14 year-old using whey protein

byronbay2

My son is (just) 14 and plays a lot of sport. He is very fit and healthy but does not have a large appetite. He eats well and is quite health-conscious but would not eat a large meal. He is average height but is quite slim (skinny?) and is all muscle, very little body fat. Last week he said he wanted to start taking whey protein to become bigger and build some muscle.

Is this wise for a boy his age? He has not gone through puberty yet and is probably due a growth spurt in the next year anyway. Could there be any dangers or side-effects to starting using this product? If it is OK, what product would be best for somebody in his situation. Any help or advice appreciated.

Pterosaur

byronbay2 wrote: »

My son is (just) 14 and plays a lot of sport. He is very fit and healthy but does not have a large appetite. He eats well and is quite health-conscious but would not eat a large meal. He is average height but is quite slim (skinny?) and is all muscle, very little body fat. Last week he said he wanted to start taking whey protein to become bigger and build some muscle.

Is this wise for a boy his age? He has not gone through puberty yet and is probably due a growth spurt in the next year anyway. Could there be any dangers or side-effects to starting using this product? If it is OK, what product would be best for somebody in his situation. Any help or advice appreciated.

Mooju? Chocolate milk, has extra protein. You can make great milkshakes and add protein powder to it. No side effects I'd imagine. 14 though, seems young.

Subcomandante Marcos

It's perfectly fine health wise but to be honest he shouldn't need it. He just needs to up his calorie intake and add some weight training.

harr

While someone else probably will give you the exact reason he should or shouldn't I personally don't believe any lad should need extra protein at 14 and by just taking whey it wouldn't magically give him the muscles he wants.
Let his body develop naturally for now and try get a balanced diet into him getting protein from food products..I used to eat like a horse at that age and remained slim till I got to 17 or 18 and my body started to fill out a bit, I remained lean but my muscle mass increased and I got stronger so could do proper gym work never needed to take extra protein back then...

cormie

This is well worth a watch and would conflict with the statement that using whey protein is perfectly fine health wise:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc4t6BUHZH8

Subcomandante Marcos

I'm sure Mic the vegan Evangelist is an unbiased and we'll respected source.

cormie

My post 18:57, your post, 19:01, video length 11:13.

Maybe check his list of references before jumping to a conclusion about bias.

Mellor

cormie wrote: »

My post 18:57, your post, 19:01, video length 11:13.

Maybe check his list of references before jumping to a conclusion about bias.

Are you actually suggesting that he is an impartial source? Come on, you don't have to watch an 11 minute video to be aware that a Vegan YouTube channel might have an agenda.

FWIW, I have watched the video.
He highlighted, using statistical data and real lift muscular vegans (most of whom are likely on steroids btw) that a vegan diet can be adequate for muscle growth and development. You realise that being adequate doesn't mean that alternatives are dangerous. Also, the benchmark for adequacy was RDI minimum amounts, which is not necessarily optimal.
The stuff at the blood markers in a vegan diet vrs typical American diet is irrelevant. A typical American diet is awful. Using that as a comparison is misleading.

There's nothing in that video that suggests whey is dangerous. Only that veganism is safe and adequate as long as you meet requirements, which is a fairly accepted view tbh.

MysticMonk

Most 14 year olds are skinny because they dont eat enough and certainly dont get enough protein. Kids that age tend to be very active and eat small meals and a lot of sweets(I may be wrong on that in this case though). Also they're usually starting to take a stretch upwards which further places high demands on the body for nutrients,especially calcium.
It will do no harm at all for him to supplement with sensible amounts of whey but he won't start to grow muscle properly til he hits puberty and testosterone production begins.

Wanderer78

I'm very wary of all this protein stuff, I do think the 'science' behind it is questionable, I'm not convinced it's all that health for us, as it seems more a marketing ploy than anything. I don't think I'd be recommending it to a teenager, just make sure he's eating healthily and I'm sure he'll be fine.

Alf Veedersane

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I'm very wary of all this protein stuff, I do think the 'science' behind it is questionable, I'm not convinced it's all that health for us, as it seems more a marketing ploy than anything. I don't think I'd be recommending it to a teenager, just make sure he's eating healthily and I'm sure he'll be fine.

What part of the 'science' behind the use of a protein that's in milk is questionable?

If you've ever had yoghurt, the water on top is whey.

