Forcing old people to be landlords

brightspark · 14-08-2017 09:50PM

gctest50 wrote: »

Renting out while they are in a nursing home would be a disaster

If someone has an asset they will never use again worth say ..... €280,0000

and they are in a nursing home, what's wrong with selling it off to cover the costs ?

( exclude farms for the minute to keep it simple )

Currently the 7.5% annual charge against the house is capped at three years. If sold the proceeds would then just be considered savings and liable in subsequent years.

LirW · 14-08-2017 09:57PM

Dublin in fact does have vacant land, in the western part as well as North side.
Elderly in need of care are vulnerable people with no lobby behind them, it's easy to claw their possessions.
While I do support downsizing, anything that forces people to give up rights to their homes leaves a very bitter taste.

That aside I get the idea behind it but it really doesn't seem very well thought through. What for example happens when only one partner is in need of care or another family member lives in the house but can't provide care? Would this be a case of exemption?
I always find it so difficult where to draw the line.

RayM · 14-08-2017 10:07PM

I think there's a strong argument to be made for encouraging old people, or their families, to rent out their vacant houses. Definitely better to use a carrot, rather than a stick. The only time you should use a stick against old people is when they're trying to use a self-service checkout.

Hupourradat · 14-08-2017 10:12PM

"7,941 were homeless nationwide in the week of June 19-25th 2017" - Focus Ireland Website.

We have 49 Army Barracks in the Republic, and the ability to tootle off to the Mediterranean to rescue migrants but we don't seem to have military tents, cooking facilities, bathing facilities and a safe secure environment for people out on the streets. These are the Defence Forces, they are supposedly trained for emergencies like this. God forbid we have a natural disaster if they can't temporarily aid the homeless while accommodation is built.

So the solution is a Snooper property database? Is this a naively stupid idea or an excuse for something more sinister?

14-08-2017 10:13PM

Comes down to the nub of it

We want housing to be a universal right

We want houses to be market goods

We want houses to be retirement funds

By god we'll vote out anyone who won't deliver all three

We are a remarkable stupid country regarding property

14-08-2017 10:14PM

I thought we had agreed to not use the word homeless to describe people who aren't actually homeless

We're a poor discussion site it's true but please god we haven't sunk to the media's level yet

Jobs OXO · 14-08-2017 10:35PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Pension requirements? Aren't these nursing homes like 1-2 grand a week?

Yes....and?

maudgonner · 14-08-2017 10:45PM

Hupourradat wrote: »

"7,941 were homeless nationwide in the week of June 19-25th 2017" - Focus Ireland Website.

We have 49 Army Barracks in the Republic, and the ability to tootle off to the Mediterranean to rescue migrants but we don't seem to have military tents, cooking facilities, bathing facilities and a safe secure environment for people out on the streets. These are the Defence Forces, they are supposedly trained for emergencies like this. God forbid we have a natural disaster if they can't temporarily aid the homeless while accommodation is built.

So the solution is a Snooper property database? Is this a naively stupid idea or an excuse for something more sinister?

I'm not sure you really understand the nature of the homeless problem in Ireland tbh. The vast majority of homeless people are not sleeping rough. Those who do sleep rough usually have issues other than a lack of availablity of emergency accommodation. Providing tents for people is not what's needed.

Ursus Horribilis · 14-08-2017 10:59PM

If a relative goes into a nursing home, would it not be preferable to rent their house out to defray the costs rather than the alternative? If the family has to go down the Fair Deal route, the house will have to be sold eventually. Minus their huge chunk.

brightspark · 14-08-2017 11:04PM

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

If a relative goes into a nursing home, would it not be preferable to rent their house out to defray the costs rather than the alternative? If the family has to go down the Fair Deal route, the house will have to be sold eventually. Minus their huge chunk.

