Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

Danzy · 16-08-2017 06:43PM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Fascist have in the past and continue to spread their ideology.
It doesn't spread past a tiny tiny minority because their ideas are so abhorrent.
Antifa falsely attributes this to their violent actions, they're largely irrelevant.

Yes they do, they use violence and intimation in pursuit of a political aim.

If the Extreme Alt Right had 10 million dollars to spend on a marketing campaign they would create Antifa.

1000 assholes out of a country of 310 million gather and it is made out as if it is bigger than some wars have been.

A toxic spat between privileged twats who love street fighting and being edgy and who want meaning in their life and look back to past ideologies, the most blood drenched of them, to give them justification.

Tony EH · 16-08-2017 06:44PM

mynamejeff wrote: »

Once again , the point is that no debate was allowed because of aggressiveness from one side

You're wrong.

mynamejeff wrote: »

do you want me to post the links of meter installers and garda being attacked harassed and intimidated by violent aggressive and thuggish protesters ?

The vast, vast, VAST majority of protests passed off peacefully and most protesters simply didn't pay their bills. Job done.

mynamejeff wrote: »

you seem fixated of the gay marriage issue . it was the least contested of the many examples i offered ill agree but my point still stands as i made it.

You brought it up in a completely false equivalent.

ezra_ · 16-08-2017 06:44PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's bizarre that this needs to be spelled out to anyone with the intelligence to type a post without drooling on their keyboard, but:

It was a fascist rally.

If you genuinely believe that it's acceptable to march alongside people waving actual f*cking swastikas, while thinking "I'm not a Nazi, but..." then you need to have a long, hard look at yourself followed by a bit of historical research.

Non-fascists don't attend fascist rallies. "Fine people" don't attend fascist rallies. Stop making excuses for fascists. That's a completely bizarre comparison. Are you seriously arguing that your average Nazi is a decent bloke, and that there are just a few bad apples?

I don't know what's going on in the world. There are people on an Irish website defending fascists. They'll claim they're not, but hey: I guess we're in a post-fact world.

Interesting point:
Does one man, dressed as Hitler, doing the nazi / hitler thing and attending a rally make it a Nazi rally?

Where is the tipping point?

I guess we'll never really know now, since the facts will have been twisted to suit either right or left's side, but just how many people were at the rally, flying swastikas and chanting Juden raus?

mynamejeff · 16-08-2017 06:46PM

wes wrote: »

Against armed fascists, and not civilians.

how come the armed facists didnt open fire ?

seems like they would have right ?

Christy42 · 16-08-2017 06:47PM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Fascist have in the past and continue to spread their ideology.
It doesn't spread past a tiny tiny minority because their ideas are so abhorrent.
Antifa falsely attributes this to their violent actions, they're largely irrelevant.

Yes they do, they use violence and intimation in pursuit of a political aim.

Um it has on several occasions and caused millions upon millions of deaths... They are currently attempting to spread their ideas again and have some sympathetic ears in the white house and a president largely unwilling to come out strongly against them.

Even without spreading the cause further far right terrorists have caused multiple deaths (of course in each case they are simply called mentally unwell). See mosque in Canada, this rally, the church in Charlotteville. ..

jackofalltrades · 16-08-2017 06:47PM

wes wrote: »

Against armed fascists, and not civilians.

So you agree that they are terrorists.
But now you're claiming that the people that they target aren't civilians?

Help!!!! · 16-08-2017 06:48PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's bizarre that this needs to be spelled out to anyone with the intelligence to type a post without drooling on their keyboard, but:

It was a fascist rally.

If you genuinely believe that it's acceptable to march alongside people waving actual f*cking swastikas, while thinking "I'm not a Nazi, but..." then you need to have a long, hard look at yourself followed by a bit of historical research.

Non-fascists don't attend fascist rallies. "Fine people" don't attend fascist rallies. Stop making excuses for fascists. That's a completely bizarre comparison. Are you seriously arguing that your average Nazi is a decent bloke, and that there are just a few bad apples?

I don't know what's going on in the world. There are people on an Irish website defending fascists. They'll claim they're not, but hey: I guess we're in a post-fact world.

It was not a fascist march it was meant to be a unite the right march. Groups like the proud boys & patriot prayer were meant to be at it but pulled out when the mayor started messing about with the permit
Not defending fascists/racists or anything else but why are people giving antifa who are actual fascists a pass?

