The Tipperary GAA (Club and Intercounty) Thread

Powerhouse · 28-07-2017 05:46PM

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Nope, you just went off on a mad imaginative spiel about events that did not and are not going to happen

No imaginative spiel at all. The events DID happen. The only question is the precise nature of them. As for events that are not going to happen..........let's see about that. If Tipperary don't win the All Irekand title the Barrett decision will forever, rightly or wrongly, be blamed for it and will, rightly or wrongly, undermine Ryan. If they win it Barrett might resent Ryan forever for missing out. Would be be amenable to a phone call in Novemeber to come back? Would Ryan feel empowered if they win without Barrett and decide not to call him back? Will their relationship ever really recover and will Barrett's buddies on the panel continue to support Ryan in any event? Anyone who thinks this story will not have an afterlife is naive.

Powerhouse · 28-07-2017 05:49PM

digzy wrote: »

Ah here, mattered to whom...you?
Grow up and stop acting the clown.

I've mentioned the players who approached the manager. Who were you expecting to lead the 'delegation'...Tos hamill!

To whom? To the two people discussing it. Nobody asked you to get involved.

Where did I say anything about the players who led the "delegation". I couldn't care less who they were.

Joe_ Public · 28-07-2017 05:59PM

Powerhouse wrote: »

No imaginative spiel at all. The events DID happen. The only question is the precise nature of them. As for events that are not going to happen..........let's see about that. If Tipperary don't win the All Irekand title the Barrett decision will forever, rightly or wrongly, be blamed for it and will, rightly or wrongly, undermine Ryan. If they win it Barrett might resent Ryan forever for missing out. Would be be amenable to a phone call in Novemeber to come back? Would Ryan feel empowered if they win without Barrett and decide not to call him back? Will their relationship ever really recover and will Barrett's buddies on the panel continue to support Ryan in any event? Anyone who thinks this story will not have an afterlife is naive.

I agree with some of what you post. But when you talk about the "Barrett decision", I think it's only right to differentiate between Cathal's decision to break the rules laid down by management and Mick's decision to sanction him for it which, let's remember, was made in good faith and for the long term good of Tipperary hurling.

If it turns out that some players - and we'd need to hear more details to be certain - have an issue with this decision and may bear a grudge beyond the end of the season, then I'd be fully with the manager on the facts that we know. It's time for us and them to forget about Cathal now and focus fully on two weeks time and whatever is to come after that. That's all that matters.

digzy · 28-07-2017 06:07PM

Powerhouse wrote: »

To whom? To the two people discussing it. Nobody asked you to get involved.
.

No. Just seems there's one poster bogged down in pedantics. I'll post what I want. If you've an issue use the report button.....jog on

Powerhouse · 28-07-2017 06:36PM

digzy wrote: »

No.

You answered the question, everything else was superfluous. Mind your own business and you'll have no need to torment yourself.

Powerhouse · 28-07-2017 06:45PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I agree with some of what you post. But when you talk about the "Barrett decision", I think it's only right to differentiate between Cathal's decision to break the rules laid down by management and Mick's decision to sanction him for it which, let's remember, was made in good faith and for the long term good of Tipperary hurling.

If it turns out that some players - and we'd need to hear more details to be certain - have an issue with this decision and may bear a grudge beyond the end of the season, then I'd be fully with the manager on the facts that we know. It's time for us and them to forget about Cathal now and focus fully on two weeks time and whatever is to come after that. That's all that matters.

Hard to disagree with any of us from a logical perspective. But this might be played out in an emotional level rather than a logical one. As ever everything depends on results for Ryan and much depends on the nature of the support for Barrett in the Tipperary camp which we can judge only from choice of words in the newspaper report which I felt was fairly neutral but another felt suggested very strong support for Barrett. Time will tell.

Joe_ Public · 28-07-2017 08:26PM

Powerhouse wrote: »

Hard to disagree with any of us from a logical perspective. But this might be played out in an emotional level rather than a logical one. As ever everything depends on results for Ryan and much depends on the nature of the support for Barrett in the Tipperary camp which we can judge only from choice of words in the newspaper report which I felt was fairly neutral but another felt suggested very strong support for Barrett. Time will tell.

