force a push for new technology rather than evolution of old tech.

So if it's impossible for cars to meet euro 7, manufacturers won't stop making cars, they will shift to new technology. And if they want to gain a lead in the new market they should provide what their customers need

KCross

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

All of which only causes can transfer of wealth from the population to the car manufacturers.

Why is that? What wealth transfer are you referring to that is any different to selling an ICE and the money leaving the state?

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

There are ways of pushing manufacturers to EV without pinstripe taxation and these are the ones that should be adopters - such as strict environmental standards that force a push for new technology rather than evolution of old tech.

So if it's impossible for cars to meet euro 7, manufacturers won't stop making cars, they will shift to new technology. And if they want to gain a lead in the new market they should provide what their customers need

Sounds simple but I'd say its similar to broadband rollout. Loads of unprofitable areas left out by the incumbents.

Sometimes the market is hard to fully understand and get right particularly for new tech like EV's.

And personally I'd rather one network not a network from each manufacturer where you run into the situation they have in the UK where you need a half dozen cards for all the different networks.

Placement of the infrastructure is also key and leaving it up to foreign companies to figure it out is a losing way to go about it (think of the planning issues).

I'd be all for the manufacturers stumping up money for it, just not delivering it.

unkel

Falcon L wrote: »

Genuine questions: do most B&Bs have the external socket to allow granny cable charging, or are you talking about a wire through a window? How will they charge for this service? I'm pretty sure they won't be prepared to pay for the (probably full rate) electricity.

Granny cable out the window / door. A full charge will cost them about €2 on nightrate. If a lot of people started charging their EVs, I suppose they could up the price of their B&B by a euro pppn to cover this.

pwurple

That plastic bag tax changed behaviour pretty quickly. Increased expense is what pushes behaviour more than incentives and having to put effort in applying for grants etc. Those are all seen as gimmicks.

Back in 2012, 2013, 2014, a litre of your fuel of choice was costing you ~1.80 at the pump. That's when I was doing my EV research, our petrol cost was hitting 600 quid a month. Then, in July 2014 the OPEC nations stopped limiting production, resulting in a global glut of crude oil, bringing prices down to 1.20 at the pump. I recalculated all our numbers again, and it still made sense to go EV for us then, but the pain point that started my investigations was back in 2013.

When someone's weekly fuel bill jumps from 50 euro a week, to 100 a week, they will feel it and look for other options.

OPEC put back on some limits for some countries in June this year (not Libya or Nigeria), might start to see prices creep up this year, or the govt might slap another few pennies on it.

Orebro

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Why should it be up to government? Why can't the other car manufacturers take a leaf out Tesla's book (pardon the pun) and set up their own charging network? The only thing government should do is legislate to ensure cross compatibility and enforce common standards.

Exactly. As I was filling my car in the Toyota petrol filling station (one of many which they have built to support their cars), I was thinking exactly the same thing.

pwurple

pwurple wrote: »

................................

Back in 2012, 2013, 2014, a litre of your fuel of choice was costing you ~1.80 at the pump. ....................

I don't think it was ........

2012, €1.709 was the most I paid, approx €1.60 was typical, was unleaded

2013, €1.549 was the most I paid, approx €1.50 was typical, diesel

2014, €1.479 was the most I paid, that was typical, diesel

Falcon L

Falcon L wrote: »

I wish my crystal ball was as good as yours. The brand new 2018 leaf looks like it will have only a few kms over the current Ioniq.

A few kms more than the Ioniq with an extra 12 Kwh ? don't be so sure, could be a lot more.

unkel

I don't think I've ever paid more than €1.60 in this country, but that doesn't take away from pwurple's point. Stick works better than carrot. Stick another €0.25 excise on diesel and €0.10 on petrol and double the diesel motor tax rates (let them complain - it will still be cheaper than 10 years ago) and double the VRT on diesels (ditto, still cheaper than 10 years ago). Zero motor tax, VAT and VRT on all EVs (but take a away the €5k grant). See how quick people will start to change their buying behaviour...

grogi

unkel wrote: »

I don't think I've ever paid more than €1.60 in this country, but that doesn't take away from pwurple's point. Stick works better than carrot. Stick another €0.25 excise on diesel and €0.10 on petrol and double the diesel motor tax rates (let them complain - it will still be cheaper than 10 years ago) and double the VRT on diesels (ditto, still cheaper than 10 years ago). Zero motor tax, VAT and VRT on all EVs (but take a away the €5k grant). See how quick people will start to change their buying behaviour...