Help!!!! · 16-08-2017 06:49PM

wes wrote: »

Yet, its the Nazi's killing people. Go figure..........

I have yet to see Antifa going around attacking and killing random white people.

On the other hand Nazi/White supremacists, do go around killing non-white (and white people who disagree with them) all the damn time. I gave multiple example of them doing exactly that.

But antifa do go around attacking random white people at these events

VinLieger · 16-08-2017 06:49PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

We've seen the results of communism as well

Being Antifa does not = being pro communism

Thats a lazy deflection used by the alt-right to describe anyone who disagrees with them.

Danzy · 16-08-2017 06:50PM

Ultimately Antifa and the Nazis despise each other for picking the other side, given the mentality of the two is so similar that is going to lead to a lot of bitterness and we see that.

Help!!!! · 16-08-2017 06:51PM

wes wrote: »

Against armed fascists, and not civilians.

Really? Berkeley? Many Trump rallies they attacked his supporters. It took a while for the Trump supporters to fight back

Help!!!! · 16-08-2017 06:58PM

VinLieger wrote: »

Being Antifa does not = being pro communism

Thats a lazy deflection used by the alt-right to describe anyone who disagrees with them.

Really? well they seem to be suckers for the ole communist flags

marcus001 · 16-08-2017 07:00PM

VinLieger wrote: »

Being Antifa does not = being pro communism

Thats a lazy deflection used by the alt-right to describe anyone who disagrees with them.

Most of them are communists and anarchists. The ones I know have extreme disdain for liberals because liberals wag their fingers at the violence they commit.

Brian? · 16-08-2017 07:03PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

It was not a fascist march it was meant to be a unite the right march. Groups like the proud boys & patriot prayer were meant to be at it but pulled out when the mayor started messing about with the permit
Not defending fascists/racists or anything else but why are people giving antifa who are actual fascists a pass?

What is it about Antifa that makes them fascists in your view? Because they use violence for political means?

Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce, that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

Antifa are not authoritarian. Antifa are not nationalists. Antifa are not using violence to topple the democratic system and install a dictator. Antifa do not want to create a government that controls industry and commerce.

Antifa use violence against fascists.

I DO NOT approve of their uses of violence. I do not approve of anyone's use of violence, ever. This false equivalency between Antifa and fascists needs to stop. Criticise their methods, but do not equate them with fascists, it's complete and total nonsense.

Again: a Nazi killed a protester at a white supremacist march. That's what happened. The Nazi who drove the car is to blame. The other Nazis and white supremacists in the march share some blame. The woman who was killed shares zero blame.

Brian? · 16-08-2017 07:04PM

marcus001 wrote: »

Most of them are communists and anarchists. The ones I know have extreme disdain for liberals because liberals wag their fingers at the violence they commit.

Most of them are anarchists.

Help!!!! · 16-08-2017 07:07PM

Brian? wrote: »

What is it about Antifa that makes them fascists in your view? Because they use violence for political means?

Antifa are not authoritarian. Antifa are not nationalists. Antifa are not using violence to topple the democratic system and install a dictator. Antifa do not want to create a government that controls industry and commerce.

Antifa use violence against fascists.

I DO NOT approve of their uses of violence. I do not approve of anyone's use of violence, ever. This false equivalency between Antifa and fascists needs to stop. Criticise their methods, but do not equate them with fascists, it's complete and total nonsense.

Again: a Nazi killed a protester at a white supremacist march. That's what happened. The Nazi who drove the car is to blame. The other Nazis and white supremacists in the march share some blame. The woman who was killed shares zero blame.

Antifa want to shut down free speech, they will attack to stop free speech seems

" forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism "

Brian? · 16-08-2017 07:13PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Antifa want to shut down free speech, they will attack to stop free speech seems

" forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism "

But they don't want to shut down free speech. They protest against fascists.

Free speech goes both ways. You're entirely free to speak and I'm entirely free to tell you you're wrong.

You are wrong. Even if they did fulfill this criteria, they fail the fascist test because they don't want to set up an authoritarian system of government with a dictator at the top. That's what fascists are all about. This is not complicated at all.

Danzy · 16-08-2017 07:15PM

Brian? wrote: »

Most of them are anarchists.