Just personally, I wont be blaming Mick Ryan for anything, regardless of how the game/s from here on in go. Maybe he did get a couple of things wrong in relation to the League/pre-Championship training etc, though without being close to the camp, it's hard to gauge that kind of stuff.

Barrett missing is all down to him. He wouldn't have played afterwards anyway and he'd be half-fit for the s/f so very likely wouldn't be playing there either. If they can beat Galway without him, then they can almost certainly beat Cork/Waterford without him so I doubt we'd be saying, in hindsight if it comes to it, that the final hinged on whether he was available or not.

evolving tipperary · 28-07-2017 09:52PM

Powerhouse wrote: »

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Nope, you just went off on a mad imaginative spiel about events that did not and are not going to happen

No imaginative spiel at all. The events DID happen. The only question is the precise nature of them. As for events that are not going to happen..........let's see about that. If Tipperary don't win the All Irekand title the Barrett decision will forever, rightly or wrongly, be blamed for it and will, rightly or wrongly, undermine Ryan. If they win it Barrett might resent Ryan forever for missing out. Would be be amenable to a phone call in Novemeber to come back? Would Ryan feel empowered if they win without Barrett and decide not to call him back? Will their relationship ever really recover and will Barrett's buddies on the panel continue to support Ryan in any event? Anyone who thinks this story will not have an afterlife is naive.

There's that over-the-top imagination again. Ryan laid out his stall from the beginning. Barrett broke the rules. Barrett knows where he stands - he can have no comeback. Everyone knows where they stand. Nobody can have an issue with it. Just because players ADVOCATED for his return doesn't mean they can't just get on it. They will accept it with the maturity to took to ask Ryan to reconsider. Good practice all round I'd say. The issue you're raising is a non-issue. It doesn't exist.

28-07-2017 10:08PM

evolving tipperary wrote: »

There's that over-the-top imagination again. Ryan laid out his stall from the beginning. Barrett broke the rules. Barrett knows where he stands - he can have no comeback. Everyone knows where they stand. Nobody can have an issue with it. Just because players ADVOCATED for his return doesn't mean they can't just get on it. They will accept it with the maturity to took to ask Ryan to reconsider. Good practice all round I'd say. The issue you're raising is a non-issue. It doesn't exist.

Im 100% agreed on this. These guys are 70 minutes away from an All Ireland final and while Cathal would improve the team i would doubt that the lads will take their eyes of the ball and become disenfranchised. I would worry for the full back line though. They were torn asunder the last day.

If they do lose, Mick will get unfair criticism from the county on the basis of his stance but we will benefit in the the long term though.
Mick has put his foot down and gone into territory that no Tipperary manager has dared to go at least not in the modern day. Mick doesnt do populism. This makes a statement. No more messing in Tipperary. Its all duck or no dinner from here on.

Without sounding like im trying to start a footballers v hurlers debate but the footballers are lucky in the sense that they can go in under the radar and not have to live in the high pressured fish bowl that the hurlers live in. I think this is why there is never really a question mark over discipline with the footballers. They can go about their lives with a little bit more freedom and non recognition. That said though i notice that the discussion of Tipperary football defeats and victories are increasing more and more. I think though they are in an ideal position in that even in defeat they will be viewed in the same light as Jack Charltons Irish team. Can do no wrong basically as they have taken us to heights not seeing previously since 1935

Powerhouse · 28-07-2017 10:21PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Just personally, I wont be blaming Mick Ryan for anything, regardless of how the game/s from here on in go. Maybe he did get a couple of things wrong in relation to the League/pre-Championship training etc, though without being close to the camp, it's hard to gauge that kind of stuff.

Barrett missing is all down to him. He wouldn't have played afterwards anyway and he'd be half-fit for the s/f so very likely wouldn't be playing there either. If they can beat Galway without him, then they can almost certainly beat Cork/Waterford without him so I doubt we'd be saying, in hindsight if it comes to it, that the final hinged on whether he was available or not.

That's perfectly logical and your opinion that "Barrett missing is all down to him" seems sensible too. But like I said when emotions run high logical thinking does not always prevail.

28-07-2017 10:28PM

Powerhouse wrote: »

That's perfectly logical and your opinion that "Barrett missing is all down to him" seems sensible too. But like I said when emotions run high logical thinking does not always prevail.

