Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

Brian? · 16-08-2017 07:40PM

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

"" What is it about Antifa that makes them fascists in your view? ""

I know you directed that question at another poster, But I ll sum it up as best as I can why I see them as fascists.

( 1 ) Refusal to accept democratic outcome of a election + violently targeting opposition.

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]In the last year political violence against Trump supporters has being normalised people have physically attacked for supporting Trump/wearing Trump t shirts/ physically attacked for wanting to go hear pro trump speakers at their local college/local uni/ pro Trump speakers have being targeted with violence + riots in the streets to prevent their speaking engagement going ahead, Antifa rioted in the streets when Trump was inaugurated Imagine back when Obama was 1st inaugurated in 2009, imagine if an extreme right wing group rioted in the streets , imagine if an extreme right wing group violently attacked Obama supporters everytime there was a pro Obama rally, the extreme right wing group would be called out for being fascists + rightly so. [/font]

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[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]( 2 ) Wearing of mask while engaging in their actions.[/font]

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]What other extremists wears masks ? I can think of two the KKK + Isis.[/font]

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[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]( 3 ) Recent G20 riots.[/font]

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]If a right wing group rioted in the streets at the recent G20 they d be called out as fascists.[/font]

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]( 4 ) Using Violence/Intimidation To Stop Debate[/font]

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]This has been seen both here + in the Usa a debate or a public meeting is called to discuss an Issue be it Immigration policy or a right wing speaker is invited to give a speech at a college, in the past they have disrupted meetings + rioted in the street to stop stuff from going ahead as seen in Berkeley a few months ago, take for example the abortion debate/repeal etc, abortion is another touchy issue, but lets ask the question when was the last time pro life groups used violence/Intimidation to stop debates on abortion from going ahead ? if you use violence to stop democratic debates from taking place you re a fascisr in my eyes .[/font]

All very interesting.

Simple test to see if someone is a fascist:

Do they want to create an authoritarian state based on a fascist model? If the answers no, then they're not fascists.

Antifa fail this test. Using violence for political means DOES NOT make you a fascist. Simples.

Castigate them for using violence all you want, I'll probably agree. But stop calling them fascists.

Help!!!! · 16-08-2017 07:42PM

For Reals wrote: »

You are. By (yourself and Trump) putting white supremacists on a par with people who protested against hate.

Trying to blame 'antifa' for the rise in the ALT-Right racists is frankly obscene.
These white supremacists are fighting against equality and using fear and hate to do so. How exactly are both sides 'as bad as each other'? If one side win out we may see concentration camps and butchering. If the other win out we'll see equality.
As for the 'antifa', they are a group you have issue with and that's fine.

Protesting against hate by using violence & hate speech against that group. By using homemade flame throwers, by throwing m80s inside glass bottles are just some of the things that put them on a par
And again whether you agree or disagree with them the alt right had a permit to march so legally they were in the right

Brian? · 16-08-2017 07:43PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

I think most share their opposition of fascists but they calling everyone that they disagree with fascists & then attacking them is not the way to go about it

I agree. I don't think they do that though. The probably over use the term fascist, in fact I'm pretty sure they do.

This doesn't make them fascists though. Can we agree?

pitifulgod · 16-08-2017 07:43PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

I think most share their opposition of fascists but they calling everyone that they disagree with fascists & then attacking them is not the way to go about it

You're describing anti fascists as fascists. The definition of fascism is included below

FASCISM often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition. - Merriam Webster Dictionary

So firstly, people who advocate Nazism are the very definition of fascist. I'm not really sure how you've leaped to a conclusion that they aren't. You object to them being called fascist while claim the anti-fascist movement which clearly don't meet the definition of fascist are in fact the fascists.

Nobody who attends a rally where people are marching and shouting "Blood and Soil", racist and antisemitic epitaphs can claim not to be supportive of a fascist goal. There is not a single person who attended that rally that are innocent. And this isn't just Left wing people who are saying this. Examples include Paul Ryan, Mike Pence, Will Hurd....

For Reals · 16-08-2017 07:44PM

ezra_ wrote: »

Interesting point:
Does one man, dressed as Hitler, doing the nazi / hitler thing and attending a rally make it a Nazi rally?

Where is the tipping point?

I guess we'll never really know now, since the facts will have been twisted to suit either right or left's side, but just how many people were at the rally, flying swastikas and chanting Juden raus?