They are just people who ended up on that authoritarian, control freak side as opposed to the like of the fascists they fight who ended up on the other.

Having lived in America, Germany and here in Ireland and been involved in left wing activism in all of them, the amount of Anarchists I have met who hadn't it made before they ever grew up at all, is very small.

Given the similarity between the two, how can you oppose one and not the other.

If either side came to power they would have you and I in a camp, maybe me first but you would end up there as well.

WinnyThePoo · 16-08-2017 07:16PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Antifa want to shut down free speech, they will attack to stop free speech seems

" forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism "

What do you think of the driver. Does he take any responsibility for mowing down those people?

manual_man · 16-08-2017 07:18PM

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

What do you think of the driver. Does he take any responsibility for mowing down those people?

And the award for most disingenuous question of the day goes to

Help!!!! · 16-08-2017 07:19PM

Brian? wrote: »

But they don't want to shut down free speech. They protest against fascists.

Free speech goes both ways. You're entirely free to speak and I'm entirely free to tell you you're wrong.

You are wrong. Even if they did fulfill this criteria, they fail the fascist test because they don't want to set up an authoritarian system of government with a dictator at the top. That's what fascists are all about. This is not complicated at all.

Yes you are well within your rights to say anyone is wrong but antifa do not give they other side a chance to speak plenty of examples online. Is Milo a fascist?? No! Ben Shapiro?? NO!
The attack people wanting to hear the talks & also cause thousands of $ of damage
They are the ones being fascists whether it fulfill your criteria or not

Brian? · 16-08-2017 07:21PM

Danzy wrote: »

They are just people who ended up on that authoritarian, control freak side as opposed to the like of the fascists they fight who ended up on the other.

Having lived in America, Germany and here in Ireland and been involved in left wing activism in all of them, the amount of Anarchists I have met who hadn't it made before they ever grew up at all, is very small.

Given the similarity between the two, how can you oppose one and not the other.

If either side came to power they would have you and I in a camp, maybe me first but you would end up there as well.

How many times do I need to say that I don't support Antifa's methods? I share their opposition to fascists though.

Most of them are anarchists, who are anti authoritarian. Repeating the false equivalency doesn't make it true.

Help!!!! · 16-08-2017 07:22PM

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

What do you think of the driver. Does he take any responsibility for mowing down those people?

It depends on which person he was at the time, seeing as he has schizophrenia;)
But seriously he will get what he deserves

Brian? · 16-08-2017 07:24PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Yes you are well within your rights to say anyone is wrong but antifa do not give they other side a chance to speak plenty of examples online. Is Milo a fascist?? No! Ben Shapiro?? NO!
The attack people wanting to hear the talks & also cause thousands of $ of damage
They are the ones being fascists whether it fulfill your criteria or not

It's not my criteria. I didn't make up the definition for who is or is not a fascist.

You're calling them fascists with no basis in fact. Being violent politically doesn't make you a fascist. It's a complete over simplification to believe it does.

Help!!!! · 16-08-2017 07:24PM

Brian? wrote: »

How many times do I need to say that I don't support Antifa's methods? I share their opposition to fascists though.

Most of them are anarchists, who are anti authoritarian. Repeating the false equivalency doesn't make it true.

I think most share their opposition of fascists but they calling everyone that they disagree with fascists & then attacking them is not the way to go about it

The Legend Of Kira · 16-08-2017 07:29PM

Brian? wrote: »

Help!!!! wrote: »

It was not a fascist march it was meant to be a unite the right march. Groups like the proud boys & patriot prayer were meant to be at it but pulled out when the mayor started messing about with the permit
Not defending fascists/racists or anything else but why are people giving antifa who are actual fascists a pass?

What is it about Antifa that makes them fascists in your view? Because they use violence for political means?

Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce, that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

Antifa are not authoritarian. Antifa are not nationalists. Antifa are not using violence to topple the democratic system and install a dictator. Antifa do not want to create a government that controls industry and commerce.

Antifa use violence against fascists.

I DO NOT approve of their uses of violence. I do not approve of anyone's use of violence, ever. This false equivalency between Antifa and fascists needs to stop. Criticise their methods, but do not equate them with fascists, it's complete and total nonsense.

Again: a Nazi killed a protester at a white supremacist march. That's what happened. The Nazi who drove the car is to blame. The other Nazis and white supremacists in the march share some blame. The woman who was killed shares zero blame.