Under Fair Deal, 80% of all income goes to pay the nursing home. That includes rental income.

gctest50 · 14-08-2017 11:09PM

Be paying all of it some day :

"Today 1.1 million people aged 60 and over live on the island of Ireland. By 2041, there will be 2.44 million aged 60 and over making up nearly one third of the island’s total population."

http://www.publichealth.ie/site-page/ageing-research-and-development

Be some craic funding that

jcon1913 · 14-08-2017 11:14PM

Give people more tax breaks to rent their houses.

Right now there are disincentives to rent your house, here are a few the govt coukd change

Private Residential Tenancies Board registration,

only 75% of interest paid to buy a buy to let is allowable against the rental income,

if you rent you home out for say 10 years of the total period you own it say 30 years then you have to pay Capital Gains Tax on the gain in proportion to the period you were put of the house ie 10 30ths of ghe gain is taxed

And on and on

So if the govt simply removed some of these disincentives then more houses would be available to rent

Amirani · 14-08-2017 11:16PM

Hupourradat wrote: »

"7,941 were homeless nationwide in the week of June 19-25th 2017" - Focus Ireland Website.

We have 49 Army Barracks in the Republic, and the ability to tootle off to the Mediterranean to rescue migrants but we don't seem to have military tents, cooking facilities, bathing facilities and a safe secure environment for people out on the streets. These are the Defence Forces, they are supposedly trained for emergencies like this. God forbid we have a natural disaster if they can't temporarily aid the homeless while accommodation is built.

So the solution is a Snooper property database? Is this a naively stupid idea or an excuse for something more sinister?

Homeless refers to people without a fixed home. It includes people living in hotels and other temporary accommodation paid for by local authorities, in fact these make up the bulk of the "homeless" population (rather than those sleeping rough). Moving them to military barracks doesn't change their situation.

LirW · 14-08-2017 11:16PM

Thinking about it in a very practical way: A lot of homes owned by elderly are in need of serious re-decoration and repair and some might not be in shape to be rented out. Who's actually taking on these costs if the family doesn't jump in? Or would that mean a whole lot of substandard gaffs would land on the market?
I really don't wanna be smart here, genuine question.

brightspark · 14-08-2017 11:22PM

LirW wrote: »

Thinking about it in a very practical way: A lot of homes owned by elderly are in need of serious re-decoration and repair and some might not be in shape to be rented out. Who's actually taking on these costs if the family doesn't jump in? Or would that mean a whole lot of substandard gaffs would land on the market?
I really don't wanna be smart here, genuine question.

It's a fair comment, many of the "homeless" wouldn't live in many of the houses currently owned by pensioners.
At the very least they would need repainting, some don't have central heating or proper insulation.

Barry Badrinath · 14-08-2017 11:24PM

Hupourradat wrote: »

"7,941 were homeless nationwide in the week of June 19-25th 2017" - Focus Ireland Website.

We have 49 Army Barracks in the Republic, and the ability to tootle off to the Mediterranean to rescue migrants but we don't seem to have military tents, cooking facilities, bathing facilities and a safe secure environment for people out on the streets. These are the Defence Forces, they are supposedly trained for emergencies like this. God forbid we have a natural disaster if they can't temporarily aid the homeless while accommodation is built.

So the solution is a Snooper property database? Is this a naively stupid idea or an excuse for something more sinister?

We dont have 49 Barracks' in the Republic and using Barracks to house homeless people is not a solution.

Even temporarily, from a Defence Forces perspective, its a daft idea for a myriad of reasons, security being the largest.

Your idea is not very well thought out.

Maybe use the 'Ghost Estates' littered around the country.

nice_guy80 · 14-08-2017 11:24PM

I can only imagine the stress this is causing for elderly people who had to move into nursing homes for their care
and their families too

all their possessions are still in the house. all their memories.
they surrender all hope of ever returning home if there is someone else living in their house, just because the government are not able to build houses

the government will then tax the rental income (another worry for these elderly people)

and then the HSE will get their hands on that money because of the 'Fair Deal' scheme

jca · 14-08-2017 11:27PM

LirW wrote: »

Thinking about it in a very practical way: A lot of homes owned by elderly are in need of serious re-decoration and repair and some might not be in shape to be rented out. Who's actually taking on these costs if the family doesn't jump in? Or would that mean a whole lot of substandard gaffs would land on the market?
I really don't wanna be smart here, genuine question.

