VW emissions software update - disaster

Golfgorfield

So i own a 2010 Golf GTD with DSG.
I received the letter to have the car made legal again for arguments sake amd decided to let my vw dealer do ot when in for service.
Its a 60,000 mile very well maintained with all main dealer stamps.
The car pulls like a train through the gears and when in sport mode it holds the revs in the high torque band brilliantly and is a joy to drive.

Well it was.......

After the software upgrade ive driven it over the weekend and it is certainly not the car it was, it feels much slower and its much more revvy and much less torquey.... in sport mode it doesnt hold the revs like it did and the dsg has become a bit dopey, theres also a slight vibration/wobble under acceleration at low speed which has appeared.

Has anyone any experience of this situation?
Im raging i got it done at all now.
I have phoned VW who stated they guarantee the car should feel exactly the same... just like they guaranteed all their engines were within emissions laws........

Has anyone noticed any differences after they had theirs done?

bear1

Go back to them and demand the car be put right.
You should not be given a car back which is worse off than before.
Maybe as a just in case, see if any codes are thrown up during a scan.

NIMAN

Thats shocking......I'm sure you could have lived with its emissions the way it was.

knipex

Don't think they can legally put it back as it was. Perhaps they could look at the issue.

I have refused point blank to let them do mine and it will not get inside the door of a main dealer until I am 100% satisfied that it will not impact on the car.

_Kaiser_

Have you owned it from new? If not, any chance the previous owner had it remapped at some point which would have (I'm guessing) been overwritten by the "fix" and why you're seeing less performance now?

Special Circumstances

As said (ish) in the other thread by somebody else - there is ZERO upside to the individual owner getting this done.

Especially if it's your own money and your own time off work is getting you there to get it done.

If VW were facing some kind of sanctions or being forced into some payment to owners you'd at least think the EU were taking it seriously. They are not.

Golfgorfield

NIMAN wrote: »

Thats shocking......I'm sure you could have lived with its emissions they way it was.

I know, im raging i got it done.

Golfgorfield

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Have you owned it from new? If not, any chance the previous owner had it remapped at some point which would have (I'm guessing) been overwritten by the "fix" and why you're seeing less performance now?

I thought of that, and i bought it from its 1st owner, it 100% wasnt remapped.

Golfgorfield

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Have you owned it from new? If not, any chance the previous owner had it remapped at some point which would have (I'm guessing) been overwritten by the "fix" and why you're seeing less performance now?

My previous was a 140bhp Gt Tdi Golf with dsg also.
It genuinely feels like my 140 did now.

Golfgorfield

knipex wrote: »

Don't think they can legally put it back as it was. Perhaps they could look at the issue.

I have refused point blank to let them do mine and it will not get inside the door of a main dealer until I am 100% satisfied that it will not impact on the car.

Under no circumstance get yours done, and if you must, get a dyno done before and after (something i now really regret not doing)

_Kaiser_

Special Circumstances wrote: »

If VW were facing some kind of sanctions or being forced into some payment to owners you'd at least think the EU were taking it seriously. They are not.

It's even more ridiculous when you see what the Americans are getting in compensation for the SAME issue.

But then, VW is German and no doubt contributes significantly to their tax take, Germany runs the EU, so.........


As an aside though, is it ALL VW group cars sold during a given period that are affected, regardless of engine size? My A6 being an import means I'll never get a letter (thankfully it seems!) but as it's a 2010 I'm guessing it might be affected as well?

KCross

Golfgorfield wrote: »

I have phoned VW who stated they guarantee the car should feel exactly the same... just like they guaranteed all their engines were within emissions laws........

This was one statement that I never understood from VW and always felt they were further covering up.

If there truly was no difference in power to make the emissions clean why put the defeat device in there in the first place!?

It seemed inevitable to me that the power would reduce after the fix, particularly for higher powered models.