Aside from that, a 14-year-old doesn't need whey. It's a supplement. Priority for anyone is to eat first. Supplement if necessary but it won't be necessary for a 14-year-old in any case.

Macy0161

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I'm very wary of all this protein stuff, I do think the 'science' behind it is questionable, I'm not convinced it's all that health for us, as it seems more a marketing ploy than anything.

Whey is in milk, and is a side product of cheese production. If it was good enough for Little Miss Muffet, it's good enough for me...

There's definitely questionable marketing around protein products (Protein Milk for example), but basic whey powder must be the least additional ingredients and lowest margin product out there.

JJJJNR

It would be better in my opinion to get him to eat more protein rich foods, like an extra red meat meal a week the day before a training session, or raw broccoli daily. Organic broccoli being my personal preference. I'm not a vegan or anything but at least broccoli is packed with other well known nutrients that are good for him, even eating porridge in the morning can add a small amount of protein to his diet.

At 14 he is very likely anxious about his appearance, and body shape. Any decisions made now to bulk up could have a bad effect in later life.

Big Nasty

If he starts some weight training (supervised so he doesn't injure himself) he'll be starving and will eat more.

Wanderer78

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

What part of the 'science' behind the use of a protein that's in milk is questionable?

If you've ever had yoghurt, the water on top is whey.

Aside from that, a 14-year-old doesn't need whey. It's a supplement. Priority for anyone is to eat first. Supplement if necessary but it won't be necessary for a 14-year-old in any case.

Macy0161 wrote: »

Whey is in milk, and is a side product of cheese production. If it was good enough for Little Miss Muffet, it's good enough for me...

There's definitely questionable marketing around protein products (Protein Milk for example), but basic whey powder must be the least additional ingredients and lowest margin product out there.

i understand protein is naturally available to us and essential, but i do believe the idea of a lot of the advertised protein products is just a marketing ploy. due to marketing, it is believed males should be big and bulky, just as women are believed should be thin, this is bull****! eat healthily, exercise regularly, and you will be fine. we are filling kids with bull**** ideas, giving them complexes with their growing bodies and minds, and creating products to fix those complexes. its all bull****!

Macy0161

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i understand protein is naturally available to us and essential, but i do believe the idea of a lot of the advertised protein products is just a marketing ploy. due to marketing, it is believed males should be big and bulky, just as women are believed should be thin, this is bull****! eat healthily, exercise regularly, and you will be fine. we are filling kids with bull**** ideas, giving them complexes with their growing bodies and minds, and creating products to fix those complexes. its all bull****!

That's the marketing, not the science which is what you called out!

Mellor

byronbay2 wrote: »

Is this wise for a boy his age? He has not gone through puberty yet and is probably due a growth spurt in the next year anyway. Could there be any dangers or side-effects to starting using this product?

Whey isn't some sinister growth boosting chemical. It's just a foodstuff, derived from milk. "Milk helps you grow big and strong" <<< whey protein. He's probably been having whey from milk/dairy his whole life, like most kids.

Protein is required for growth and survival. A growth spurth needs protein. Everyone from newborn babies to old aged invalids need protein. Some sort of protein, be it dairy, meat, plant protein, or a protein supplement. He should be able to get enough protein from his diet. But there's no issue with using a protein supplement (doesn't necessarily have to be whey) for convience. But bare in mind, if he's a naturally skinny kid he'll need to up his intake overall in order to put on some

Wanderer78

Macy0161 wrote: »

That's the marketing, not the science which is what you called out!

believe it or not, there is such a thing as 'bad science', some of this 'science' is actually just marketing, i.e. questionable peer reviewed work

Mooooo

Give him a pint of milk with meals and plenty lean meats and a bit of fish etc. Most of us were the same when training and young. Given his training and healthy diet he may well be stringer than most his age despite his size

Mellor

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Macy0161 wrote: »

That's the marketing, not the science which is what you called out!

believe it or not, there is such a thing as and 'bad science', some of this 'science' is actually just marketing, i.e. questionable peer reviewed work

Which "science" are you referring to? It's just food. If you have an issue with the body image stuff, that's up to you. But supplement companies didn't invent whey.

I think you are actually falling victim to anti-marketing. You see the bulky buff pictures on labels (marketing to male goals) and assume that's there must be something dangerous.
If you knew it was safe for kids, or even infants, would that allievate your concerns?

