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Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

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  • #962
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,290 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    psinno wrote: »
    Only if you are from an alternative universe where being anti illegal immigration makes you a fascist and people constantly go on about how terrible Germany was in the 30s because of its strict immigration policies.

    You can pretend that the 'MAGA' crowd are solely motivated by a desire for a sensible immigration policies.

    Trump's campaign and presidency has been almost a textbook example of an ultra right wing authoritarian populist. If you're still a Trump fan after this weekend, then you've got nowhere to hide. You are on the side of fascism. If you have just changed your mind on Trump after this week, then you need to ask yourself, what took you so long? The signs have been there, in broad view.

    The fact that the U.S. has it's system of checks and balances to limit executive power is the only reason Trump hasn't been able to achieve any of his horrific policies to the extent that he wants them (yet).

    Hitler never had more than about 30% support in Germany. But he was prepared to bully his way into power. Trump has about 30% support, and these are the core of his base that would still support him even if he shot a baby in the face in broad daylight.

    Trump is an extremely dangerous man. He almost started a nuclear war last week, and that's not even the main thing we're talking about this week.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #963
    red ears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭red ears


    Saruhashi wrote: »

    I'm getting a bad feeling here that criticism of left wing violence is being seen as support for right wing violence.

    That was what the reaction to Trump showed this week anyway. It was like how dare he even mention the hooded black clad group armed with bats, rocks and pepper spray.


  • #964
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,290 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Saruhashi wrote: »
    Maybe I am wrong here but I thought there were pretty strong links between Antifa groups and support for communism?
    Anyone can be involved in the Antifa movement, as long as they are against white supremacism and fascism. That is the start, the middle and the end of the antifa movement. It only exists to fight white supremacists and fascists.

    Most of the people who march under antifa are also activists for whatever ideology they have, many are anarchists or libertarian socialists. Many are social democrats, some are communists of the various hues but usually the more authoritarian communists will march under the banner of their own party, because their political action is aimed at building a movement that eventually puts their party into power. Antifa are not interested in power, they only exist to oppose fascists.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #965
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Whataboutery.

    Mod Note:

    You specifically asked about deaths by left wing activists and when one was referred to you call it Whataboutery. Please read the charter before posting again.


  • #966
    Saruhashi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 591 ✭✭✭Saruhashi


    According to CNN the terror attack in Charlottesville may have inspired the attack in Barcelona yesterday.



    @ 0:25 There will be questions about copycats. There will be questions if what happened in Barcelona is at all a copycat version of what happened in Charlottesville...

    So, if I'm getting this right these guys are genuinely wondering if the white supremacist terrorists in the US may have actually inspired ISIS to use vehicles as part of their terror attacks in Europe?

    I'm starting to think all this political debate might not be worth the effort.


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  • #967
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,067 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Saruhashi wrote: »
    According to CNN the terror attack in Charlottesville may have inspired the attack in Barcelona yesterday.



    @ 0:25 There will be questions about copycats. There will be questions if what happened in Barcelona is at all a copycat version of what happened in Charlottesville...

    So, if I'm getting this right these guys are genuinely wondering if the white supremacist terrorists in the US may have actually inspired ISIS to use vehicles as part of their terror attacks in Europe?

    I'm starting to think all this political debate might not be worth the effort.

    Deeply strange.


  • #968
    marcus001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭marcus001


    Saruhashi wrote: »
    According to CNN the terror attack in Charlottesville may have inspired the attack in Barcelona yesterday.



    @ 0:25 There will be questions about copycats. There will be questions if what happened in Barcelona is at all a copycat version of what happened in Charlottesville...

    So, if I'm getting this right these guys are genuinely wondering if the white supremacist terrorists in the US may have actually inspired ISIS to use vehicles as part of their terror attacks in Europe?

    I'm starting to think all this political debate might not be worth the effort.

    It's highly likely that Wolf is not ignorant, he was just looking for an excuse to tie this attack in with the running story. There's nothing the media loves more than a series of terrorist attacks to keep you glued to the screen.


  • #969
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Danzy wrote: »
    They are not the same, but they are not as different as you make out either.