Special Circumstances

Golfgorfield wrote: »

Under no circumstance get yours done, and if you must, get a dyno done before and after (something i now really regret not doing)

Does ANYONE have a before and after for the fix?
Dyno and/or fuel consumption? With some attempt at being scientific about it?

Has anyone who attempted to publish this info met with an unfortunate hunting accident or what?

ml100

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/volkswagen-emissions-scandal/8-reports-of-volkswagen-tiguans-losing-power-after-ea189-emissions-fix/

Seems to be an issue with 2.0 dsg

Toyotafanboi

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Does ANYONE have a before and after for the fix?
Dyno and/or fuel consumption? With some attempt at being scientific about it?

Has anyone who attempted to publish this info met with an unfortunate hunting accident or what?

This is my biggest query.

All the enthusiasts, all the haters, all the government's and all the regulatory authorities and the worldwide automotive press and nobody, anywhere seems to have done a before and after comparison in a scientific way for changes to NoX/ BHP, torque, fuel consumption or anything else.

I genuinely find that a bit unusual.

johnny_tractor

thats a disgrace,

surely you can demand that they put the car back the way it was

colm_mcm

johnny_tractor wrote: »

thats a disgrace,

surely you can demand that they put the car back the way it was

Nope. Not without them admitting there's a problem. That said they revised some of the fixes so far I think. There was an issue with the 2.0 140 on some models that they updated because it was causing engine knocking.

George Dalton

Looks like it's remap time :pac:

Micky 32

George Dalton wrote: »

Looks like it's remap time :pac:

Even if you didn't want a remapp a good remapper should have an original file to put it back the way it was?

There has to be a reason they put a cheat in so i'm quite sure that no way will the car perform the way it used to once "fixed"

George Dalton

Micky 32 wrote: »

Even if you didn't want a remapp a good remapper should have an original file to put it back the way it was?

There has to be a reason they put a cheat in so i'm quite sure that no way will the car perform the way it used to once "fixed"

Yes of course it is possible to get the old ECU software version re-flashed.

Shefwedfan

Join the Irish court case and give details of issue to it.....

George Dalton

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Join the Irish court case and give details of issue to it.....

Or maybe just realise that you've done something a bit stupid and take the steps needed to reverse the outcome.

If people just used their brain for 10 seconds they would realise this is a no win scenario.

Consider the following proposal:
You give me €50.

The very best outcome you can expect from this transaction is that I give you back €50

But there is no guarantee that I will give you back €50, it might be €49, it might be €45, but I won't tell you in advance, you'll just have to wait and see.

Who in their right mind would accept that deal? Nobody. And yet people are going to VW dealers in their droves to have this "fix" carried out.

I just can't get my head around it.....

ml100

George Dalton wrote: »

Or maybe just realise that you've done something a bit stupid and take the steps needed to reverse the outcome.

If people just used their brain for 10 seconds they would realise this is a no win scenario.

Consider the following proposal:
You give me €50.

The very best outcome you can expect from this transaction is that I give you back €50

But there is no guarantee that I will give you back €50, it might be €49, it might be €45, but I won't tell you in advance, you'll just have to wait and see.

Who in their right mind would accept that deal? Nobody. And yet people are going to VW dealers in their droves to have this "fix" carried out.

I just can't get my head around it.....

Some of it is the dealer pushing it, the dealer is paid for all this work, the more that get 'fixed' the more money they get, plus most people don't know any better and trust what they are told, I.e. No change in the cars performance etc.

Booked my golf in for a service last week and was told that it would need to get the emission fix, told them I didn't want it done yet until I looked into it more to see what was involved, I was then told I'd have to sign something stating I didn't want it done, they were quick enough with this, they are not as quick to query vw on goodwill known fault repair work
!

Neilw

George Dalton wrote: »

Or maybe just realise that you've done something a bit stupid and take the steps needed to reverse the outcome.

If people just used their brain for 10 seconds they would realise this is a no win scenario.

Consider the following proposal:
You give me €50.