FYI: If you are in a march organised by white supremacists and some fellow marchers are waving swastikas and everyone seems a might pasty in complexion, you just might be...in a racist Nazi march.

There's only one side, the morally right side.
You are either for the white supremacists or against. It really is that clear cut.

The media didn't create the video/photos/murder. There were no 'nice' Nazis minding their own. There are no good, innocent white supremacists.

Help!!!! · 16-08-2017 07:45PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

OK, enough with the mealy-mouthed crap. It's been posted before, but it's worth showing again:

This was a fascist rally. If you try to claim it wasn't, you're just making yourself look stupid.

Really fascist frogs?? They were protesting the taking down of the General Lee statue.Baked alaska is not a nazi or fascist. Richard Spencer yes but the others?

rossie1977 · 16-08-2017 07:47PM

Clearly people don't understand what fascism is. Protesting or wearing masks doesn't define you as a fascist.

The traits of fascism are

*Overpowering nationalism
*Distain for human rights
*Identifying an enemy and blaming all the problems on that enemy
*Rampant Sexism
*Control over the mass media
*Religion and government intertwined
*Supremacy of military.
*Obsession with national security
*Protection of corporate power
* Suppression of labour power and unions
*Distain for the arts and intellectuals
*Obsession with crime and punishment
*Rampant cronyism and corruption
*Creating fraudulent elections

Brian? · 16-08-2017 07:48PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Protesting against hate by using violence & hate speech against that group. By using homemade flame throwers, by throwing m80s inside glass bottles are just some of the things that put them on a par

On a par with gassing 8 million Jews, gypsies, gays, political opponents etc. ? That's what the Nazis did. That's what these people are endorsing by wearing Nazi regalia.

And again whether you agree or disagree with them the alt right had a permit to march so legally they were in the right

Legally they were in the right. Morally they weren't.

Why are you standing up for white supremacists and Nazis?

Help!!!! · 16-08-2017 07:48PM

Brian? wrote: »

I agree. I don't think they do that though. The probably over use the term fascist, in fact I'm pretty sure they do.

This doesn't make them fascists though. Can we agree?

OK they are not actual fascists but they are acting very much like fascists
Its just the same as calling the people at the rally fascists when not all were fascists & not all act like fascists

ezra_ · 16-08-2017 07:50PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

OK, enough with the mealy-mouthed crap. It's been posted before, but it's worth showing again:

This was a fascist rally. If you try to claim it wasn't, you're just making yourself look stupid.

Sorry - I'm not claiming it was a fascist rally, or that it wasn't.

But a poster that has cartoon green frogs on it doesn't confirm that the majority of people out there were fascists/racists.

I lived in the States and went to some Conservative / Republican events (housemate was a leading light in the Mass. Republican movement) and there were often yokel nutjobs there. Take some pictures of those and you'd swear it was a Confederate re-enactment, but the vast majority of people there were just out to support of the oppression of women and the furtherment of God / American morals in everyday life (you can tell I'm not a fan).

Re Charlottesvile, I've seen photos put up on some sites of small groups of people, who aren't in the main body of the march, wearing Nazi regalia and the like.

I've seen many more photos of people in ordinary clothes holding torches - bit freaky but that doesn't make it a fascist march.

I don't agree with much of what was being said at the march, but I seriously don't agree with labeling anyone who is on the American right a fascist, and the tone here seems to be if you don't denounce the right, you are AltRight.

bodice ripper · 16-08-2017 07:51PM

Help!!!! wrote:

Really fascist frogs?? They were protesting the taking down of the General Lee statue.Baked alaska is not a nazi or fascist. Richard Spencer yes but the others?

The poster literally has fasces on it.

Brian? · 16-08-2017 07:52PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Really fascist frogs?? They were protesting the taking down of the General Lee statue.Baked alaska is not a nazi or fascist. Richard Spencer yes but the others?

Are you being wilfully blind? There's a silhouette of a man giving a Fascist salute on the poster.

Brian? · 16-08-2017 07:53PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

OK they are not actual fascists but they are acting very much like fascists
Its just the same as calling the people at the rally fascists when not all were fascists & not all act like fascists

The people at the rally had Swastika flags!!!!!!!!

