14 year-old using whey protein

byronbay2 · 31-07-2017 05:22PM #1

My son is (just) 14 and plays a lot of sport. He is very fit and healthy but does not have a large appetite. He eats well and is quite health-conscious but would not eat a large meal. He is average height but is quite slim (skinny?) and is all muscle, very little body fat. Last week he said he wanted to start taking whey protein to become bigger and build some muscle.

Is this wise for a boy his age? He has not gone through puberty yet and is probably due a growth spurt in the next year anyway. Could there be any dangers or side-effects to starting using this product? If it is OK, what product would be best for somebody in his situation. Any help or advice appreciated.

Pterosaur · 31-07-2017 05:26PM

byronbay2 wrote: »

My son is (just) 14 and plays a lot of sport. He is very fit and healthy but does not have a large appetite. He eats well and is quite health-conscious but would not eat a large meal. He is average height but is quite slim (skinny?) and is all muscle, very little body fat. Last week he said he wanted to start taking whey protein to become bigger and build some muscle.

Is this wise for a boy his age? He has not gone through puberty yet and is probably due a growth spurt in the next year anyway. Could there be any dangers or side-effects to starting using this product? If it is OK, what product would be best for somebody in his situation. Any help or advice appreciated.

Mooju? Chocolate milk, has extra protein. You can make great milkshakes and add protein powder to it. No side effects I'd imagine. 14 though, seems young.

Subcomandante Marcos · 31-07-2017 05:32PM

It's perfectly fine health wise but to be honest he shouldn't need it. He just needs to up his calorie intake and add some weight training.

harr · 31-07-2017 05:32PM

While someone else probably will give you the exact reason he should or shouldn't I personally don't believe any lad should need extra protein at 14 and by just taking whey it wouldn't magically give him the muscles he wants.
Let his body develop naturally for now and try get a balanced diet into him getting protein from food products..I used to eat like a horse at that age and remained slim till I got to 17 or 18 and my body started to fill out a bit, I remained lean but my muscle mass increased and I got stronger so could do proper gym work never needed to take extra protein back then...

cormie · 31-07-2017 06:57PM

This is well worth a watch and would conflict with the statement that using whey protein is perfectly fine health wise:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc4t6BUHZH8

Subcomandante Marcos · 31-07-2017 07:01PM

I'm sure Mic the vegan Evangelist is an unbiased and we'll respected source.

cormie · 31-07-2017 07:10PM

My post 18:57, your post, 19:01, video length 11:13.

Maybe check his list of references before jumping to a conclusion about bias.

Mellor · 01-08-2017 07:07AM

cormie wrote: »

My post 18:57, your post, 19:01, video length 11:13.

Maybe check his list of references before jumping to a conclusion about bias.

Are you actually suggesting that he is an impartial source? Come on, you don't have to watch an 11 minute video to be aware that a Vegan YouTube channel might have an agenda.

FWIW, I have watched the video.
He highlighted, using statistical data and real lift muscular vegans (most of whom are likely on steroids btw) that a vegan diet can be adequate for muscle growth and development. You realise that being adequate doesn't mean that alternatives are dangerous. Also, the benchmark for adequacy was RDI minimum amounts, which is not necessarily optimal.
The stuff at the blood markers in a vegan diet vrs typical American diet is irrelevant. A typical American diet is awful. Using that as a comparison is misleading.

There's nothing in that video that suggests whey is dangerous. Only that veganism is safe and adequate as long as you meet requirements, which is a fairly accepted view tbh.

MysticMonk · 01-08-2017 07:55AM

Most 14 year olds are skinny because they dont eat enough and certainly dont get enough protein. Kids that age tend to be very active and eat small meals and a lot of sweets(I may be wrong on that in this case though). Also they're usually starting to take a stretch upwards which further places high demands on the body for nutrients,especially calcium.
It will do no harm at all for him to supplement with sensible amounts of whey but he won't start to grow muscle properly til he hits puberty and testosterone production begins.

Wanderer78 · 01-08-2017 08:08AM

I'm very wary of all this protein stuff, I do think the 'science' behind it is questionable, I'm not convinced it's all that health for us, as it seems more a marketing ploy than anything. I don't think I'd be recommending it to a teenager, just make sure he's eating healthily and I'm sure he'll be fine.

Alf Veedersane · 01-08-2017 08:44AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I'm very wary of all this protein stuff, I do think the 'science' behind it is questionable, I'm not convinced it's all that health for us, as it seems more a marketing ploy than anything. I don't think I'd be recommending it to a teenager, just make sure he's eating healthily and I'm sure he'll be fine.

What part of the 'science' behind the use of a protein that's in milk is questionable?

If you've ever had yoghurt, the water on top is whey.

