The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V2

Dirty Dingus McGee · 27-07-2017 12:51PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Perhaps with older balls, but not the newer ones for the last number pf years (which are much lighter). The ball tends to be played on the ground a lot more now than it used to be. Plus, for the US, it's not heading the ball, it's potential clash of heads that they worry about).

Brain function is impaired by heading a modern ball also:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/oct/24/study-finds-heading-football-immediate-effect-brain

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/nov/01/football-heading-brain-damage

Dirty Dingus McGee · 27-07-2017 12:53PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Cause the contact in sports like Rugby and American Football are part of what makes it enjoyable. The hits, the pain, smashing someone in a tackle; they are enjoyable when you are into it. I was dragged along to a game of tag once, never again.

These are team games, with friends that you go into battle with. Wouldn't take back a minute of it.

If you don't get into it in the first place though you don't miss out on it is the point I am making, parents could easily just not allow ther children to play these sports knowing the negatove side affects they can have.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 27-07-2017 01:43PM

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Brain function is impaired by heading a modern ball also:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/oct/24/study-finds-heading-football-immediate-effect-brain

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/nov/01/football-heading-brain-damage

Yes. I don't doubt "constant heading of modern lightweight footballs" can lead to an issue. But as I said, the game is now played a lot more on the ground, so not the issue it may once have been. Good research should continue, it's needed.

"Dawn Astle told the Mail on Sunday: “Would I be surprised if damaging effects of heading are found? No. The question is: what are they going to do about it? What are the authorities going to do to protect our children?”"
This is the type of hyperbole I would hope the discussion around CTE can avoid.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 27-07-2017 01:58PM

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

If you don't get into it in the first place though you don't miss out on it is the point I am making, parents could easily just not allow ther children to play these sports knowing the negatove side affects they can have.

Golf requires a lot of equipment, and access to a golf course. Much more expense that grabbing a football or rugby ball. And not sure how much benefit it adds in terms of fitness (and the clear benefits that offers) when compared.

Tennis and basketball requires access to courts, not really accessible to that many, and not really suitable to high number who may wish to access it.

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

parents could easily just not allow ther children to play these sports knowing the negatove side affects they can have.

Driving in a car can have a negative affect if in an accident, but we still do it. Cycling a bike is the same.

I don't doubt CTE. I don't doubt the damage it can do (if you are going to head a ball all day fired from a machine at you, yeah, that's not good). But we do have athletes who played at the top level for years (not to mention all those down the levels), retire, and lead long lives. Clearly some encounter issues, and that's why the investigations are needed.

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman · 27-07-2017 02:00PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I don't doubt CTE. I don't doubt the damage it can do (if you are going to head a ball all day fired from a machine at you, yeah, that's not good). But we do have athletes who played at the top level for years (not to mention all those down the levels), retire, and lead long lives. Clearly some encounter issues, and that's why the investigations are needed.

110 out of 111 ... your head is buried in the sand. Exactly where the NFL wants it.

Dirty Dingus McGee · 27-07-2017 02:02PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Yes. I don't doubt "constant heading of modern lightweight footballs" can lead to an issue. But as I said, the game is now played a lot more on the ground, so not the issue it may once have been. Good research should continue, it's needed.

"Dawn Astle told the Mail on Sunday: “Would I be surprised if damaging effects of heading are found? No. The question is: what are they going to do about it? What are the authorities going to do to protect our children?”"
This is the type of hyperbole I would hope the discussion around CTE can avoid.

I don't think it is really hyperbole which is the problem for any of these type of sports and is a problem for the NFL and the sport of American Football in general.

There are so many sports out their that have no negative side affects to them that there isn't really any reason why parents won't push their children towards these sports instead of risker ones.

Dawn Astles father died at the age of 60 because of the affects of heading a football so of all the people to be accusing of hyperbole she isn't one of them.

