VW emissions software update - disaster

Miike · 25-07-2017 08:18PM

grogi wrote: »

In Germany, the cars that weren't presented to be fixed, will be deemed illegal starting from 28 August.

http://www.autozeitung.de/kba-vw-diesel-stilllegung-189667.html

I wish I saw such decisiveness from our Government...

Yeah lets force people to ruin cars they paid tens of thousands for, or at least out law them! :mad::mad::mad::mad:

jk.

Azatadine · 25-07-2017 08:35PM

grogi wrote: »

In Germany, the cars that weren't presented to be fixed, will be deemed illegal starting from 28 August.

http://www.autozeitung.de/kba-vw-diesel-stilllegung-189667.html

I wish I saw such decisiveness from our Government...

I have no intention of getting mine done. Why would I want to make it worse?

grogi · 25-07-2017 09:09PM

Cortecs wrote: »

I have no intention of getting mine done. Why would I want to make it worse?

grogi wrote: »

I wish I saw such decisiveness from our Government...

I rest my point...

Odyssey 2005 · 25-07-2017 09:14PM

Consider it rested.

Riva10 · 26-07-2017 07:02AM

grogi wrote: »

I rest my point...

Just as well. Being righteous must be very tiring. :P
You might consider moving to Germany. :rolleyes:

benny79 · 26-07-2017 11:31AM

Thank you for contacting Volkswagen Customer Care.

Whilst I understand you are disappointed in Volkswagen, the fact remains that your vehicle is of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described at the point of sale despite this NOx issue. To be clear, this issue relates to the characteristics of nitrogen oxides (NOx) when experiencing test conditions. Information regarding NOx emissions levels was not included in the sales literature for your vehicle. The CO2 emissions and fuel economy figures which were provided are unaffected by this NOx issue, as is the affected vehicles’ performance. There is no evidence that this NOx issue impacts the fuel consumption or any other aspect of the affected vehicles’ performance during normal use. There is also no evidence to suggest that the affected vehicles present a risk to public health or the environment as a result of the NOx issue. Further, the affected vehicles have been approved by an independent approval authority and therefore have EU type-approval which remains valid. The NOx issue has no impact on the safety or roadworthiness of your vehicle, and your vehicle is legally allowed to be driven on the roads despite this issue.

This is not a mandatory safety recall, but a voluntary service action. It is entirely at the discretion of yourself should you wish to have this update carried out.

Should you wish to discuss this further please do not hesitate to contact US.

Kind Regards,

Ciara Griffin
Volkswagen Customer Care Department
Volkswagen Group Ireland Limited
Block C, Liffey Valley Office Campus
Liffey Valley, Dublin 22
( Off: 1850 812761 (Passenger Cars)
( Off: 1850 812762 (Commercial Vehicles)
*:VWCUSTOMER.SERVICE@volkswagen.ie
www.volkswagen.ie
www.volkswagenvans.ie

That is the reply I got from VW after I wrote a strongly worded email about the issues that have been noted after the update has been done.

benny79 · 26-07-2017 11:31AM

Thank you for contacting Volkswagen Customer Care.

Whilst I understand you are disappointed in Volkswagen, the fact remains that your vehicle is of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described at the point of sale despite this NOx issue. To be clear, this issue relates to the characteristics of nitrogen oxides (NOx) when experiencing test conditions. Information regarding NOx emissions levels was not included in the sales literature for your vehicle. The CO2 emissions and fuel economy figures which were provided are unaffected by this NOx issue, as is the affected vehicles’ performance. There is no evidence that this NOx issue impacts the fuel consumption or any other aspect of the affected vehicles’ performance during normal use. There is also no evidence to suggest that the affected vehicles present a risk to public health or the environment as a result of the NOx issue. Further, the affected vehicles have been approved by an independent approval authority and therefore have EU type-approval which remains valid. The NOx issue has no impact on the safety or roadworthiness of your vehicle, and your vehicle is legally allowed to be driven on the roads despite this issue.

This is not a mandatory safety recall, but a voluntary service action. It is entirely at the discretion of yourself should you wish to have this update carried out.

Should you wish to discuss this further please do not hesitate to contact US.