I dont think Mick would willingly drop a player of Cathal Barrett's calibre at a whim though. He is very very calculated in every decision he does whether we agree with it or not and i would certainly trust him here. He has had time to reflect and this is more than the 'naughty step' that Tim Floyd alluded to.

I would say Mick rates attitude and discipline highly. He isnt prepared to indulge anyone. On top of this he has the luxury of a crop of all ireland winning minors coming through which will add further to competition for places down the line. Mark Kehoe has already made the senior matchday panel and more will follow. And Mick has delivered the All ireland only last year

Ipse dixit · 28-07-2017 10:33PM

In reality Barrett coming back in wouldn't change a whole lot. He was poor against Galway the last day and hasn't any form going into the game. Whatever Barrett done he obviously is being made an example of and if that means that in the long run that the players learn a lesson about discipline then that's a good thing.

However, in order to make that decision look good management need to stop messing with the full back line and keeper in order to stop highlighting the obvious omission of Barrett.

Powerhouse · 28-07-2017 10:34PM

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Ryan laid out his stall from the beginning. Barrett broke the rules. Barrett knows where he stands - he can have no comeback. Everyone knows where they stand. Nobody can have an issue with it.

This makes no sense. If it is all this clear and bullet-pointy then why would players (who presumably have some contact with Barrett on the matter) approach the manager at all? It is the players' approach that suggests that Barrett possibly does feel he potentially has a comeback, and not everybody knows where they stand (hence the questions to the manager) and that someone maybe has an issue with it.

The players approaching the manager and raising the matter does imply something less than unanimity in the camp which in any thinking environment is no harm. But if, as you keep screaming, they ADVOCATED (i.e. came with a recommendation for his return) for Barrett's return it implies that we may not be a million miles away from a volcanic moment in the camp.

Powerhouse · 28-07-2017 10:44PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I dont think Mick would willingly drop a player of Cathal Barrett's calibre at a whim though. He is very very calculated in every decision he does whether we agree with it or not and i would certainly trust him here. He has had time to reflect and this is more than the 'naughty step' that Tim Floyd alluded to.

I would say Mick rates attitude and discipline highly. He isnt prepared to indulge anyone. On top of this he has the luxury of a crop of all ireland winning minors coming through which will add further to competition for places down the line. Mark Kehoe has already made the senior matchday panel and more will follow. And Mick has delivered the All ireland only last year

Agreed 100% (in so far as I can comment without direct knowledge of the man) but this is not about the character of Mick Ryan. I am simply pointing out that a group of senior players approaching the manager on the matter and said approach finding its way into the public domain (who leaked the story I wonder, and how does Mick Ryan feel about that?) suggests that there might be landmines further down the road. Results, rather than perceived straightness or stance on qualities such as attitude and discipline, will always dictate the strength of a manager as you concede in the last line of your post "Mick has delivered the All Ireland only last year". Everything is predicated on such delivery. If Tipp fall to a second championship defeat this season next week things might change. That's all I am saying.

Powerhouse · 28-07-2017 10:49PM

Ipse dixit wrote: »

In reality Barrett coming back in wouldn't change a whole lot. He was poor against Galway the last day and hasn't any form going into the game. Whatever Barrett done he obviously is being made an example of and if that means that in the long run that the players learn a lesson about discipline then that's a good thing.

However, in order to make that decision look good management need to stop messing with the full back line and keeper in order to stop highlighting the obvious omission of Barrett.

This is the kernel of it. If the player can be adequately replaced and the area in which he plays is not the perceived weakness then lessons about discipline will go down well with fans. But generally people wouldn't care if their corner back was an axe-murderer if they were winning. If Tipp win the All-Ireland they would, naturally, love that their manager is strong on discipline and is ballsy enough to deliver it in the case of an important player. But losing changes the parameters as does the news that there is what might be interpreted as dissent in the camp on the matter.

28-07-2017 11:06PM

Powerhouse wrote: »

This is the kernel of it. If the player can be adequately replaced and the area in which he plays is not the perceived weakness then lessons about discipline will go down well with fans. But generally people wouldn't care if their corner back was an axe-murderer if they were winning. If Tipp win the All-Ireland they would, naturally, love that their manager is strong on discipline and is ballsy enough to deliver it in the case of an important player. But losing changes the parameters as does the news that there is what might be interpreted as dissent in the camp on the matter.