Tigger

Mooooo wrote: »

Give him a pint of milk with meals and plenty lean meats and a bit of fish etc. Most of us were the same when training and young. Given his training and healthy diet he may well be stringer than most his age despite his size

Milk and lean meat?
What's wrong with fatty meat

Wanderer78

Mellor wrote: »

Which "science" are you referring to? It's just food. If you have an issue with the body image stuff, that's up to you. But supplement companies didn't invent whey.

I think you are actually falling victim to anti-marketing. You see the bulky buff pictures on labels (marketing to male goals) and assume that's there must be something dangerous.
If you knew it was safe for kids, or even infants, would that allievate your concerns?

there is an area called 'food science'! the term 'body image' is a marketing term. it has been created to give us complexes over our physical image, therefore 'products' can be created in order to 'fix' the issues of our body image, i.e. its a scam! noam chomsky has this one nailed, marketing causes uninformed, irrational thinking and decision making, we are all susceptible to it.

eat healthily, regularly exercise and you ll be fine, i.e. ignore the marketing stuff as best you can

Tigger

Wanderer78 wrote: »

there is an area called 'food science'! the term 'body image' is a marketing term. it has been created to give us complexes over our physical image, therefore 'products' can be created in order to 'fix' the issues of our body image, i.e. its a scam! noam chomsky has this one nailed, marketing causes uninformed, irrational thinking and decision making, we are all susceptible to it.

eat healthily, regularly exercise and you ll be fine, i.e. ignore the marketing stuff as best you can

Whey is food and can be part of a healthy diet.

Wanderer78

Tigger wrote: »

Whey is food and can be part of a health diet.

oh here, jesus!

http://www.badscience.net/

im out, op please dont pump ****e into your child, best of luck

Mooooo

Tigger wrote: »

Milk and lean meat?
What's wrong with fatty meat

Nothing in particular I guess but I don't know too many kids that eat the fatty part of meats, perhaps if it's minced up? I guess with a young lad you need to find out what he wants to eat as well

Dixie Chick

Hi OP, you say that he doesn't have a huge appetite so he will find it hard to gain if not eating enough esp with his level of activity. My partner was underweight and he didnt really want to be taking protein as there is a family history of kidney problems and also, the cost of a good one would add up. He now has a pint of full fat milk with each meal and his weight has steadily gone up.

Mellor

Wanderer78 wrote: »

there is an area called 'food science'! the term 'body image' is a marketing term. it has been created to give us complexes over our physical image, therefore 'products' can be created in order to 'fix' the issues of our body image,

Home in, you are the in that brought up body image. Who exactly has the complex?
To me it's just food when I'm in a rush.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

[
oh here, jesus!

http://www.badscience.net/

im out, op please dont pump ****e into your child, best of luck

As above, I'm not sure you understand what whey actually is.
Or should we all breastfed for life.

Tigger

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh here, jesus!

http://www.badscience.net/

im out, op please dont pump ****e into your child, best of luck

That's an anti vaxer sight and has nothing to do with milk extract

omb0wyn5ehpij9

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh here, jesus!

http://www.badscience.net/

im out, op please dont pump ****e into your child, best of luck

Pump ****e into her son? By that definition, if the OPs son has milk, she is pumping ****e into him :rolleyes:

cormie

Mellor wrote: »

Are you actually suggesting that he is an impartial source? Come on, you don't have to watch an 11 minute video to be aware that a Vegan YouTube channel might have an agenda.

FWIW, I have watched the video.
He highlighted, using statistical data and real lift muscular vegans (most of whom are likely on steroids btw) that a vegan diet can be adequate for muscle growth and development. You realise that being adequate doesn't mean that alternatives are dangerous. Also, the benchmark for adequacy was RDI minimum amounts, which is not necessarily optimal.
The stuff at the blood markers in a vegan diet vrs typical American diet is irrelevant. A typical American diet is awful. Using that as a comparison is misleading.

There's nothing in that video that suggests whey is dangerous. Only that veganism is safe and adequate as long as you meet requirements, which is a fairly accepted view tbh.

The agenda of a vegan is to cause the least amount of harm to all living creatures so don't be put off just because you see the word vegan

What was stated is that a vegan diet meeting the calorific intake, meets or exceeds suggested protein figures. Once that's understood, then all else is equal, there's vegan protein supplements and there's non vegan protein supplements, there's vegan steroid users and there's non vegan steroid users. There's no way to determine whether someone is vegan or not simply by the size of their muscles.