    They are closer to each other than they are to the rest of society.

    Neither have anything positive to offer most people, if you are middle class and you have an authoritarian streak, find that you need to control people, and get turned on by the idea of violence then you'll find a home in Antifa or in militant far right, the ideology is 2nd to that in most cases.

    That doesn't mean that all those that protest or organize against blatant fascists are assholes, no their movement is being hijacked by people like Antifa.

    I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you've never actually talked face to face to anyone involved with the AntiFa movement

    I'll also guess that you've never talked to anyone who would have been on the nazi march

    They are completely different kinds of people.

    Lots of trump supporters don't like antifa because antifa call them fascists. Well, when you're going around saying 'make america great again' and 'build the wall' and all the other white nationalist jingoism that Trump campaigned on, then guess what, you're a fascist.

    We used to have to dance around that language, but Trump has revealed himself this week (not for the first time, there is nothing new in his support for David Duke and white supremacists and the people he chooses to surround himself with)
    Wrong, Trump supporters don,t like Antifa labeling them all Trump supporters as " fascists " in an effort to demonize them then violently attacking them after demonizing them.

    ""  Lots of trump supporters don't like antifa because antifa call them fascists. Well, when you're going around saying 'make america great again' and 'build the wall' and all the other white nationalist jingoism that Trump campaigned on, then guess what, you're a fascist. ""

    [font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The slogan "" build the wall "" is in reference to supporting tighter/more secure borders, are you trying to says its somehow "" fascist ""  to want your countries borders to be as secure as they possibly can ?  [/font]
    [font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If so I would point out many other countries secure their borders too also.[/font]

    [font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] ( Exhibit 1 ) the Indian/Pakistan Border.[/font]

    [font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]425497.png[/font]

    [font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]( Exhibit 2 ) The Border between North & South Korea.[/font]

    [font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]425498.png[/font]


  • #970
    marcus001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭marcus001


    I would question the logic of society allowing the same people who assault fascists to decide who is a fascist.


  • #971
    WinnyThePoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,417 ✭✭✭WinnyThePoo


    marcus001 wrote: »
    I would question the logic of society allowing the same people who assault fascists to decide who is a fascist.

    Emm. We can you use our own eyes. The white supremacists and neo Nazi's are fascists. There is no argument against that.


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  • #972
    marcus001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭marcus001


    WinnyThePoo wrote: »
    Emm. We can you use our own eyes. The white supremacists and neo Nazi's are fascists. There is no argument against that.

    Right but it doesn't end there does it? What about the Trump supporters getting their heads smashed in at rallies a year ago before the alt-right really came out of the woodwork?

    If it wasn't for people further to the right of Trump coming to the fore now I suspect Antifa would go "find" some "fascists" or failing that invent them and go kick the **** out of them.


  • #973
    WinnyThePoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,417 ✭✭✭WinnyThePoo


    marcus001 wrote: »
    Right but it doesn't end there does it? What about the Trump supporters getting their heads smashed in at rallies a year ago before the alt-right really came out of the woodwork?

    If it wasn't for people further to the right of Trump coming to the fore now I suspect Antifa would go "find" some "fascists" or failing that invent them and go kick the **** out of them.

    Sure. Imagining things Is fun.

    Antifa are a reaction to fascists. Reaction, not cause.


  • #974
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    marcus001 wrote: »
    Right but it doesn't end there does it? What about the Trump supporters getting their heads smashed in at rallies a year ago before the alt-right really came out of the woodwork?

    If it wasn't for people further to the right of Trump coming to the fore now I suspect Antifa would go "find" some "fascists" or failing that invent them and go kick the **** out of them.

    Was that before or after Trump offered to pay legal fees to people willing to "knock the crap" out of protestors?


  • #975
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Danzy wrote: »
    Actually you are incorrect. I have met Antifa members in America and German,  I haven't met too many Nazis, they tend to be rare at meetings or campaigns run by left wing movements.

    Ok, so when you were talking to the AntiFa members (or more accurately members of autonomous groups associated with the antifa movement) did any of them ever express a political view that indicates that they want to take political power and impose their will on others?