The very best outcome you can expect from this transaction is that I give you back €50

But there is no guarantee that I will give you back €50, it might be €49, it might be €45, but I won't tell you in advance, you'll just have to wait and see.

Who in their right mind would accept that deal? Nobody. And yet people are going to VW dealers in their droves to have this "fix" carried out.

I just can't get my head around it.....

You're not a fan at all George are you lol, I'm glad I bought a petrol dub!

JohnBoy26

George Dalton wrote: »

Or maybe just realise that you've done something a bit stupid and take the steps needed to reverse the outcome.

If people just used their brain for 10 seconds they would realise this is a no win scenario.

Consider the following proposal:
You give me €50.

The very best outcome you can expect from this transaction is that I give you back €50

But there is no guarantee that I will give you back €50, it might be €49, it might be €45, but I won't tell you in advance, you'll just have to wait and see.

Who in their right mind would accept that deal? Nobody. And yet people are going to VW dealers in their droves to have this "fix" carried out.

I just can't get my head around it.....

Because they are led to believe that there is something wrong with their car and it needs to be "fixed" You and anyone that knows about cars can see through this "fix" but your average joe who knows nothing(or not much)about cars will know no better. They are led to believe that there is something wrong with their car and this is the solution to the problem.

kyote00

what is the 'fix' they apply ?

Is it this ?
http://newatlas.com/volkswagen-diesel-cheat-fix/40625/

Golfgorfield

George Dalton wrote: »

Looks like it's remap time :pac:

I think ur right, can you recommend who woukd be best for my car?

dar83

Golfgorfield wrote: »

I think ur right, can you recommend who woukd be best for my car?

If only there was someone here that was a well respected VAG mechanic and authorised Revo dealer.... Can't think of anyone....


:pac:

_Brian

Reading this, just got letter for my Tiguan 140, regular gearbox, thinking I just won't bother getting it "fixed".

Did they reset the DSG box?
might explain some of it

Golfgorfield

dar83 wrote: »

If only there was someone here that was a well respected VAG mechanic and authorised Revo dealer.... Can't think of anyone....


:pac:

Any chance of a bit of info... ive been semi ridiculed enough for being so stupid to have got the car done in the first place!

benny79

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's even more ridiculous when you see what the Americans are getting in compensation for the SAME issue.

But then, VW is German and no doubt contributes significantly to their tax take, Germany runs the EU, so.........


As an aside though, is it ALL VW group cars sold during a given period that are affected, regardless of engine size? My A6 being an import means I'll never get a letter (thankfully it seems!) but as it's a 2010 I'm guessing it might be affected as well?

I have a 09 passat 140 bhp Tdi import and I got a letter!.. I have it booked in for the 24th I asked what the story was and they said it will only take an hour to fix as its just a software update! but Im thinking how could there be such a scandal if it only an hour to fix and just a simple software update!

So are people recommending not to get it done?

I also noticed that the second market regards VW has been affected as they have really lost there valve my 09 Passat are going for 4 and 5 grand now :mad: disgraceful as the sole reason I bought VW was because they hold there valve.

ABC101

KCross wrote: »

Golfgorfield wrote: »

I have phoned VW who stated they guarantee the car should feel exactly the same... just like they guaranteed all their engines were within emissions laws........

This was one statement that I never understood from VW and always felt they were further covering up.

If there truly was no difference in power to make the emissions clean why put the defeat device in there in the first place!?

It seemed inevitable to me that the power would reduce after the fix, particularly for higher powered models.

Good question indeed.
However they lied to the regulators about the emission levels.
Now they are lying again... to the owners about the performance level of the car after the fix / update.
I never could understand how a 2lt Golf R can produce almost 300bhp and yet have less emissions than most other 2lt petrol cars, road tax around 590 euro.
For example a petrol 2.5lt 4 cylinder Subaru Outback has a road tax of 1200 euro / year... but it is a modern engine producing about 165 bhp.
The only way you can produce more power... is burning more fuel... which means more emissions.
A fact most regulators don't seem to be able to understand.

colm_mcm

benny79 wrote: »

I also noticed that the second market regards VW has been affected as they have really lost there valve my 09 Passat are going for 4 and 5 grand now :mad: disgraceful as the sole reason I bought VW was because they hold there valve.