Kind Regards,

Ciara Griffin
Volkswagen Customer Care Department
Volkswagen Group Ireland Limited
Block C, Liffey Valley Office Campus
Liffey Valley, Dublin 22
( Off: 1850 812761 (Passenger Cars)
( Off: 1850 812762 (Commercial Vehicles)
*:VWCUSTOMER.SERVICE@volkswagen.ie
www.volkswagen.ie
www.volkswagenvans.ie

That is the reply I got from VW after I wrote a strongly worded email about the issues that have been noted after the update has been done.

grogi · 26-07-2017 11:43AM

benny79 wrote: »

Thank you for contacting Volkswagen Customer Care.

Whilst I understand you are disappointed in Volkswagen, the fact remains that your vehicle is of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described at the point of sale despite this NOx issue. To be clear, this issue relates to the characteristics of nitrogen oxides (NOx) when experiencing test conditions. Information regarding NOx emissions levels was not included in the sales literature for your vehicle. The CO2 emissions and fuel economy figures which were provided are unaffected by this NOx issue, as is the affected vehicles’ performance. There is no evidence that this NOx issue impacts the fuel consumption or any other aspect of the affected vehicles’ performance during normal use. There is also no evidence to suggest that the affected vehicles present a risk to public health or the environment as a result of the NOx issue. Further, the affected vehicles have been approved by an independent approval authority and therefore have EU type-approval which remains valid. The NOx issue has no impact on the safety or roadworthiness of your vehicle, and your vehicle is legally allowed to be driven on the roads despite this issue.

This is not a mandatory safety recall, but a voluntary service action. It is entirely at the discretion of yourself should you wish to have this update carried out.

SERIOUSLY?!

Riva10 · 26-07-2017 11:44AM

benny79 wrote: »

Thank you for contacting Volkswagen Customer Care.

Whilst I understand you are disappointed in Volkswagen, the fact remains that your vehicle is of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described at the point of sale despite this NOx issue. To be clear, this issue relates to the characteristics of nitrogen oxides (NOx) when experiencing test conditions. Information regarding NOx emissions levels was not included in the sales literature for your vehicle. The CO2 emissions and fuel economy figures which were provided are unaffected by this NOx issue, as is the affected vehicles’ performance. There is no evidence that this NOx issue impacts the fuel consumption or any other aspect of the affected vehicles’ performance during normal use. There is also no evidence to suggest that the affected vehicles present a risk to public health or the environment as a result of the NOx issue. Further, the affected vehicles have been approved by an independent approval authority and therefore have EU type-approval which remains valid. The NOx issue has no impact on the safety or roadworthiness of your vehicle, and your vehicle is legally allowed to be driven on the roads despite this issue.

This is not a mandatory safety recall, but a voluntary service action. It is entirely at the discretion of yourself should you wish to have this update carried out.

Should you wish to discuss this further please do not hesitate to contact US.

Kind Regards,

Ciara Griffin
Volkswagen Customer Care Department
Volkswagen Group Ireland Limited
Block C, Liffey Valley Office Campus
Liffey Valley, Dublin 22
( Off: 1850 812761 (Passenger Cars)
( Off: 1850 812762 (Commercial Vehicles)
*:VWCUSTOMER.SERVICE@volkswagen.ie
www.volkswagen.ie
www.volkswagenvans.ie

That is the reply I got from VW after I wrote a strongly worded email about the issues that have been noted after the update has been done.

Based on the above reply from VW, it would appear that Germany have overstepped their authority by declaring unmodified VW vehicles as illegal.
The vehicles effected and unmodified will still have EU type approval. :rolleyes:

zilog_jones · 26-07-2017 11:48AM

grogi wrote: »

SERIOUSLY?!

I suspect the fix makes minimal difference in NOx emissions during real world driving, so I think what they're saying is that the fix won't make the bad situation any better

grogi · 26-07-2017 11:53AM

zilog_jones wrote: »

I suspect the fix makes minimal difference in NOx emissions during real world driving, so I think what they're saying is that the fix won't make the bad situation any better

It does substantial difference - there were links to a german newspaper doing a real-world test. The economy suffered a bit, while the NOx emission was cut dramatically.

Found it: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/autocar-test-shows-worse-economy-after-volkswagen-diesel-fix

grogi · 26-07-2017 11:58AM

Anyway, someone on another forum has tested his 2.0 TDI on a rolling road before and after.

Claimed spec: 170 PS / 350 Nm

Before fix: 179 PS / 379 Nm
After fix 179,8 PS / 380 Nm

Riva10 · 26-07-2017 12:22PM

grogi wrote: »

Anyway, someone on another forum has tested his 2.0 TDI on a rolling road before and after.