Podge_irl · 27-07-2017 02:07PM

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

110 out of 111 ... your head is buried in the sand. Exactly where the NFL wants it.

110 out of 111 people who had self-selected themselves on the basis that they had symptoms suggesting they might be suffering from it.

adrian522 · 27-07-2017 02:08PM

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

110 out of 111 ... your head is buried in the sand. Exactly where the NFL wants it.

Hold on a minute, first of all that is a very low sample size and secondly brains that are donated for research are more likely to have CTE as the families suspect that and then put forward for donation. If someone led a full, happy life then they are less likely to be analysed like this.

Secondly, these are all NFL players, which is a tiny fraction of football players generally. They need more research on the impacts on players who only play 3 or 4 years in high school, or who only go as far as NCAA level.

Yes, 110 out of 111 is very, very high but we can't then go on to say that 99% of Football players will develop CTE, the evidence isn't there to suggest that.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 27-07-2017 02:19PM

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

110 out of 111 ... your head is buried in the sand. Exactly where the NFL wants it.

You can try insult me if you wish, no prob, it's more of a reflection on you.
And I'm not denying that report (I suspect that it's correct), so why is my head in the sand?

Dirty Dingus McGee · 27-07-2017 02:22PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Golf requires a lot of equipment, and access to a golf course. Much more expense that grabbing a football or rugby ball. And not sure how much benefit it adds in terms of fitness (and the clear benefits that offers) when compared.

Tennis and basketball requires access to courts, not really accessible to that many, and not really suitable to high number who may wish to access it.

Driving in a car can have a negative affect if in an accident, but we still do it. Cycling a bike is the same.

I don't doubt CTE. I don't doubt the damage it can do (if you are going to head a ball all day fired from a machine at you, yeah, that's not good). But we do have athletes who played at the top level for years (not to mention all those down the levels), retire, and lead long lives. Clearly some encounter issues, and that's why the investigations are needed.

You can get fitness by running around aswell, you don't even have to join a team.All I was saying was that other sports could use this negative aspect of American Football as a way of promoting their own sports and driving people away from it.

Why practice a hobby with negative side affects when you can have one with none is the point I was making and I'm sure it's a challenge that American Football going to face in the future from rival sports.

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman · 27-07-2017 02:26PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

You can try insult me if you wish, no prob, it's more of a reflection on you.
And I'm not denying that report (I suspect that it's correct), so why is my head in the sand?

I'm absolutely not trying to insult you or anyone. What I am saying is that in this study 110 of 111 is worth more than saying it happens to some players but alot go on to have fine lives.

The thing on CTE is the NFL have been trying to suppress this information for years, because of potential lawsuits. Lets not try to make this about anything other than money. Because thats the only thing that drives the NFL. They dont care about players or fans.

mikemac2 · 27-07-2017 02:26PM

John Urschel, centre/guard for the Ravens has retired. A 5th round pick from Penn St in 2014. Entirely his own choice, he was in no danger of being cut

Don't feel bad for him, he won't end up a bankrupt ex pro. He can take his double masters from Penn St and PhD from MIT and apply to NASA to be a rocket scientist

If you'd like to feel dumb here is one of his papers
http://math.mit.edu/~urschel/cmg.pdf

Dirty Dingus McGee · 27-07-2017 02:28PM

adrian522 wrote: »

Hold on a minute, first of all that is a very low sample size and secondly brains that are donated for research are more likely to have CTE as the families suspect that and then put forward for donation. If someone led a full, happy life then they are less likely to be analysed like this.

Secondly, these are all NFL players, which is a tiny fraction of football players generally. They need more research on the impacts on players who only play 3 or 4 years in high school, or who only go as far as NCAA level.

Yes, 110 out of 111 is very, very high but we can't then go on to say that 99% of Football players will develop CTE, the evidence isn't there to suggest that.