You're on the ball there. A relative of mine is in a nursing home on the fair deal and the (1970's) house while being structurally sound is in desperate need of serious bobs to bring it up to any acceptable standard for renting.
As others have said earlier, who is going to administer the renting of these properties? In my case there's no power of attorney in place, the relative in my case can't use a phone, manage money etc. I can see it being a nightmare, it's difficult enough managing the relatives needs as is without this being foisted upon families.

LirW · 14-08-2017 11:29PM

In reality an elderly person in care can't take care of this. You'd have to let the family manage and if they can't because they aren't on good terms or aren't interested, a management company will do this and we all know the anecdotes of how reliable they are.

If there aren't clear rules there is a good possibility that there are bills piled up against the house or assets of the elderly person. Who pays the management company, refurbishment, the broken boiler in the house that the tenant needs fixed?

jca · 14-08-2017 11:35PM

LirW wrote: »

In reality an elderly person in care can't take care of this. You'd have to let the family manage and if they can't because they aren't on good terms or aren't interested, a management company will do this and we all know the anecdotes of how reliable they are.

Not going to happen in the case of my relative. I'd burn the fcuker to the ground sooner than let anyone take it from them. It wouldn't even be an insurance scam because it can't be insured,(unoccupied house ain't covered:mad:)

gctest50 · 14-08-2017 11:39PM

jca wrote: »

..............

because it can't be insured,(unoccupied house ain't covered:mad:)

That's another problem - what if someone has an accident on the grounds of the house ?

We all know how claim-happy some visitors are

kona · 14-08-2017 11:45PM

What a ****ing bollox the "government " have made of this country in the last 10 years. What fianna fail started, fine gael have really ****ed us over by selling off everything and anything without any sort of logical plan or investment into the infrastructure of the country.

Their manipulation of the housing and property market is a ****ing disgrace.

brightspark · 14-08-2017 11:45PM

jca wrote: »

You're on the ball there. A relative of mine is in a nursing home on the fair deal and the (1970's) house while being structurally sound is in desperate need of serious bobs to bring it up to any acceptable standard for renting.
As others have said earlier, who is going to administer the renting of these properties? In my case there's no power of attorney in place, the relative in my case can't use a phone, manage money etc. I can see it being a nightmare, it's difficult enough managing the relatives needs as is without this being foisted upon families.

The families are also suffering, worried about their loved one in the nursing home, they are effectively grieving, and also feeling guilty for not being able to mind their loved one. Some I know are unable to enter the house yet are unable to emotionally let the house go either.

Lack of power of attorney is a big issue too, we had to take up the costs of ESB etc, while cancelling whatever contracts we could (sometimes by subterfuge, not letting the company involved know who exactly was cancelling the service etc)

The last thing these families need are more problems.

brightspark · 15-08-2017 12:00AM

LirW wrote: »

In reality an elderly person in care can't take care of this. You'd have to let the family manage and if they can't because they aren't on good terms or aren't interested, a management company will do this and we all know the anecdotes of how reliable they are.

If there aren't clear rules there is a good possibility that there are bills piled up against the house or assets of the elderly person. Who pays the management company, refurbishment, the broken boiler in the house that the tenant needs fixed?

I think that is a very inconsiderate comment, families can feel guilty enough about having to put their loved ones in a nursing home without people like you thinking they "aren't on good terms or aren't interested".

I hope you and yours never experience it.

gctest50 · 15-08-2017 12:02AM

kona wrote: »

What a ****ing bollox the "government " have made of this country in the last 10 years. What fianna fail started, fine gael have really ****ed us over by selling off everything and anything without any sort of logical plan or investment into the infrastructure of the country.