The blood marker thing didn't mention the standard American diet at all, it was referring to the intake of animal protein as a whole.

Here's another video by the same guy relaying studies about the negative health impact of dairy. It's short and to the point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXWaCfWi1_U

An exert from one of the studies linked to here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3249408/pdf/kwr289.pdf

The authors investigated whether early-life residency in certain areas of Iceland marked by distinct differences in
milk intake was associated with risk of prostate cancer in a population-based cohort of 8,894 men born between
1907 and 1935. Through linkage to cancer and mortality registers, the men were followed for prostate cancer
diagnosis and mortality from study entry (in waves from 1967 to 1987) through 2009. In 2002–2006, a subgroup of
2,268 participants reported their milk intake in early, mid-, and current life. During a mean follow-up period of 24.3 years,
1,123 men were diagnosed with prostate cancer, including 371 with advanced disease (stage 3 or higher or prostate
cancer death). Compared with early-life residency in the capital area, rural residency in the first 20 years of life was
marginally associated with increased risk of advanced prostate cancer (hazard ratio ¼ 1.29, 95% confidence interval
(CI): 0.97, 1.73), particularly among men born before 1920 (hazard ratio ¼ 1.64, 95% CI: 1.06, 2.56). Daily milk
consumption in adolescence (vs. less than daily), but not in midlife or currently, was associated with a 3.2-fold risk
of advanced prostate cancer (95% CI: 1.25, 8.28). These data suggest that frequent milk intake in adolescence
increases risk of advanced prostate cancer.

It's enough reason already without the guy even touching on on the whole environment and compassion side of things.

Mellor

cormie wrote: »

The agenda of a vegan is to cause the least amount of harm to all living creatures so don't be put off just because you see the word vegan

I'm an omnivore, my own personal choice. But I've no problem with veganism, at all. But it's hardly a stretch to thing that a person running a youtube channel to promote veganism, would bend the truth in order to encourage others to do less harm.

What was stated is that a vegan diet meeting the calorific intake, meets or exceeds suggested protein figures. Once that's understood, then all else is equal,

Bit of a logical leap there.
Every diet that meets the minimum guidelines isn't automatically equal to all others. There's a difference between adequate and optimal.
And even if a vegan diet can be optimal, that doesn't mean that an onmivore diet is interior or dangerous. As you implied.

As I said, I've no problem with vegans or veganism. But bringing it up unsolicited on a thread is a little preachy, and exactly the stereotype that people associated with vegans.

there's vegan protein supplements and there's non vegan protein supplements, there's vegan steroid users and there's non vegan steroid users. There's no way to determine whether someone is vegan or not simply by the size of their muscles.

Of course, I never said you could tell the size of their muscles.
I'm saying that using examples of steroid users to highlight that vegans an build muscle is a bit disingenuous. Do you get why?

The blood marker thing didn't mention the standard American diet at all, it was referring to the intake of animal protein as a whole.

In order to state that a vegan diet has better/higher levels of something, you need baseline diet to compare that to. Using a typical diet as the baseline is nonsense.
A balanced vegan diet is better than a typical diet simply because a typical diet is awful.

Here's another video by the same guy relaying studies about the negative health impact of dairy. It's short and to the point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXWaCfWi1_U

An exert from one of the studies linked to here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3249408/pdf/kwr289.pdf

There are 1000s of studies every year. It's not difficult to cherry pick the ones that fit an agenda.

Here's one, from the same source site that Mic.The Vegan used.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780128039687000174

Osteoporosis, or low bone mass, currently affects 48 million adults in the United States. Vegans may be at increased risk for developing low bone mass due to lack of adequate consumption of specific bone-benefiting nutrients found largely in animal products, such as calcium, vitamin D, protein, vitamin B12, zinc, and n-3 fatty acids.