There is defintely an air of confirmaiton bias to it , still the figures are quite shocking.I do wonder will they ever do a proper full scale research of all people who've played football for the fear of finding out something they may not want to as they can always use what you've said as a justifable reason not to be too worried.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 27-07-2017 02:32PM

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I don't think it is really hyperbole which is the problem for any of these type of sports and is a problem for the NFL and the sport of American Football in general.

When people begin "won't people think of the children", then yes, I say hyperbole. Cause millions of kids have been playing various contact sports for decades, and we haven't seen the huge result of deaths from it.
This isn't a famine, or abuse, or natural disaster. Yes, further investigations required; but going over the top isn't needed for the general person out there.

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

There are so many sports out their that have no negative side affects to them that there isn't really any reason why parents won't push their children towards these sports instead of risker ones.

Well, I say there is a reason. Team spirit, building relationships with a group, with individuals that become life long friends, being on your knees and having the drive to get up, losing together and winning together, personal growth........ I'm not saying all these are unique to these type of contact related sports, but there is a reason to play them.

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Dawn Astles father died at the age of 60 because of the affects of heading a football so of all the people to be accusing of hyperbole she isn't one of them.

If she uses that type of quote, then yes, it's a hyperbole. Her father died, tragic. Millions didn't. Again, research should continue, but putting kids into a bubble (as a hyerbole counter argument) isn't good for them either.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 27-07-2017 02:36PM

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

I'm absolutely not trying to insult you or anyone. What I am saying is that in this study 110 of 111 is worth more than saying it happens to some players but alot go on to have fine lives.

The thing on CTE is the NFL have been trying to suppress this information for years, because of potential lawsuits. Lets not try to make this about anything other than money. Because thats the only thing that drives the NFL. They dont care about players or fans.

Accusing me of my head in the sand, when I didn't dispute the that report; yeah, not an insult.
If you want to take that report, and that report alone, then ok. But you've got to check the entire details of the report; it had a specific purpose and specific brains that were checked. All part of the bigger picture, but should not be single focused.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 27-07-2017 02:38PM

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

You can get fitness by running around aswell, you don't even have to join a team.All I was saying was that other sports could use this negative aspect of American Football as a way of promoting their own sports and driving people away from it.

Why practice a hobby with negative side affects when you can have one with none is the point I was making and I'm sure it's a challenge that American Football going to face in the future from rival sports.

Yeah, I agree with you on that point. I guess for those sports, they might not want to 'use' CTE in that way. If the facts come out from a full and comprehensive study, then they might not need to.

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman · 27-07-2017 02:45PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Accusing me of my head in the sand, when I didn't dispute the that report; yeah, not an insult.
If you want to take that report, and that report alone, then ok. But you've got to check the entire details of the report; it had a specific purpose and specific brains that were checked. All part of the bigger picture, but should not be single focused.

It wasn't meant as an insult, if your taking it as one so be it.

For far too long the NFL have hidden reports on CTE and concussions in general.

The game is a cash cow and as such the game doesn't want to know about anything that can hurt it.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 27-07-2017 03:07PM

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

It wasn't meant as an insult, if your taking it as one so be it.

For far too long the NFL have hidden reports on CTE and concussions in general.

The game is a cash cow and as such the game doesn't want to know about anything that can hurt it.

Telling someone they have their head in the sand, isn't an insult? And then using the 110/111 report, which I didn't reference/deny. Methinks you might have your own head too far buried under the sand to read what's in front of you (no insult of course).

Of course they hid it. They didn't want to know about it. Things have begun to change, it's now mentioned on a regular basis and awareness has grown. Still needs to be checked further and the NFL/teams/players to be more forthcoming.

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman · 27-07-2017 03:15PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Telling someone they have their head in the sand, isn't an insult? And then using the 110/111 report, which I didn't reference/deny. Methinks you might have your own head too far buried under the sand to read what's in front of you (no insult of course).

Of course they hid it. They didn't want to know about it. Things have begun to change, it's now mentioned on a regular basis and awareness has grown. Still needs to be checked further and the NFL/teams/players to be more forthcoming.