I don't think we can have zero VAT though.

It's unlikely the Government will allocate funding for the network and unlikely the ESB will invest further, even if they get complete control of it, they're already convinced the network is good enough.

The greatest issue for mass conversion to EV is primarily range then lack of EV models to choose from.

I do feel the upcoming Leaf should satisfy a hell of a lot more people, even the current Ioniq is capable of driving 300 kms with a 30 min charge on route.

macnab

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Why should it be up to government?

Because the government have the tools to make it happen.
Putting EVs on the road and taking polluting ice vehicles off the road will reduce emissions, improve health, reduce fines for not reaching green goals.
Big business has no interest in health or environmental issues so they will not progress the uptake of EVs untill there is money in it for them.

unkel

grogi wrote: »

I don't think we can have zero VAT though.

Good point. Unlike Norway (and the UK ), we are in the EU so we couldn't unilaterally change the rate or re-classify an EV. Could be done EU wide though, and it should.

Falcon L

Deleted User wrote: »

A few kms more than the Ioniq with an extra 12 Kwh ? don't be so sure, could be a lot more.

Yep, we'll find out in a couple of weeks what they say it will do.

Now, in real life driving? We'll only find that out with real life tests.

unkel

macnab wrote: »

Putting EVs on the road and taking polluting ice vehicles off the road will reduce emissions, improve health, reduce fines for not reaching green goals.
.

And even purely from an accounting point of view. It would make business sense for the government to invest a large net amount of money to bring our emissions down (by getting people to change to EVs) so we don't have to pay money in EU emissions fines.

oppenheimer1

Orebro wrote: »

Exactly. As I was filling my car in the Toyota petrol filling station (one of many which they have built to support their cars), I was thinking exactly the same thing.

Hmm, how many state owned and operated filling station are there in Ireland?

It wasn't too big of an undertaking for private companies to build 3 separate national mobile phone networks on top of buying an expensive license so it shouldn't be a big deal for private enterprise to build a national charger network. Once users have to pay they're will be plenty of operators. Free charging is holding back the development of private operators

The government should be legislating, not interfering in the market.

knipex

To be fair.

its a hard sell for the government..

They are subsiding the purchase of and offering "free fuel" to people who buy relatively expensive new cars. While people on very average wages struggling to afford or get insurance on their 10 year old car are paying 50% tax !!!

knipex

unkel wrote: »

Granny cable out the window / door. A full charge will cost them about €2 on nightrate. If a lot of people started charging their EVs, I suppose they could up the price of their B&B by a euro pppn to cover this.

How many B&B's have night rate meters ????

irishgeo

knipex wrote: »

How many B&B's have night rate meters ????

you cant resell electricity anyway its against the law. so they cant charge for it.

Falcon L

knipex wrote: »

To be fair.

its a hard sell for the government..

They are subsiding the purchase of and offering "free fuel" to people who buy relatively expensive new cars. While people on very average wages struggling to afford or get insurance on their 10 year old car are paying 50% tax !!!

I'm not asking for free fuel. I'm happy to pay for the electricity I use. My issue is with the lack of infrastructure to enable the move towards cleaner vehicles that will benefit the country in terms of it's carbon emissions and clean air.

I'm not sure where you're going with the other stuff about insurance and 50% tax.

knipex

Falcon L wrote: »

I'm not sure where you're going with the other stuff about insurance and 50% tax.