Aside from that, a 14-year-old doesn't need whey. It's a supplement. Priority for anyone is to eat first. Supplement if necessary but it won't be necessary for a 14-year-old in any case.

Macy0161 · 01-08-2017 09:12AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I'm very wary of all this protein stuff, I do think the 'science' behind it is questionable, I'm not convinced it's all that health for us, as it seems more a marketing ploy than anything.

Whey is in milk, and is a side product of cheese production. If it was good enough for Little Miss Muffet, it's good enough for me...

There's definitely questionable marketing around protein products (Protein Milk for example), but basic whey powder must be the least additional ingredients and lowest margin product out there.

JJJJNR · 01-08-2017 09:17AM

It would be better in my opinion to get him to eat more protein rich foods, like an extra red meat meal a week the day before a training session, or raw broccoli daily. Organic broccoli being my personal preference. I'm not a vegan or anything but at least broccoli is packed with other well known nutrients that are good for him, even eating porridge in the morning can add a small amount of protein to his diet.

At 14 he is very likely anxious about his appearance, and body shape. Any decisions made now to bulk up could have a bad effect in later life.

Big Nasty · 01-08-2017 09:17AM

If he starts some weight training (supervised so he doesn't injure himself) he'll be starving and will eat more.

Wanderer78 · 01-08-2017 09:23AM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

What part of the 'science' behind the use of a protein that's in milk is questionable?

If you've ever had yoghurt, the water on top is whey.

Aside from that, a 14-year-old doesn't need whey. It's a supplement. Priority for anyone is to eat first. Supplement if necessary but it won't be necessary for a 14-year-old in any case.

Macy0161 wrote: »

Whey is in milk, and is a side product of cheese production. If it was good enough for Little Miss Muffet, it's good enough for me...

There's definitely questionable marketing around protein products (Protein Milk for example), but basic whey powder must be the least additional ingredients and lowest margin product out there.

i understand protein is naturally available to us and essential, but i do believe the idea of a lot of the advertised protein products is just a marketing ploy. due to marketing, it is believed males should be big and bulky, just as women are believed should be thin, this is bull****! eat healthily, exercise regularly, and you will be fine. we are filling kids with bull**** ideas, giving them complexes with their growing bodies and minds, and creating products to fix those complexes. its all bull****!

Macy0161 · 01-08-2017 09:27AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i understand protein is naturally available to us and essential, but i do believe the idea of a lot of the advertised protein products is just a marketing ploy. due to marketing, it is believed males should be big and bulky, just as women are believed should be thin, this is bull****! eat healthily, exercise regularly, and you will be fine. we are filling kids with bull**** ideas, giving them complexes with their growing bodies and minds, and creating products to fix those complexes. its all bull****!

That's the marketing, not the science which is what you called out!

Mellor · 01-08-2017 09:28AM

byronbay2 wrote: »

Is this wise for a boy his age? He has not gone through puberty yet and is probably due a growth spurt in the next year anyway. Could there be any dangers or side-effects to starting using this product?

Whey isn't some sinister growth boosting chemical. It's just a foodstuff, derived from milk. "Milk helps you grow big and strong" <<< whey protein. He's probably been having whey from milk/dairy his whole life, like most kids.

Protein is required for growth and survival. A growth spurth needs protein. Everyone from newborn babies to old aged invalids need protein. Some sort of protein, be it dairy, meat, plant protein, or a protein supplement. He should be able to get enough protein from his diet. But there's no issue with using a protein supplement (doesn't necessarily have to be whey) for convience. But bare in mind, if he's a naturally skinny kid he'll need to up his intake overall in order to put on some

Wanderer78 · 01-08-2017 09:30AM

Macy0161 wrote: »

That's the marketing, not the science which is what you called out!

believe it or not, there is such a thing as 'bad science', some of this 'science' is actually just marketing, i.e. questionable peer reviewed work

Mooooo · 01-08-2017 09:34AM

Give him a pint of milk with meals and plenty lean meats and a bit of fish etc. Most of us were the same when training and young. Given his training and healthy diet he may well be stringer than most his age despite his size

Mellor · 01-08-2017 09:40AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Macy0161 wrote: »

That's the marketing, not the science which is what you called out!

believe it or not, there is such a thing as and 'bad science', some of this 'science' is actually just marketing, i.e. questionable peer reviewed work

Which "science" are you referring to? It's just food. If you have an issue with the body image stuff, that's up to you. But supplement companies didn't invent whey.

I think you are actually falling victim to anti-marketing. You see the bulky buff pictures on labels (marketing to male goals) and assume that's there must be something dangerous.
If you knew it was safe for kids, or even infants, would that allievate your concerns?