"" What is it about Antifa that makes them fascists in your view? ""

I know you directed that question at another poster, But I ll sum it up as best as I can why I see them as fascists.

( 1 ) Refusal to accept democratic outcome of a election + violently targeting opposition.

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]In the last year political violence against Trump supporters has being normalised people have physically attacked for supporting Trump/wearing Trump t shirts/ physically attacked for wanting to go hear pro trump speakers at their local college/local uni/ pro Trump speakers have being targeted with violence + riots in the streets to prevent their speaking engagement going ahead, Antifa rioted in the streets when Trump was inaugurated Imagine back when Obama was 1st inaugurated in 2009, imagine if an extreme right wing group rioted in the streets , imagine if an extreme right wing group violently attacked Obama supporters everytime there was a pro Obama rally, the extreme right wing group would be called out for being fascists + rightly so. [/font]

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[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]( 2 ) Wearing of mask while engaging in their actions.[/font]

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]What other extremists wears masks ? I can think of two the KKK + Isis.[/font]

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[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]( 3 ) Recent G20 riots.[/font]

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]If a right wing group rioted in the streets at the recent G20 they d be called out as fascists.[/font]

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]( 4 ) Using Violence/Intimidation To Stop Debate[/font]

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]This has been seen both here + in the Usa a debate or a public meeting is called to discuss an Issue be it Immigration policy or a right wing speaker is invited to give a speech at a college, in the past they have disrupted meetings + rioted in the street to stop stuff from going ahead as seen in Berkeley a few months ago, take for example the abortion debate/repeal etc, abortion is another touchy issue, but lets ask the question when was the last time pro life groups used violence/Intimidation to stop debates on abortion from going ahead ? if you use violence to stop democratic debates from taking place you re a fascist in my eyes .[/font]

manual_man · 16-08-2017 07:29PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

I think most share their opposition of fascists but they calling everyone that they disagree with fascists & then attacking them is not the way to go about it

Precisely. Because it's fascist in nature

Danzy · 16-08-2017 07:35PM

Brian? wrote: »

How many times do I need to say that I don't support Antifa's methods? I share their opposition to fascists though.

Most of them are anarchists, who are anti authoritarian. Repeating the false equivalency doesn't make it true.

I never said you support them, I also share their opposition to fascists, many of them are Anarchists, many are Anarcho-Communists, some Socialists. some from different strains of Communism and on and on.

There is a belief in thought control, social control and there certainly is authoritarianism there, a love of display and violence as a pure act. FFS

Christ said "love one another as I loved you" and look at how that turned out among his most ardent followers.

Those pricks want to claim the definition of being Anti Fascist for their own use and advancement and benefit.

If you see the Klan types fighting Antifa and you are anywhere on the left, run into that fight and light up both sides. Privileged pricks on either side getting their rocks off. The differences are academic.

For Reals · 16-08-2017 07:36PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Who defending white supremacists?? What I'm saying is that both sides are equally as bad as each other. The rise of the alt right/kkk etc is down to the likes of antifa attacking innocent people going to rallies or conferences
We've seen the results of communism as well

You seem to be. By (yourself and Trump) putting white supremacists on a par with people who protested against hate. Like both sides are decent moral folk simply with different views.

Trying to blame 'antifa' for the rise in the ALT-Right racists is frankly obscene.
These white supremacists are fighting against equality and using fear and hate to do so. How exactly are both sides 'as bad as each other'? If one side win out we may see concentration camps and butchering. If the other win out we'll see equality.
As for the 'antifa', they are a group you have issue with and that's fine but the attempt to whittle this down to the KK vs. Antifa is pathetic.

oscarBravo · 16-08-2017 07:37PM

ezra_ wrote: »

Interesting point:
Does one man, dressed as Hitler, doing the nazi / hitler thing and attending a rally make it a Nazi rally?

Where is the tipping point?

I guess we'll never really know now, since the facts will have been twisted to suit either right or left's side, but just how many people were at the rally, flying swastikas and chanting Juden raus?

Help!!!! wrote: »

It was not a fascist march it was meant to be a unite the right march.

OK, enough with the mealy-mouthed crap. It's been posted before, but it's worth showing again:

This was a fascist rally. If you try to claim it wasn't, you're just making yourself look stupid.

Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

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