Regardless it's unlikely to change anything in the near future. But I'm sure the lawsuits from former players will have a bigger impact.

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman · 27-07-2017 03:28PM

adrian522 wrote: »

Hold on a minute, first of all that is a very low sample size and secondly brains that are donated for research are more likely to have CTE as the families suspect that and then put forward for donation. If someone led a full, happy life then they are less likely to be analysed like this.

Secondly, these are all NFL players, which is a tiny fraction of football players generally. They need more research on the impacts on players who only play 3 or 4 years in high school, or who only go as far as NCAA level.

Yes, 110 out of 111 is very, very high but we can't then go on to say that 99% of Football players will develop CTE, the evidence isn't there to suggest that.

Of the 202 brains studied, 87 per cent were found to have CTE. The study found that the high school players had mild cases, while college and professional players showed more severe effects. But even those with mild cases exhibited cognitive, mood and behavioral symptoms.

Again small sample sizes , but enough to be significantly problematic for the NFL in the future. Especially considering some of the large lawsuits that are lined up against them regarding CTE.

adrian522 · 27-07-2017 03:36PM

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

Of the 202 brains studied, 87 per cent were found to have CTE. The study found that the high school players had mild cases, while college and professional players showed more severe effects. But even those with mild cases exhibited cognitive, mood and behavioral symptoms.

Again small sample sizes , but enough to be significantly problematic for the NFL in the future. Especially considering some of the large lawsuits that are lined up against them regarding CTE.

There were only 3 confirmed cases in high school players (out of 14), which is a lot but hard to read too much into 3 cases.

But again as the study points out

The study points out potential bias because relatives of these players may have submitted their brains due to clinical symptoms they noticed while they were living. It also acknowledges the lack of a comparison group that represents all individuals exposed to college-level or professional football. Without that, the study lacks an overall estimate on the risk of participation in football and its effects on the brain.

All that they've shown so far is that people who play football are at risk for this disease, not that x% of football players will develop CTE.

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman · 27-07-2017 03:50PM

adrian522 wrote: »

There were only 3 confirmed cases in high school players (out of 14), which is a lot but hard to read too much into 3 cases.

But again as the study points out

All that they've shown so far is that people who play football are at risk for this disease, not that x% of football players will develop CTE.

3 out of 14 high schoolers I would imagine is alot higher than normal. And absolutely its a specialised report with a focus on CTE and people with high probability of having some sort of signs that they suffered from it.

OldMrBrennan83 · 27-07-2017 04:31PM

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brinty · 27-07-2017 04:34PM

Patww79 wrote: »

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Has jim been having words in John's ear....
Kaep could be a decent replacement for Joe Flakko...

adrian522 · 27-07-2017 04:50PM

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

3 out of 14 high schoolers I would imagine is alot higher than normal. And absolutely its a specialised report with a focus on CTE and people with high probability of having some sort of signs that they suffered from it.

But the sample size is crazy small and as you say from a population with a high likelihood of a positive result. Can't really read anything into it unfortunately.

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman · 27-07-2017 04:57PM

adrian522 wrote: »

But the sample size is crazy small and as you say from a population with a high likelihood of a positive result. Can't really read anything into it unfortunately.

For high schoolers maybe.

I don't think there is any doubt that football significantly increases your chances of developing CTE.

OldMrBrennan83 · 27-07-2017 04:58PM

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The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman · 27-07-2017 04:59PM

Patww79 wrote: »

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He has been pretty terrible the last two years.

adrian522 · 27-07-2017 04:59PM

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

For high schoolers maybe.

I don't think there is any doubt that football significantly increases your chances of developing CTE.

Going around in circles again. Exact point I made a few posts up.

All that they've shown so far is that people who play football are at risk for this disease, not that x% of football players will develop CTE.

OldMrBrennan83 · 27-07-2017 05:02PM

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The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V2

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