Tigger · 01-08-2017 09:48AM

Mooooo wrote: »

Give him a pint of milk with meals and plenty lean meats and a bit of fish etc. Most of us were the same when training and young. Given his training and healthy diet he may well be stringer than most his age despite his size

Milk and lean meat?
What's wrong with fatty meat

Wanderer78 · 01-08-2017 09:51AM

Mellor wrote: »

Which "science" are you referring to? It's just food. If you have an issue with the body image stuff, that's up to you. But supplement companies didn't invent whey.

I think you are actually falling victim to anti-marketing. You see the bulky buff pictures on labels (marketing to male goals) and assume that's there must be something dangerous.
If you knew it was safe for kids, or even infants, would that allievate your concerns?

there is an area called 'food science'! the term 'body image' is a marketing term. it has been created to give us complexes over our physical image, therefore 'products' can be created in order to 'fix' the issues of our body image, i.e. its a scam! noam chomsky has this one nailed, marketing causes uninformed, irrational thinking and decision making, we are all susceptible to it.

eat healthily, regularly exercise and you ll be fine, i.e. ignore the marketing stuff as best you can

Tigger · 01-08-2017 09:52AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

there is an area called 'food science'! the term 'body image' is a marketing term. it has been created to give us complexes over our physical image, therefore 'products' can be created in order to 'fix' the issues of our body image, i.e. its a scam! noam chomsky has this one nailed, marketing causes uninformed, irrational thinking and decision making, we are all susceptible to it.

eat healthily, regularly exercise and you ll be fine, i.e. ignore the marketing stuff as best you can

Whey is food and can be part of a healthy diet.

Wanderer78 · 01-08-2017 09:54AM

Tigger wrote: »

Whey is food and can be part of a health diet.

oh here, jesus!

http://www.badscience.net/

im out, op please dont pump ****e into your child, best of luck

Mooooo · 01-08-2017 09:56AM

Tigger wrote: »

Milk and lean meat?
What's wrong with fatty meat

Nothing in particular I guess but I don't know too many kids that eat the fatty part of meats, perhaps if it's minced up? I guess with a young lad you need to find out what he wants to eat as well

Dixie Chick · 01-08-2017 10:08AM

Hi OP, you say that he doesn't have a huge appetite so he will find it hard to gain if not eating enough esp with his level of activity. My partner was underweight and he didnt really want to be taking protein as there is a family history of kidney problems and also, the cost of a good one would add up. He now has a pint of full fat milk with each meal and his weight has steadily gone up.

Mellor · 01-08-2017 10:09AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

there is an area called 'food science'! the term 'body image' is a marketing term. it has been created to give us complexes over our physical image, therefore 'products' can be created in order to 'fix' the issues of our body image,

Home in, you are the in that brought up body image. Who exactly has the complex?
To me it's just food when I'm in a rush.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

[
oh here, jesus!

http://www.badscience.net/

im out, op please dont pump ****e into your child, best of luck

As above, I'm not sure you understand what whey actually is.
Or should we all breastfed for life.

Tigger · 01-08-2017 10:34AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh here, jesus!

http://www.badscience.net/

im out, op please dont pump ****e into your child, best of luck

That's an anti vaxer sight and has nothing to do with milk extract

omb0wyn5ehpij9 · 01-08-2017 10:49AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh here, jesus!

http://www.badscience.net/

im out, op please dont pump ****e into your child, best of luck

Pump ****e into her son? By that definition, if the OPs son has milk, she is pumping ****e into him :rolleyes:

cormie · 01-08-2017 11:38PM

Mellor wrote: »

Are you actually suggesting that he is an impartial source? Come on, you don't have to watch an 11 minute video to be aware that a Vegan YouTube channel might have an agenda.

FWIW, I have watched the video.
He highlighted, using statistical data and real lift muscular vegans (most of whom are likely on steroids btw) that a vegan diet can be adequate for muscle growth and development. You realise that being adequate doesn't mean that alternatives are dangerous. Also, the benchmark for adequacy was RDI minimum amounts, which is not necessarily optimal.
The stuff at the blood markers in a vegan diet vrs typical American diet is irrelevant. A typical American diet is awful. Using that as a comparison is misleading.

There's nothing in that video that suggests whey is dangerous. Only that veganism is safe and adequate as long as you meet requirements, which is a fairly accepted view tbh.

The agenda of a vegan is to cause the least amount of harm to all living creatures so don't be put off just because you see the word vegan

What was stated is that a vegan diet meeting the calorific intake, meets or exceeds suggested protein figures. Once that's understood, then all else is equal, there's vegan protein supplements and there's non vegan protein supplements, there's vegan steroid users and there's non vegan steroid users. There's no way to determine whether someone is vegan or not simply by the size of their muscles.