Here's another;
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160329184939.htm

Evidence of vegetarian diet permanently shaping human genome to change individual risk of cancer, heart disease
Worldwide map shows frequency of an adaptive allele to a vegetarian diet. By using reference data from the 1000 Genomes Project, a Cornell research team provided evolutionary evidence that the vegetarian diet, over many generations, may have driven the higher frequency of a mutation in the Indian population. The mutation, called rs66698963 and found in the FADS2 gene, is an insertion or deletion of a sequence of DNA that regulates the expression of two genes, FADS1 and FADS2. These genes are key to making long chain polyunsaturated fats. Among these, arachidonic acid is a key target of the pharmaceutical industry because it is a central culprit for those at risk for heart disease, colon cancer, and many other inflammation-related conditions. Treating individuals according to whether they carry 0, 1, or 2 copies of the insertion, and their influence on fatty acid metabolites, can be an important consideration for precision medicine and nutrition.

alanog1

Whey is an ingredient in a lot of the foods we eat including milk. Breast milk protein is mostly made up of whey. As this is considered the gold standard for feeding a child then whey cannot be "bad" for you. It is essentially just powdered food and is considered a whole food

alanog1

Whey is present in most of the foods we eat, including milk. Breast milk protein is almost entirely whey. If this is considered the gold standard for feeding an infant then whey cannot be considered "bad". It is essentially just powdered food, but for a 14 year old it is probably not going to do anything for him because he will be burning so many calories

bings92

Some of these shakes contain creatine. The body produces creatine & if you take extra creatine then you will have to drink gallons of water to wash the excess creatine out of your body. Be carefull of these shakes as they can be harmfull to the body. If he is taking the shakes he will not be hungry. My son is 6ft 5ins weighs 75 kilo very fit 28 yrs. Lives in IOWA USA. Goes to the gym, golf's, ten pin bowling, My son can't put on weight. He was always fit. There is no need for shakes I do realise that you said he is not a great at eating. I would suggest that he go have a talk to his G.P. or dietition before he goes down the road of protien shakes. I wonder if he is listening to his friends who are telling him that these shakes are great for him. But at 14 yrs is very young to start shakes he is still growing. My son is into fitness

cormie

Mellor wrote: »

.

You being an omnivore is indeed your own personal choice, a choice that has been heavily influenced by what you were raised eating, society etc. Saying he's bending the truth makes it sound like the information is incorrect, he's simply presenting research and studies which promote the idea of not causing harm where harm isn't needed.

I'm no way saying diets are equal as long as they meet minimum guidelines, just in terms of this one particular element, protein.

The OP is concerned about the health of their adolescent child, posting an informative video that highlights concerns about exactly what the OP is concerned about is not unsolicited. Also, I never said I was vegan

You're assuming that the examples he gave are steroid users just because they have big muscles while following a plant based diet. It's unfair to say "using examples of steroid users" without knowing for sure. I'm not saying they aren't and they may well be, but non steroid using, non protein supplement taking omnivores I don't think have much advantage over non steroid using, non protein supplement taking herbivores?

Again, I don't see any reference to a standard American diet, just the consumption of animal protein? Also, being vegan doesn't mean being healthy. There's plenty of vegan junk food and plenty of vegans who don't have a clue about nutrition and health.

The first study you link to is proof in itself it's not about being vegan or not. How many of the 48 million Americans with Osteoporisis are vegan I wonder? Calcum, Vitamin D and everything mentioned are all available from non animal sources. Meat is a source of B12 as animals are given B12 supplements. We can skip that step and just take it direct ourselves.

The second study, I just read the part you quoted but the subjects were vegetarian, not vegan, which does not rebut the studies he refers to and may actually support them.






alanog1, I don't think I'll be the only one to say this, but you can't compare whey from a mothers breast milk to whey that's a by product of animal agriculture.

bladespin

bings92 wrote:

Some of these shakes contain creatine. The body produces creatine & if you take extra creatine then you will have to drink gallons of water to wash the excess creatine out of your body. Be carefull of these shakes as they can be harmfull to the body.

They don't, you won't and they're not.

bladespin

bings92 wrote:

Some of these shakes contain creatine. The body produces creatine & if you take extra creatine then you will have to drink gallons of water to wash the excess creatine out of your body. Be carefull of these shakes as they can be harmfull to the body.

They don't, you won't and they're not.

harr

Taking the whey will do no harm to him as people more knowledgeable then me have explained here...the fact is he probably just does not need at it this point in time..he is very active and is probably burning huge amounts of calories so he will probably have to eat bigger portions..at 17-18 when he starts lifting heavier weights then it's the time to be looking at increasing his protein intake by food intake or supplementing his diet with whey protein..

tabby aspreme

Was recently at a talk given to 14/15 year olds starting the Leinster rugby development program, they were told there was no need for any supplements, just eat plenty of non processed fresh food , porridge unsweetened muesli for breakfast, meat fish and veg for protein, spuds pasta bread and pancakes for carbs , fresh fruit, and only drink water or milk , no sports drinks.

harr

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Was recently at a talk given to 14/15 year olds starting the Leinster rugby development program, they were told there was no need for any supplements, just eat plenty of non processed fresh food , porridge unsweetened muesli for breakfast, meat fish and veg for protein, spuds pasta bread and pancakes for carbs , fresh fruit, and only drink water or milk , no sports drinks.