20Cent · 16-08-2017 07:53PM

Dr Cornel West credits antifa with saving his and some other clergy members lives in Charlottesville after they were attacked by torch wielding nazis.

https://www.democracynow.org/2017/8/14/cornel_west_rev_toni_blackmon_clergy

Help!!!! · 16-08-2017 07:54PM

pitifulgod wrote: »

You're describing anti fascists as fascists. The definition of fascism is included below

So firstly, people who advocate Nazism are the very definition of fascist. I'm not really sure how you've leaped to a conclusion that they aren't. You object to them being called fascist while claim the anti-fascist movement which clearly don't meet the definition of fascist are in fact the fascists.

Nobody who attends a rally where people are marching and shouting "Blood and Soil", racist and antisemitic epitaphs can claim not to be supportive of a fascist goal. There is not a single person who attended that rally that are innocent. And this isn't just Left wing people who are saying this. Examples include Paul Ryan, Mike Pence, Will Hurd....

Firstly I am honoured that your first post was directed to me.
I do not object to nazi's being called fascists because they are indeed fascists but antifa are running around like the brown shirts of the 1930s stopping peoples free speech, attacking people who have different views to them etc so maybe by definition they are not fascists but they are acting like fascists
So when black lives matters march & black people start calling white " crackers " & end the white race etc. All who are marching can collectively be held up as racists?

Brian? · 16-08-2017 07:55PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Firstly I am honoured that your first post was directed to me.
I do not object to nazi's being called fascists because they are indeed fascists but antifa are running around like the brown shirts of the 1930s stopping peoples free speech, attacking people who have different views to them etc so maybe by definition they are not fascists but they are acting like fascists
So when black lives matters march & black people start calling white " crackers " & end the white race etc. All who are marching can collectively be held up as racists?

Why are you so intent of defending the fascists?

Help!!!! · 16-08-2017 07:56PM

rossie1977 wrote: »

Clearly people don't understand what fascism is. Protesting or wearing masks doesn't define you as a fascist.

The traits of fascism are

*Overpowering nationalism
*Distain for human rights
*Identifying an enemy and blaming all the problems on that enemy
*Rampant Sexism
*Control over the mass media
*Religion and government intertwined
*Supremacy of military.
*Obsession with national security
*Protection of corporate power
* Suppression of labour power and unions
*Distain for the arts and intellectuals
*Obsession with crime and punishment
*Rampant cronyism and corruption
*Creating fraudulent elections

And some of those can be identified with antifa

Help!!!! · 16-08-2017 07:58PM

Brian? wrote: »

On a par with gassing 8 million Jews, gypsies, gays, political opponents etc. ? That's what the Nazis did. That's what these people are endorsing by wearing Nazi regalia.

Legally they were in the right. Morally they weren't.

Why are you standing up for white supremacists and Nazis?

& carrying communist flags say you endorse the millions more people killed by the commies
Not standing up for them but I'm not going to give the other side a free pass when they were in the wrong as well

marcus001 · 16-08-2017 07:58PM

rossie1977 wrote: »

Clearly people don't understand what fascism is. Protesting or wearing masks doesn't define you as a fascist.

The traits of fascism are

*Overpowering nationalism
*Distain for human rights
*Identifying an enemy and blaming all the problems on that enemy
*Rampant Sexism
*Control over the mass media
*Religion and government intertwined
*Supremacy of military.
*Obsession with national security
*Protection of corporate power
* Suppression of labour power and unions
*Distain for the arts and intellectuals
*Obsession with crime and punishment
*Rampant cronyism and corruption
*Creating fraudulent elections

People get confused with their words sometimes. Antifa are not fascist but the way they behave is very fascist-like.

Help!!!! · 16-08-2017 08:00PM

Brian? wrote: »

Are you being wilfully blind? There's a silhouette of a man giving a Fascist salute on the poster.

Thats one of the statues they want or have taken down. Didnt realise the confederates were nazis too:eek:

Help!!!! · 16-08-2017 08:02PM

Brian? wrote: »

The people at the rally had Swastika flags!!!!!!!!

Ok so at an antifa rally you say they are mainly anarchists? So when the commie flag wavers turn up does that mean they have all turned commie?