Claimed spec: 170 PS / 350 Nm

Before fix: 179 PS / 379 Nm
After fix 179,8 PS / 380 Nm

And your "reliable" source for this information is ?

And I expect this "test" was carried out by an accredited testing facility and not a backstreet garage with a greasy floor.

zilog_jones · 26-07-2017 12:25PM

grogi wrote: »

It does substantial difference - there were links to a german newspaper doing a real-world test. The economy suffered a bit, while the NOx emission was cut dramatically.

Found it: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/autocar-test-shows-worse-economy-after-volkswagen-diesel-fix

Not sure about you but I don't drive on rolling roads...

grogi · 26-07-2017 12:56PM

Riva10 wrote: »

And your "reliable" source for this information is ?
And I expect this "test" was carried out by an accredited testing facility and not a backstreet garage with a greasy floor.

So as long as it supports your thesis, the 'I feel it is not the same' is enough. But if it does not, you're looking for an accreditation

The test is good enough for me to see that there was no significant difference in power output.

Anyway, I though we were here to exchange information and thought. It seems however that your agenda is only to support your decision not to fix based on a belief that
* VW built great cars (because you did buy one, didn't you),
* VW manage to brake all those great cars when they could not release a reasonable fix.

Doesn't it sound contradictory? If you don't trust the German Engineering, flog the car. Who knows what lurks in the brake lines. They also designed the car to brake three weeks after the warranty expires. As part of the delivery, the dealer needs to put how much of it you purchased, so the car knows when to blow the gasket. But if you do, there is no reason not do to the fix and replace the EGR should it fail as well.

But of course the forum wisdom is all above that...

dubrov · 26-07-2017 01:03PM

grogi wrote: »

there is no reason not do to the fix and replace the EGR should it fail as well.

You have got to be kidding right.
How many times do VW have to lie before you stop believing them?

I can definitely see prices diverging for second hand cars that have and haven't had the fix applied.

Neilw · 26-07-2017 01:05PM

grogi wrote: »

Anyway, someone on another forum has tested his 2.0 TDI on a rolling road before and after.

Claimed spec: 170 PS / 350 Nm

Before fix: 179 PS / 379 Nm
After fix 179,8 PS / 380 Nm

Not a valid comparison without seeing the graphs.
Peak power and torque could be the same but how it's delivered would affect how the car feels to drive.

Azatadine · 26-07-2017 01:10PM

dubrov wrote: »

I can definitely see prices diverging for second hand cars that have and haven't had the fix applied.

I think so too.

Riva10 · 26-07-2017 01:20PM

grogi wrote: »

So as long as it supports your thesis, the 'I feel it is not the same' is enough. But if it does not, you're looking for an accreditation
The test is good enough for me to see that there was no significant difference in power output.

Anyway, I though we were here to exchange information and thought. It seems however that your agenda is only to support your decision not to fix based on a belief that
* VW built great cars (because you did buy one, didn't you),
* VW manage to brake all those great cars when they could not release a reasonable fix.

Doesn't it sound contradictory? If you don't trust the German Engineering, flog the car. Who knows what lurks in the brake lines. They also designed the car to brake three weeks after the warranty expires. As part of the delivery, the dealer needs to put how much of it you purchased, so the car knows when to blow the gasket. But if you do, there is no reason not do to the fix and replace the EGR should it fail as well.

But of course the forum wisdom is all above that...

As long winded as the above is, it still does not answer the question and request in my previous post.

grogi · 26-07-2017 01:26PM

dubrov wrote: »

You have got to be kidding right.
How many times do VW have to lie before you stop believing them?

I NEVER believed VW. That's why I never bought any Volkswagen car.

But what I believe is that they would not try to cheat again while being under such scrutiny.

dubrov · 26-07-2017 02:10PM

grogi wrote:

But what I believe is that they would not try to cheat again while being under such scrutiny.

They would (with German government approval) if the only alternative was bankruptcy.

jackofalltrades · 26-07-2017 03:00PM

grogi wrote: »

In Germany, the cars that weren't presented to be fixed, will be deemed illegal starting from 28 August.

http://www.autozeitung.de/kba-vw-diesel-stilllegung-189667.html

I wish I saw such decisiveness from our Government...