Best advice he is going to get...

Mooooo

cormie wrote: »

You being an omnivore is indeed your own personal choice, a choice that has been heavily influenced by what you were raised eating, society etc. Saying he's bending the truth makes it sound like the information is incorrect, he's simply presenting research and studies which promote the idea of not causing harm where harm isn't needed.

I'm no way saying diets are equal as long as they meet minimum guidelines, just in terms of this one particular element, protein.

The OP is concerned about the health of their adolescent child, posting an informative video that highlights concerns about exactly what the OP is concerned about is not unsolicited. Also, I never said I was vegan

You're assuming that the examples he gave are steroid users just because they have big muscles while following a plant based diet. It's unfair to say "using examples of steroid users" without knowing for sure. I'm not saying they aren't and they may well be, but non steroid using, non protein supplement taking omnivores I don't think have much advantage over non steroid using, non protein supplement taking herbivores?

Again, I don't see any reference to a standard American diet, just the consumption of animal protein? Also, being vegan doesn't mean being healthy. There's plenty of vegan junk food and plenty of vegans who don't have a clue about nutrition and health.

The first study you link to is proof in itself it's not about being vegan or not. How many of the 48 million Americans with Osteoporisis are vegan I wonder? Calcum, Vitamin D and everything mentioned are all available from non animal sources. Meat is a source of B12 as animals are given B12 supplements. We can skip that step and just take it direct ourselves.

The second study, I just read the part you quoted but the subjects were vegetarian, not vegan, which does not rebut the studies he refers to and may actually support them.






alanog1, I don't think I'll be the only one to say this, but you can't compare whey from a mothers breast milk to whey that's a by product of animal agriculture.

Where did you hear that Beef animals are given b12 supplements? ....

tabby aspreme

Mooooo wrote: »

Where did you hear that Beef animals are given b12 supplements? ....

It would be very common to give cattle and sheep mineral and vitamin supplements , some soil types are deficient in certain mineral trace elements and livestock will not thrive without them.

Mooooo

tabby aspreme wrote: »

It would be very common to give cattle and sheep mineral and vitamin supplements , some soil types are deficient in certain mineral trace elements and livestock will not thrive without them.

I'm aware of that but many don't, even when finishing many just use grass and rolled grains to finish depending on time of year. I don't think the b12 from meat is due to the supplementation

Mellor

cormie wrote: »

Saying he's bending the truth makes it sound like the information is incorrect, he's simply presenting research and studies which promote the idea of not causing harm where harm isn't needed.

Bending the truth is disingenuous regardless of whether you lie or not. It's misleading. Just because a statement is technically true doesn't mean it's honest.

Your twisted his video into "whey is dangerous" which is nonsense.

I'm no way saying diets are equal as long as they meet minimum guidelines, just in terms of this one particular element, protein.

You literally used the word equal.

The OP is concerned about the health of their adolescent child, posting an informative video that highlights concerns about exactly what the OP is concerned about is not unsolicited. Also, I never said I was vegan

I didn't see op have any concerns about a animal based diet?

You're assuming that the examples he gave are steroid users just because they have big muscles while following a plant based diet. It's unfair to say "using examples of steroid users" without knowing for sure. I'm not saying they aren't and they may well be,

My assumption has nothing to do with them being vegan. I they were omnivores my opinion would change. One was a IFBB pro bodybuilding champ. Absolutely on steroids.

but non steroid using, non protein supplement taking omnivores I don't think have much advantage over non steroid using, non protein supplement taking herbivores?

I never said they had an advantage.
My point was that using steroid users to make a point about ability to build muscle is misleading.
No sure why you can't understand how thatsvthe case tbh.

Again, I don't see any reference to a standard American diet, just the consumption of animal protein?

In order to say the protein was higher in vegetarians, you need to have another group that it's higher than. If that group is simply a random selection of people, their diet probably wouldn't be great on average. Following?

The first study you link to is proof in itself it's not about being vegan or not. How many of the 48 million Americans with Osteoporisis are vegan I wonder?