    Antifa are explicitly anti authoritarian. Their tactics are to use direct action to protest people and events that they view as fascist and white supremacist

    Are they pacifists? No, the movement doesn't have any leadership, there is no committee that discusses tactics or which protests to attend. Antifa is a banner that us used by autonomous activist groups when their purpose is to directly challenge white supremacists and fascists.

    The rise of the far right is making Antifa activism more prominent, but also more important.
    "" Their tactics are to use direct action to protest people and events that they view as fascist "" 

    [font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The phrase "" direct action "" is a code for unprovoked violence/ a code to riot in the streets, which they done at Trumps Inaugration + at the recent G20 summit,  they view lots of people as " fascist " who aren,t " fascist " such as Milo + Ann Coulter,  + if anyone says anything tighter borders etc they view that as " fascist "  too .[/font]


  • #976
    marcus001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭marcus001


    WinnyThePoo wrote: »
    Sure. Imagining things Is fun.

    Antifa are a reaction to fascists. Reaction, not cause.

    The more radical the left gets the more radical right gets the more radical the left gets and on and on and on...


  • #977
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,290 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    marcus001 wrote: »
    The more radical the left gets the more radical right gets the more radical the left gets and on and on and on...

    Nazis are about as radical as it gets

    They already idolise Hitler

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #978
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    WinnyThePoo wrote: »
    Antifa are a reaction to fascists. Reaction, not cause.

    In other news chickens claim they are a reaction to eggs and not the cause as sometimes claimed. Fowl experts remain divided but note chickens and eggs are often associated with self sustaining systems where one reinforces the existence of the other.


  • #979
    Wildlife Actor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 491 ✭✭Wildlife Actor


    Saruhashi wrote: »
    According to CNN the terror attack in Charlottesville may have inspired the attack in Barcelona yesterday.



    @ 0:25 There will be questions about copycats. There will be questions if what happened in Barcelona is at all a copycat version of what happened in Charlottesville...

    So, if I'm getting this right these guys are genuinely wondering if the white supremacist terrorists in the US may have actually inspired ISIS to use vehicles as part of their terror attacks in Europe?

    I'm starting to think all this political debate might not be worth the effort.

    Ah now, that's more than a stretch and CNN are only feeding the Trump troll with it. ISIS were first in the pitch with car ramming.


  • #980
    WinnyThePoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,417 ✭✭✭WinnyThePoo


    marcus001 wrote: »
    The more radical the left gets the more radical right gets the more radical the left gets and on and on and on...

    Are you really trying to argue the left is responsible for the neo Nazi's and white supremacist?.
    ...
    Nope. The people who proudly wave swastikas and wear white cloaks are wholly and only responsible for themselves.


  • #981
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    Love nor Money wrote: »
    Ah now, that's more than a stretch and CNN are only feeding the Trump troll with it. ISIS were first in the pitch with car ramming.

    I think car/vehicle attacks have been happening in Israel/Palestine for about a decade.


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  • #982
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,290 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    "" Their tactics are to use direct action to protest people and events that they view as fascist "" 

    [font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The phrase "" direct action "" is a code for unprovoked violence/ a code to riot in the streets, which they done at Trumps Inaugration + at the recent G20 summit,  they view lots of people as " fascist " who aren,t " fascist " such as Milo + Ann Coulter,  + if anyone says anything tighter borders etc they view that as " fascist "  too .[/font]

    No, Direct action is the name for civil disobedience and activism that takes action to prevent something rather than just protesting and hoping that the state will listen and do what is needed.

    Examples of direct action include blockading the oil pipeline, damaging war planes at civilian airports, blocking streets to prevent meetings like the G20 from running smoothly.

    The civil rights movement relied on direct action to end segregation and to fight for equality in the US. So did the sufferagettes fighting for the vote to be extended to women.

    Direct action often results in clashes with the police, but then, the police, as agents of the state, are often on the wrong side of the argument (eg in the war against Iraq, the Irish police protected the illegal use of Shannon to transport weapons soldiers and even to facilitate 'extraordinary rendition')

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #983
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,067 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    marcus001 wrote: »
    Right but it doesn't end there does it? What about the Trump supporters getting their heads smashed in at rallies a year ago before the alt-right really came out of the woodwork?