I see where you are coming from here and you make a great point in that the full back line is so vulnerable that it is a huge call to continue to omit Barrett. There is no denying it is....but i see Micks decision as a good long term decision. We cant simply live for tomorrow only for the sake of discipline.

evolving tipperary · 28-07-2017 11:28PM

Powerhouse wrote: »

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Ryan laid out his stall from the beginning. Barrett broke the rules. Barrett knows where he stands - he can have no comeback. Everyone knows where they stand. Nobody can have an issue with it.

This makes no sense. If it is all this clear and bullet-pointy then why would players (who presumably have some contact with Barrett on the matter) approach the manager at all? It is the players' approach that suggests that Barrett possibly does feel he potentially has a comeback, and not everybody knows where they stand (hence the questions to the manager) and that someone maybe has an issue with it.

The players approaching the manager and raising the matter does imply something less than unanimity in the camp which in any thinking environment is no harm. But if, as you keep screaming, they ADVOCATED (i.e. came with a recommendation for his return) for Barrett's return it implies that we may not be a million miles away from a volcanic moment in the camp.

One can't scream in text. They players approached because they wanted to. You're seeing issues that are not there. You're creating tabloidese gossip out of a small issue. If my aunty had balls she'd be my Uncle - but, that hasn't happened yet. So, no point thinking about it.
There is sense no questioning - but, you've gone so far ahead to talk about volcanic reactions and mick ryan's job being under pressure and the players being uncomfortable.

If they lose to Galway they'll have lost to the form team. No problem. Tipp got to a semi when they're not playing well. And, they still have a chance. All going well, as far as I can see...

evolving tipperary · 28-07-2017 11:34PM

there is sense to questioning*

thesultan · 29-07-2017 12:22AM

Has tipps midfield performed?

Joe_ Public · 29-07-2017 12:56AM

Powerhouse wrote: »

That's perfectly logical and your opinion that "Barrett missing is all down to him" seems sensible too. But like I said when emotions run high logical thinking does not always prevail.

I do understand where you are coming from alright. I'd feel slightly uneasy about the players' actions here myself, but don't know enough to have a definite opinion. It would have been good for it to have happened on the q/t, but as we know in the GAA world, even the dressing room walls have eyes and ears. It would be interesting to know whether this meeting was a result of a full panel get-together or simply a cabal of senior players taking the initiative on their own which might imply a lack of faith in some of their team-mates. Maybe Mick might have told one or two of those guys to simply worry about their own form, but I suspect he's too smart and diplomatic to go down that road!

As long as this doesn't derail or impair the preparation for the s/f, I don't think there's any harm done. If some players are harbouring some sort of resentment on behalf of Barrett, then that's unfortunate but I'd trust them to be ambitious and dedicated enough not to let it affect their own performance. If it did, then I'd say it reflects poorly on them.

I take the point about logic. But look at it another way, how easy would it have been for Ryan to welcome Barrett back, even to sit on the bench, and gain brownie points with his squad and the Tipp public? He'd have made his point with the dropping and then seen a potentially valuable asset return - win/win all round. But no, he's doggedly stuck to his principles and reiterated that when he makes a decision, he sticks to it. Tipp gunner has outlined the value of that apprpach to the county very eloquently, so no need to repeat it here.

evolving tipperary · 29-07-2017 01:10AM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Powerhouse wrote: »

That's perfectly logical and your opinion that "Barrett missing is all down to him" seems sensible too. But like I said when emotions run high logical thinking does not always prevail.

"(...) but don't know enough to have a definite opinion."

Exactly. Lads, read back over your "hypothesis" about what will, may or never regarding players or management... - madness.

This helps no one. It's just **** stirring.

Joe_ Public · 29-07-2017 01:29AM

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Exactly. Lads, read back over your "hypothesis" about what will, may or never regarding players or management... - madness.

This helps no one. It's just **** stirring.

"**** stirring"?? I expect in the long term, none of this will matter very much but dont see personally what's wrong with talking about it. Seems legitimate enough discussion to me anyway.

evolving tipperary · 29-07-2017 03:22AM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Exactly. Lads, read back over your "hypothesis" about what will, may or never regarding players or management... - madness.