Does anyone know what this will mean in practical terms?
I only have a google translate to work off and it talks about being at risk of having your car "decommissioned".
Are German authorities going to seize 728,000 cars, especially coming up to an election?

benny79 · 28-07-2017 12:59PM

So since the last email I caught of VW highlighting my concerns about getting the update dont and how can the explain all the issues people are having and that I didnt accept their answers I got a further response below

Thank you for your return email.

Unfortunately, we would be unable to comment on anyone else’s vehicle only your own. Whilst we understand your cause of concern in having the update carried out we can assure you that the vast majority of customers have been fully satisfied with the technical measures. The Volkswagen Group has received approval and released technical measures for over 117,000 vehicles in the Republic of Ireland and has implemented the technical measures in vehicles in the Republic of Ireland and in over 3 million vehicles across Europe. Of those, only a very small number of customers have reported what they consider to be a change in their vehicle following implementation of the technical measures.

Should any issues arise after the update is carried we would advise any of our customers to return to the retailer where they had the update carried out for them to investigate it further.

As previously advised this is not a mandatory safety recall, but a voluntary service action. It is entirely at the discretion of yourself should you wish to have this update carried out.

Kind Regards,

Ciara Griffin
Volkswagen Customer Care Department
Volkswagen Group Ireland Limited
Block C, Liffey Valley Office Campus
Liffey Valley, Dublin 22
( Off: 1850 812761 (Passenger Cars)
( Off: 1850 812762 (Commercial Vehicles)
*:VWCUSTOMER.SERVICE@volkswagen.ie
www.volkswagen.ie
www.volkswagenvans.ie

dubrov · 28-07-2017 01:47PM

benny79 wrote: »

Should any issues arise after the update is carried we would advise any of our customers to return to the retailer where they had the update carried out for them to investigate it further. We then expect the retailer to initially deny the EGR problem was caused by the fix and then reluctantly offer a goodwill gesture to repair the EGR as long as the customer covers the labour costs. Secretly, we are already aware of this issue and have agreed with dealers to supply replacement EGR parts free of charge providing they cover the costs.

I've added some extra text which it appears VW left out by mistake..

mikeecho · 28-07-2017 02:08PM

Why are people willingly (blindly) getting this update.

You have a number of choices

1: Ignore any corrispondance

2: Get the update

3: Get the update, then immediately get the car remapped, to pre update mode

4: Get update, and then remapped for more power

5: Get update, and then remapped for more fuel economy.

6: Change the car.

7: Go online and whinge

There are 6 options available before you get to option 7

Stallingrad · 28-07-2017 02:54PM

mikeecho wrote: »

Why are people willingly (blindly) getting this update.

You have a number of choices

1: Ignore any corrispondance

2: Get the update

3: Get the update, then immediately get the car remapped, to pre update mode

4: Get update, and then remapped for more power

5: Get update, and then remapped for more fuel economy.

6: Change the car.

7: Go online and whinge

There are 6 options available before you get to option 7

I've heard from one highly respected remapper in Dublin that VW are locking down the ECU, so they cant do anything with it.

Toyotafanboi · 28-07-2017 03:40PM

Stallingrad wrote: »

I've heard from one highly respected remapper in Dublin that VW are locking down the ECU, so they cant do anything with it.

Sounds like he's spinning a bit of a yarn tbh.

bazz26 · 28-07-2017 05:41PM

A fair share of ECU's have been encrypted for a good few years now. They can still be remapped, the mapper doing it just needs to be good at what they do.

grogi · 02-08-2017 07:38AM

I guess I was wrong. Scumbags...

VW admits its fix may not make a difference in the real world

http://energydesk.greenpeace.org/2017/06/30/vw-fix-volkswagen-no-significant-difference-real-world/

Gwynston · 02-08-2017 09:52AM

Not much of a surprise really.
I always took the view that the recall was just a show of contrition by VW - they were caught red handed with the defeat software and the update was mostly about removing it. While they did actually break the law in the US by falsifying the declared NOx figures, regulation for NOx is not so strict in the EU and the update had little to achieve in practice.

Here's my biggest take away from that article:

The current flawed car approval system… continues to protect the interests of the car industry instead of the public’s health.

I don't doubt that other manufacturers are also taking advantage of the flawed EU testing system. While VW took it too far with the defeat software, I'm sure most other engines sold are also designed to show best figures in the control environment of the test lab rather than in real world use.

And not just to look good in test results - there are valid design reasons why engine output would vary in different environments and temperatures. But the test system doesn't measure those...

VW emissions software update - disaster

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