The Legend Of Kira · 16-08-2017 08:02PM

Fellow who was misidentified as being at the rally has gone into hiding .

https://twitter.com/RedAlert/status/897888191327424515

Help!!!! · 16-08-2017 08:05PM

20Cent wrote: »

Dr Cornel West credits antifa with saving his and some other clergy members lives in Charlottesville after they were attacked by torch wielding nazis.

https://www.democracynow.org/2017/8/14/cornel_west_rev_toni_blackmon_clergy

Yeah I saw those 2 lying on the news earlier saying that the violence came only from one side. Also they were trying to stop the alt right from getting to the park that they had a permit for. The police was meant to be already there keeping the two sides apart but the mayor & his racist, black supremacy supporting vice mayor had told the cops to stand down

Danzy · 16-08-2017 08:06PM

marcus001 wrote: »

People get confused with their words sometimes. Antifa are not fascist but the way they behave is very fascist-like.

There are differences of definition but no one could blame the average punter for calling them fascists even though they are not. The intent in the label is correct but the definition maybe not.

The difference if either ever came to power would be negligible.

Help!!!! · 16-08-2017 08:06PM

Brian? wrote: »

Why are you so intent of defending the fascists?

Why cant I have a different opinion than you?
Have you looked at the video evidence of what happened in Charlottesville?

marcus001 · 16-08-2017 08:07PM

Brian? wrote: »

Are you being wilfully blind? There's a silhouette of a man giving a Fascist salute on the poster.

Pretty sure that's just a statue. Plenty of statues like that have outstretched hands, not necessarily a salute. None of the other statues have a hand like that.

Me thinks you're reaching a bit.

20Cent · 16-08-2017 08:08PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Yeah I saw those 2 lying on the news earlier saying that the violence came only from one side. Also they were trying to stop the alt right from getting to the park that they had a permit for. The police was meant to be already there keeping the two sides apart but the mayor & his racist, black supremacy supporting vice mayor had told the cops to stand down

Everyone in lying except the nazis who are famous for their honesty.

Manic Moran · 16-08-2017 08:10PM

If you are talking about the second statue from the right in the poster, that is the Jefferson Davis monument which was take down in New Orleans a few months ago.

I'm not so sure about what looks like a tank behind the troops and..um.. frogs.. though...

pitifulgod · 16-08-2017 08:10PM

ezra_ wrote: »

Sorry - I'm not claiming it was a fascist rally, or that it wasn't.

But a poster that has cartoon green frogs on it doesn't confirm that the majority of people out there were fascists/racists.

I lived in the States and went to some Conservative / Republican events (housemate was a leading light in the Mass. Republican movement) and there were often yokel nutjobs there. Take some pictures of those and you'd swear it was a Confederate re-enactment, but the vast majority of people there were just out to support of the oppression of women and the furtherment of God / American morals in everyday life (you can tell I'm not a fan).

Re Charlottesvile, I've seen photos put up on some sites of small groups of people, who aren't in the main body of the march, wearing Nazi regalia and the like.

I've seen many more photos of people in ordinary clothes holding torches - bit freaky but that doesn't make it a fascist march.

I don't agree with much of what was being said at the march, but I seriously don't agree with labeling anyone who is on the American right a fascist, and the tone here seems to be if you don't denounce the right, you are AltRight.

Okay going through the list.

Mike Enoch - White Nationalist
Richard Spencer - White Supremacist
Jason Kessler - Organiser and white supremacist
Augustus Ivictus - He was widely criticized within the Libertarian Party for his use of fascist imagery and history of white nationalist associations, also a Holocaust Denier
Christopher Cantwell - Features prominently in Vice Documentary on Charlottesville, described dream of an ethnostate, happy out with people being murdered for his ideals too.
Matt Heimbach - Leads White Nationalist group
Johnny Monoxide - Appears to write for the Daily Stormer, a Nazi publication who will be picketing the funeral of Heather Heyer
Pax Dickinson - got fired from as CTO of Business insider for rape jokes and racism
Michael Hill - White supremacist

Two people that from the list are not self described white supremacists or white nationalists. Plenty advocate the slaughter of non white people. So, no we are not misrepresenting what that rally was. The president and some users on here are happily vilifying the counter protesters. Counter protest is not illegal and frankly it should be applauded when in opposition to fascism.

oscarBravo · 16-08-2017 08:11PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Why cant I have a different opinion than you?

Of course you can. But if that opinion involves making excuses for fascists, downplaying fascism or pretending that a fascist rally wasn't a fascist rally, you're going to be called on it.

Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

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