According to that study a higher % are probably vegan then the % of the country as a whole.
That's how risk works.

The second study, I just read the part you quoted but the subjects were vegetarian, not vegan,

The study he was quoting, about plasma protein levels, was a vegetarian study, not vegan either.
So you're trying to associate vegan diets with positive studies, nut not negative ones.
Which proves proves my point about cherry picking data.

alanog1, I don't think I'll be the only one to say this, but you can't compare whey from a mothers breast milk to whey that's a by product of animal agriculture.

There's differences between the milks but many of the proteins are the same. Same as the way the sugar in an apple, and in a orange is the same, chemically speaking.

Mellor

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Was recently at a talk given to 14/15 year olds starting the Leinster rugby development program, they were told there was no need for any supplements, just eat plenty of non processed fresh food , porridge unsweetened muesli for breakfast, meat fish and veg for protein, spuds pasta bread and pancakes for carbs , fresh fruit, and only drink water or milk , no sports drinks.

That's pretty much the advice (from most) posters here.

Eat whole food. Eat more whole food to get bigger.

You absolutely don't need protein supplements, nobody does.
But there's no issue or danger if you do use them either. Nutritionally, they are the same as protein in other foodstuffs.

Dtp1979

bings92 wrote: »

Some of these shakes contain creatine. The body produces creatine & if you take extra creatine then you will have to drink gallons of water to wash the excess creatine out of your body. Be carefull of these shakes as they can be harmfull to the body. If he is taking the shakes he will not be hungry. My son is 6ft 5ins weighs 75 kilo very fit 28 yrs. Lives in IOWA USA. Goes to the gym, golf's, ten pin bowling, My son can't put on weight. He was always fit. There is no need for shakes I do realise that you said he is not a great at eating. I would suggest that he go have a talk to his G.P. or dietition before he goes down the road of protien shakes. I wonder if he is listening to his friends who are telling him that these shakes are great for him. But at 14 yrs is very young to start shakes he is still growing. My son is into fitness

Your son sounds underweight TBH. He can't put on weight because he's not eating enough. Simple as that.
And if he was in to his fitness he should probably know protein and creatine are no harm.

AllForIt

OP I wouldn't be too concerned about the protein shakes per-se but what I would watch out for is whether he might be body concious which could lead to an eating disorder. Rugby union referee Nigel Owen who is bulemic did a piece for the BBC recently where on the show one young lad spoke about how he spent a lot of time on instagram and fitness sites where it ended up with him developing an eating disorder. Appears to be a growing problem.

If as you say it's all for the sake of training for his sport then their's nothing to be particularly concerned about and I don't want to worry you unnecessarily but it is something I feel parents should keep an eye out for these days.

Alf Veedersane

AllForIt wrote: »

OP I wouldn't be too concerned about the protein shakes per-se but what I would watch out for is whether he might be body concious which could lead to an eating disorder. Rugby union referee Nigel Owen who is bulemic did a piece for the BBC recently where on the show one young lad spoke about how he spent a lot of time on instagram and fitness sites where it ended up with him developing an eating disorder. Appears to be a growing problem.

If as you say it's all for the sake of training for his sport then their's nothing to be particularly concerned about and I don't want to worry you unnecessarily but it is something I feel parents should keep an eye out for these days.

An eating disorder will manifest itself in his relationship with food - shakes wouldn't be a concern in that regard.

I appreciate that what you're saying is in relation the OP's son possibly becoming fixated on a type of physique and developing am unhealthy relationship with food to try and attain it. But the use of protein shakes isn't a particular red flag in that regard

willmunny1990

The amount of protein people need, even athletes is over exaggerated.

There should be no need for protein shakes, definitely not needed for a 14 year old.

jive

willmunny1990 wrote: »

The amount of protein people need, even athletes is over exaggerated.

There should be no need for protein shakes, definitely not needed for a 14 year old.

This. People should be more concerned about calories than protein. Any reasonable diet with sufficient calories will have sufficient protein.

Adding the word 'protein' in front of a normal food, like chocolate bars and milk, is just a good way to sell things to all the fitness gurus out there.

Mellor

jive wrote: »

This. People should be more concerned about calories than protein. Any reasonable diet with sufficient calories will have sufficient protein.

Adding the word 'protein' in front of a normal food, like chocolate bars and milk, is just a good way to sell things to all the fitness gurus out there.

But calories make you fat...;)