Relatively poor people who struggle to afford 10 year old cars are having their taxes used to subsidise new cars for relatively well off people who can afford new cars.

jamesthepeach

The cynic in me says that the government have seen the damage that will be done to their tax take and are silently slinking back into their hole.

macnab

knipex wrote: »

Relatively poor people who struggle to afford 10 year old cars are having their taxes used to subsidise new cars for relatively well off people who can afford new cars.

We would all be struggling more if no one bought new cars.

Falcon L

knipex wrote: »

Relatively poor people who struggle to afford 10 year old cars are having their taxes used to subsidise new cars for relatively well off people who can afford new cars.

I can afford a new car because I worked hard all my life, paying ridiculous tax rates. I also struggled with over 15% mortgage interest rates. None of that has anything to do with the country needing to clean up it's act and reduce carbon emissions, or face large fines, which will have to be paid by those same 50% taxpayers.

Wait until the 10 year old diesel cars the poor people are driving are taxed out of existence. Then they'll be very happy that there's a stock of second hand EV's that the likes of me will have eaten the depreciation on.

Mooooo

How long would it take to charge to get a usable amount of range out of a charge. You'd think if they had space a service station on a tourist route or rural area could install one or two and perhaps charge a nominal fee per hour or half hour or whatever €2 etc. Or even pubs along the route that do food may get a dinner customer out of it as well, esp in the off season when Irish customers would be the ones to target for an autumn break or whatever

Orebro

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Hmm, how many state owned and operated filling station are there in Ireland?

It wasn't too big of an undertaking for private companies to build 3 separate national mobile phone networks on top of buying an expensive license so it shouldn't be a big deal for private enterprise to build a national charger network. Once users have to pay they're will be plenty of operators. Free charging is holding back the development of private operators

The government should be legislating, not interfering in the market.

Charging is free and yet there are still a tiny amount of EVs on the road, and you think there is space for someone to invest huge sums on a FCP infrastructure? Pretty obvious you don't run a business anyway.

grogi

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Hmm, how many state owned and operated filling station are there in Ireland?

It wasn't too big of an undertaking for private companies to build 3 separate national mobile phone networks on top of buying an expensive license so it shouldn't be a big deal for private enterprise to build a national charger network. Once users have to pay they're will be plenty of operators. Free charging is holding back the development of private operators

The government should be legislating, not interfering in the market.

And how many private electricity networks are there? How much water pipes was build with private money?

knipex

knipex wrote: »

Relatively poor people who struggle to afford 10 year old cars are having their taxes used to subsidise new cars for relatively well off people who can afford new cars.

Well if us early adopters didn't buy these new electric cars then there wouldn't be the cracking bargains available 2nd hand that there are today making them affordable to a lot more people.

namloc1980

Until there is a home charging solution for those of us who don't have off street parking then EV take-up will be slow. In particular in urban built up areas where EVs would be fantastically beneficial, alot of people don't have off street parking/private area to charge up. Is there any good news on that front?

unkel

namloc1980 wrote: »

Is there any good news on that front?

Yes there is. Home charging really isn't 100% needed anymore and hopefully becoming less so soon enough. Lidl have started to install fast charging points at their supermarkets, free for customers to use. Park, hook up, do your 20-25 minutes shop and come back to a fully charged car. No need to bother with home charging

There are over 100 free fast chargers in the EU (excellent quality triple head ABB chargers, these are better than the efaced triple head chargers the ESB have in Ireland). The first Irish one was installed and fully operational last month. Hopefully many more will follow and many more other commercial entities will follow Lidl's lead

namloc1980

unkel wrote: »

Yes there is. Home charging really isn't 100% needed anymore and hopefully becoming less so soon enough. Lidl have started to install fast charging points at their supermarkets, free for customers to use. Park, hook up, do your 20-25 minutes shop and come back to a fully charged car. No need to bother with home charging

There are over 100 free fast chargers in the EU (excellent quality triple head ABB chargers, these are better than the efaced triple head chargers the ESB have in Ireland). The first Irish one was installed and fully operational last month. Hopefully many more will follow and many more other commercial entities will follow Lidl's lead