The blood marker thing didn't mention the standard American diet at all, it was referring to the intake of animal protein as a whole.

Here's another video by the same guy relaying studies about the negative health impact of dairy. It's short and to the point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXWaCfWi1_U

An exert from one of the studies linked to here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3249408/pdf/kwr289.pdf

The authors investigated whether early-life residency in certain areas of Iceland marked by distinct differences in
milk intake was associated with risk of prostate cancer in a population-based cohort of 8,894 men born between
1907 and 1935. Through linkage to cancer and mortality registers, the men were followed for prostate cancer
diagnosis and mortality from study entry (in waves from 1967 to 1987) through 2009. In 2002–2006, a subgroup of
2,268 participants reported their milk intake in early, mid-, and current life. During a mean follow-up period of 24.3 years,
1,123 men were diagnosed with prostate cancer, including 371 with advanced disease (stage 3 or higher or prostate
cancer death). Compared with early-life residency in the capital area, rural residency in the first 20 years of life was
marginally associated with increased risk of advanced prostate cancer (hazard ratio ¼ 1.29, 95% confidence interval
(CI): 0.97, 1.73), particularly among men born before 1920 (hazard ratio ¼ 1.64, 95% CI: 1.06, 2.56). Daily milk
consumption in adolescence (vs. less than daily), but not in midlife or currently, was associated with a 3.2-fold risk
of advanced prostate cancer (95% CI: 1.25, 8.28). These data suggest that frequent milk intake in adolescence
increases risk of advanced prostate cancer.

It's enough reason already without the guy even touching on on the whole environment and compassion side of things.

Mellor · 02-08-2017 02:06PM

cormie wrote: »

The agenda of a vegan is to cause the least amount of harm to all living creatures so don't be put off just because you see the word vegan

I'm an omnivore, my own personal choice. But I've no problem with veganism, at all. But it's hardly a stretch to thing that a person running a youtube channel to promote veganism, would bend the truth in order to encourage others to do less harm.

What was stated is that a vegan diet meeting the calorific intake, meets or exceeds suggested protein figures. Once that's understood, then all else is equal,

Bit of a logical leap there.
Every diet that meets the minimum guidelines isn't automatically equal to all others. There's a difference between adequate and optimal.
And even if a vegan diet can be optimal, that doesn't mean that an onmivore diet is interior or dangerous. As you implied.

As I said, I've no problem with vegans or veganism. But bringing it up unsolicited on a thread is a little preachy, and exactly the stereotype that people associated with vegans.

there's vegan protein supplements and there's non vegan protein supplements, there's vegan steroid users and there's non vegan steroid users. There's no way to determine whether someone is vegan or not simply by the size of their muscles.

Of course, I never said you could tell the size of their muscles.
I'm saying that using examples of steroid users to highlight that vegans an build muscle is a bit disingenuous. Do you get why?

The blood marker thing didn't mention the standard American diet at all, it was referring to the intake of animal protein as a whole.

In order to state that a vegan diet has better/higher levels of something, you need baseline diet to compare that to. Using a typical diet as the baseline is nonsense.
A balanced vegan diet is better than a typical diet simply because a typical diet is awful.

Here's another video by the same guy relaying studies about the negative health impact of dairy. It's short and to the point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXWaCfWi1_U

An exert from one of the studies linked to here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3249408/pdf/kwr289.pdf

There are 1000s of studies every year. It's not difficult to cherry pick the ones that fit an agenda.

Here's one, from the same source site that Mic.The Vegan used.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780128039687000174

Osteoporosis, or low bone mass, currently affects 48 million adults in the United States. Vegans may be at increased risk for developing low bone mass due to lack of adequate consumption of specific bone-benefiting nutrients found largely in animal products, such as calcium, vitamin D, protein, vitamin B12, zinc, and n-3 fatty acids.

Here's another;
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160329184939.htm

Evidence of vegetarian diet permanently shaping human genome to change individual risk of cancer, heart disease
Worldwide map shows frequency of an adaptive allele to a vegetarian diet. By using reference data from the 1000 Genomes Project, a Cornell research team provided evolutionary evidence that the vegetarian diet, over many generations, may have driven the higher frequency of a mutation in the Indian population. The mutation, called rs66698963 and found in the FADS2 gene, is an insertion or deletion of a sequence of DNA that regulates the expression of two genes, FADS1 and FADS2. These genes are key to making long chain polyunsaturated fats. Among these, arachidonic acid is a key target of the pharmaceutical industry because it is a central culprit for those at risk for heart disease, colon cancer, and many other inflammation-related conditions. Treating individuals according to whether they carry 0, 1, or 2 copies of the insertion, and their influence on fatty acid metabolites, can be an important consideration for precision medicine and nutrition.

14 year-old using whey protein

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