Their manipulation of the housing and property market is a ****ing disgrace.

It's all beautiful if you are an American fund or something

- they can write off any losses say this year against any profits for the next few years ( tax wise)

Donald Trump didn't pay any tax for 18 years over this

( unless it's all changed lately - dunno )

Icing on the cake for them ? come over and set up nursing homes

.

Ursus Horribilis · 15-08-2017 12:03AM

nice_guy80 wrote: »

.
they surrender all hope of ever returning home if there is someone else living in their house, just because the government are not able to build houses

I wonder what percentage of people ever return home from a nursing home? From my anecdotal experience, the vast majority only leave in a wooden box. The exceptions seem to be mostly people recovering from an operation or whose carer is temporarily ill.

It would be nice if the government facilitated options other than Fair Deal and the selling of the family home. Perhaps incentives/tax breaks to people so that the rental income can cover those onerous bills.

Mrs OBumble · 15-08-2017 12:05AM

brightspark wrote: »

Currently the 7.5% annual charge against the house is capped at three years. If sold the proceeds would then just be considered savings and liable in subsequent years.

And that is the nub of this whole issue: middle aged adult children who want to inherit some of mammy's assets, and don't want to see them used for her care. (I say mammy, because in the majority of cases, he dies first so it is mammy we're taking about - but the same principle applies if it's the other way around.

Under the current rules, if those assets are in the form of a family home, then only a small proportion of them needs to be used before the state starts picking up the cost. But if they are in the form of cash, then most of them need to be used up first. So the family members who have power-of-attorney and are managing their parents affairs are making decisions to maximise their inheritance, rather than maximise the good of the whole community, ie leaving the house vacant and unsold.

Someone asked what about when the elderly person comes out of the nursing home. Not an issue: if you're infirm enough to get Fair Deal care, then there are only two ways you leave the nursing home - in a coffin, or in an ambulance going to a more advanced hospital.

What needs to change are the Fair Deal rules - the clawback should be against the whole house value (except for some minimum threshold, enough to cover the cost of the funeral and out of pocket expenses ... probably around 20k would be heaps).

And the people who really really want to protect their inheritance simply need to move back home with mammy and care for her themselves, instead of consigning her to a nursing home.

brightspark · 15-08-2017 12:18AM

Some sting you have there Bumble.

I could argue against all your remarks, but it's late and can't be bothered.

Your last remark is beneath contempt.

JupiterKid · 15-08-2017 12:19AM

This will only be a drop in the ocean in terms of solving the housing crisis. Yes, it has its merits but needs to be very carefully thought through to limit abuses.

At the end of the day the problem is too much demand chasing far too little supply. Especially in the private rented and social housing sectors. Ireland needs a social house building programme on a scale not seen in over 30 years and private housing needs major ramping up as well. Demand control measures might include stricter immigration policy but that seems to be a political no no at the moment.

Also, land use planning needs reform - housing needs to be fast tracked and building height restrictions looked at in Dublin. But good quality high density housing doesn't necessarily need to be high rise.

The housing system is highly complex and inter-related and housing policy thus needs to be carefully thought out and implemented in a targeted manner.

Otherwise the problems will only worsen. The fundamental problem is that housing is a basic social need but is also viewed as a profitable commodity. These two ideologies are incompatible.

LirW · 15-08-2017 12:37AM

brightspark wrote: »

I think that is a very inconsiderate comment, families can feel guilty enough about having to put their loved ones in a nursing home without people like you thinking they "aren't on good terms or aren't interested".

I hope you and yours never experience it.

No worries, been there, it wasn't meant like that, I just know that a family can fall out. Some family member in a nursing home has nothing to do with family not being interested. Some genuinely can't take the work on because they have jobs, family etc.
I think you got that wrong, I was more talking about the genuine cases like in my family where members can't come to terms and agree of anything.

Forcing old people to be landlords

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