This helps no one. It's just **** stirring.

"**** stirring"?? I expect in the long term, none of this will matter very much but dont see personally what's wrong with talking about it. Seems legitimate enough discussion to me anyway.

Entertaining any kind of conversation about a possible disruption in the camp due to this issue is straight up madness.

robbiezero · 29-07-2017 10:20AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I see where you are coming from here and you make a great point in that the full back line is so vulnerable that it is a huge call to continue to omit Barrett. There is no denying it is....but i see Micks decision as a good long term decision. We cant simply live for tomorrow only for the sake of discipline.

If Barrett had been allowed back, it would have shown weakness on Mick Ryans part, effectively saying if you break the rules and let the team down, you will suffer the consequences, but if you are too good to be left out you will be brought back earlier than someone we can do without.
Regardless of result v Galway, I support Ryans decision 100%.
I would read nothing into the players call to bring back Barrett, if Idi Amin was a Tipp man and hurling well, they would call to bring him in. Mick Ryan has to have the bigger picture of Tipp hurling and what it stands for in the county in mind.

robbiezero · 29-07-2017 10:23AM

thesultan wrote: »

Has tipps midfield performed?

They were very quiet against Clare, but if someone had told me beforehand that Clares midfield with their two best hurlers would also be quiet, I'd have taken that.
It was noticeable that they tended to man mark their opposite number rather than get around the pitch.
It was very noticeable that Breen made none of his trade mark burst forward and Brendan didn't drop as deep as usual.

robbiezero · 29-07-2017 10:27AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Im 100% agreed on this. These guys are 70 minutes away from an All Ireland final and while Cathal would improve the team i would doubt that the lads will take their eyes of the ball and become disenfranchised. I would worry for the full back line though. They were torn asunder the last day.

If they do lose, Mick will get unfair criticism from the county on the basis of his stance but we will benefit in the the long term though.
Mick has put his foot down and gone into territory that no Tipperary manager has dared to go at least not in the modern day. Mick doesnt do populism. This makes a statement. No more messing in Tipperary. Its all duck or no dinner from here on.

Without sounding like im trying to start a footballers v hurlers debate but the footballers are lucky in the sense that they can go in under the radar and not have to live in the high pressured fish bowl that the hurlers live in. I think this is why there is never really a question mark over discipline with the footballers. They can go about their lives with a little bit more freedom and non recognition. That said though i notice that the discussion of Tipperary football defeats and victories are increasing more and more. I think though they are in an ideal position in that even in defeat they will be viewed in the same light as Jack Charltons Irish team. Can do no wrong basically as they have taken us to heights not seeing previously since 1935

They are in that, their good victories are met with lots of praise and their defeats are largely free from criticism. There just isn't the same emotional connection within the county as there is with the hurlers.

evolving tipperary · 29-07-2017 05:19PM

robbiezero wrote: »

thesultan wrote: »

Has tipps midfield performed?

They were very quiet against Clare, but if someone had told me beforehand that Clares midfield with their two best hurlers would also be quiet, I'd have taken that.
It was noticeable that they tended to man mark their opposite number rather than get around the pitch.
It was very noticeable that Breen made none of his trade mark burst forward and Brendan didn't drop as deep as usual.

Just rewatching the Clare game - Brendan did give Ronan a lot more protection than previously. So, that's a specific job that will affect his normal game. He had a job to do. I'll think we'll see that same role against Galway. At least now, both Ronan and Brendan have had a trial run at it

tippspur · 31-07-2017 02:00AM

Looking like Joe Dwyer is fit again so FB line for semi should be Donagh Maher,James Barry and Joe O Dwyer hopefully.

evolving tipperary · 31-07-2017 02:13AM

tippspur wrote: »

Looking like Joe Dwyer is fit again so FB line for semi should be Donagh Maher,James Barry and Joe O Dwyer hopefully.

Joe was playing wingback?

shmeee · 31-07-2017 09:27AM

tippspur wrote: »

Looking like Joe Dwyer is fit again so FB line for semi should be Donagh Maher,James Barry and Joe O Dwyer hopefully.

Hamill will be FB

The Tipperary GAA (Club and Intercounty) Thread

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