    If it wasn't for people further to the right of Trump coming to the fore now I suspect Antifa would go "find" some "fascists" or failing that invent them and go kick the **** out of them.

    This is the concern.

    The list of people that can be labeled fascist is very large and not just confined to the right.

    The amount of times I have seen Swampies call SF'ers fascists, Workers Party people talk about Labour as neo-fascists and on and on.

    When you have a deranged priest class like that, they'll keep looking for sinners to castigate and it will be the nearest at hand that they go for.

    At least when these whack jobs are focusing on each other they are not coming after ordinary people.

    Maybe this is better described as being beyond Left and right but about those who are political cultists. It is a minority of both sides of the political spectrum.


  • #984
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    Akrasia wrote: »
    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    Wrong, Trump supporters don,t like Antifa labeling them all Trump supporters as " fascists " in an effort to demonize them then violently attacking them after demonizing them.
    I'm going to distinguish between trump voters, and trump supporters.

    Not all the people who voted for Trump are 'alt right' (a euphamism for fascists)

    But the trump supporters, the people who go to his rallies and laugh and cheer when he says the media are all 'fake news' and that most mexican immigrants are rapists, and all muslims are potential terrorists and that the police should beat up protesters and his own supporters should beat up protesters and that he supported torture and murdering the families of suspected terrorists, and when he praises totalitarian leaders like Erdogan, Duterte, Vladimir Putin.....

    yeah, these trump supporters are great people who only want to live in peace and harmony, and not return to the 'good old days' of white supremacists running the country for the benefit of the white 'race'
    Trump has different supporters from different backgrounds/ different class/different race etc here are some of them.

    https://twitter.com/TheLeftIsRacist/status/897052131747876864

    https://twitter.com/_Makada_/status/898345348053073922

    https://twitter.com/sweetatertot2/status/898272984124735488
    People support him for various reasons be it his stance on Immigration or his stance for lower taxes, not all his supporters support him for one dimensional reasons .


  • #985
    Help!!!!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    Brian? wrote: »
    Do you disagree with the conclusion drawn?

    Yes because theres a video of the white supremacists standing on the hill being hit by all sorts thrown by BLM & Antifa


  • #986
    20Cent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭20Cent


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    People support him for various reasons be it his stance on Immigration or his stance for lower taxes, not all his supporters support him for one dimensional reasons .

    Who's saying all trump supporters are nazi's?
    No one.
    Deflects from the rights nazi problem though.

    How come they aren't weeding out the nazi's in their midst and disassociating themselves from them?

    Like when all muslims are expected to defeat ISIS.


  • #987
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    marcus001 wrote: »
    Right but it doesn't end there does it? What about the Trump supporters getting their heads smashed in at rallies a year ago before the alt-right really came out of the woodwork?

    If it wasn't for people further to the right of Trump coming to the fore now I suspect Antifa would go "find" some "fascists" or failing that invent them and go kick the **** out of them.
    The alt right predate Trump's bid for the presidency by years and have been a central part of it pretty much from day one, so I'm not sure where you're getting this notion from.


  • #988
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,276 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Locked for review


  • #989
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,276 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Reopening. Lots of cards and deleted posts for people who've clearly ignored repeated reminders to a.) read the forum charter or b.) not drag in off-topic incidents or c.) generalisations such as equating all Trump supporters with Nazis.

    We'll move on to thread banning people if they can't have reasonable debate on the subject.

    Thanks


  • #990
    marcus001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭marcus001


    Billy86 wrote: »
    The alt right predate Trump's bid for the presidency by years and have been a central part of it pretty much from day one, so I'm not sure where you're getting this notion from.

    Yes but they've only come out of the woodwork since he won. Before Trump they never held meetings in public on a scale they do now.


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  • #991
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    marcus001 wrote: »
    Yes but they've only come out of the woodwork since he won. Before Trump they never held meetings in public on a scale they do now.

    The Tea Party movement?


This discussion has been closed.
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