The issue I see with that is unless there's a massive increase in charge points there's always the chance you show up at Lidl (or anywhere) and the charge point is occupied. You're kinda banjaxed then if you've no fallback option at home.

jamesthepeach

unkel wrote: »

Yes there is. Home charging really isn't 100% needed anymore and hopefully becoming less so soon enough. Lidl have started to install fast charging points at their supermarkets, free for customers to use. Park, hook up, do your 20-25 minutes shop and come back to a fully charged car. No need to bother with home charging

There are over 100 free fast chargers in the EU (excellent quality triple head ABB chargers, these are better than the efaced triple head chargers the ESB have in Ireland). The first Irish one was installed and fully operational last month. Hopefully many more will follow and many more other commercial entities will follow Lidl's lead

Where are these lidl ones ones planned?

thierry14

jamesthepeach wrote: »

Where are these lidl ones ones planned?

Haven't heard of this either

Going to buy a Leaf 2 in Jan and Lidl will be my first choice now lol

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Yes there is. Home charging really isn't 100% needed anymore and hopefully becoming less so soon enough. Lidl have started to install fast charging points at their supermarkets, free for customers to use. Park, hook up, do your 20-25 minutes shop and come back to a fully charged car. No need to bother with home charging

It is 100% needed and will be for quite some time to come.

I don't want to drive anywhere to charge. I want to plug in at let it do its thing while I sleep and it's also better for the grid. If the way of the future is large charging stations only and you have 100s of thousand of cars visiting these during the day you will screw the grid.

Why would you think home charging isn't part of the future? You're sticking to your ICE petrol station way of thinking!

thierry14

KCross wrote: »

It is 100% needed and will be for quite some time to come.

I don't want to drive anywhere to charge. I want to plug in at let it do its thing while I sleep and it's also better for the grid. If the way of the future is large charging stations only and you have 100s of thousand of cars visiting these during the day you will screw the grid.

Why would you think home charging isn't part of the future? You're sticking to your ICE petrol station way of thinking!

Charge in 2 -3 mins vs 8 hours

Why would home charging be the future

KCross

thierry14 wrote: »

Charge in 2 -3 mins vs 8 hours

Why would home charging be the future

When you have a charger AND a battery that can do that come back to me!

Either way, my car is idle for at least 8hrs every night so I'd still consider the diversion to a station and the 2-3 mins a waste of my time.

Some people will have to do it because they don't have off street parking but for those that can I can't see a good reason to do it the hard way.

pwurple

I haven't charged at home since January... and I travel between around 10 industrial areas in the Cork region. The last of them put in a company charger last year. All my charging is done at work, while I am inside the building working away.

positron

jamesthepeach wrote:

Where are these lidl ones ones planned?

There's a fast charger in the newly refurbished Lidl here in Drogheda. Not sure if there is one in the newly built Lidl in Portmarnock, will check this weekend.

thierry14

KCross wrote: »

When you have a charger AND a battery that can do that come back to me!

Either way, my car is idle for at least 8hrs every night so I'd still consider the diversion to a station and the 2-3 mins a waste of my time.

Some people will have to do it because they don't have off street parking but for those that can I can't see a good reason to do it the hard way.

Don't think they are too far with liquid cooling.

8 hours does you now, but when 100kwh+ batteries become the standard, you'll need a lot more than 8 hour's.

Governments will push us towards commercial charging, I am sure of that.

KCross

thierry14 wrote: »

Don't think they are too far with liquid cooling.

8 hours does you now, but when 100kwh+ batteries become the standard, you'll need a lot more than 8 hour's.

Governments will push us towards commercial charging, I am sure of that.

Why would most people need 100kWh+?

You can see what's possible today with 28kWh. 100kWh EVs will exist of course for high end cars and SUVs but the majority won't come close.

Standard domestic connection will be able to deliver 90kWh+ every night. How many people will need more than that?
If you do, just upgrade your connection to 16kVA, 20kVA, etc.

Not sure about governments being able to push us towards anything. The market and the manufacturers are likely to dictate more than govt's.... in the medium term at least.