The emissions scandal has had little or no offer on the values of 8 year old cars, most of which aren't affected by the scandal.
The uk market has plenty to export, (like your own), this is the biggest factor in the price of 09 passats. Also there's plenty sheds for sale too. The cheapest examples are always cheap for a reason.

benny79

colm_mcm wrote: »

The emissions scandal has had little or no offer on the values of 8 year old cars, most of which aren't affected by the scandal.
The uk market has plenty to export, (like your own), this is the biggest factor in the price of 09 passats. Also there's plenty sheds for sale too. The cheapest examples are always cheap for a reason.

Yes but mine is now 8 years old and has been affected by the scandal, but I get what you're saying about second hand market and price..

dar83

Golfgorfield wrote: »

Any chance of a bit of info... ive been semi ridiculed enough for being so stupid to have got the car done in the first place!

Apologies, the very person you quoted is the man you need to talk to.

http://www.daltons.ie

colm_mcm

ABC101 wrote: »

Good question indeed.
However they lied to the regulators about the emission levels.
Now they are lying again... to the owners about the performance level of the car after the fix / update.
I never could understand how a 2lt Golf R can produce almost 300bhp and yet have less emissions than most other 2lt petrol cars, road tax around 590 euro.
For example a petrol 2.5lt 4 cylinder Subaru Outback has a road tax of 1200 euro / year... but it is a modern engine producing about 165 bhp.
The only way you can produce more power... is burning more fuel... which means more emissions.
A fact most regulators don't seem to be able to understand.

Efficiency comes into it too though. Power and fuel consumption aren't directly related.

benny79

colm_mcm wrote: »

Efficiency comes into it too though. Power and fuel consumption aren't directly related.

Colm would you advise against getting the update done?

Golfgorfield

Current situation is the car is now back in the main dealer, they have provided a high spec replacement car and have told me they are going to fully investigate and test drive the car.

the test drive will as i pointed out be pointless as they have nothing to compare it to....

I've a feeling im going to be disappointed, but im determined to put up a hell of a fight for some kind of resolution.

0lddog

colm_mcm wrote: »

Efficiency comes into it too though. Power and fuel consumption aren't directly related.

Also, diesel engines are thermodynamically inherently more efficient than petrol engines

Special Circumstances

0lddog wrote: »

Also, diesel engines are thermodynamically inherently more efficient than petrol engines

Prius atkinson cycle 1.8 isn't that far off average small capacity diesels in terms of thermal efficiency.

Edit... seems to be better than many!

ABC101

colm_mcm wrote: »

ABC101 wrote: »

Good question indeed.
However they lied to the regulators about the emission levels.
Now they are lying again... to the owners about the performance level of the car after the fix / update.
I never could understand how a 2lt Golf R can produce almost 300bhp and yet have less emissions than most other 2lt petrol cars, road tax around 590 euro.
For example a petrol 2.5lt 4 cylinder Subaru Outback has a road tax of 1200 euro / year... but it is a modern engine producing about 165 bhp.
The only way you can produce more power... is burning more fuel... which means more emissions.
A fact most regulators don't seem to be able to understand.

Efficiency comes into it too though. Power and fuel consumption aren't directly related.

I agree, and I also agree that new designs / approaches have been undertaken in improving efficiencies, ie. Variable vane turbo's, direct injection, VVTi, stroke / bore ratio, different combustion cycles the list goes on and on etc.
But these improvements in efficiency tend to be more incremental, 2% here, 5% here, 10% there etc.
But a 100% increase in power (i.e. a typical 2lt 150 bhp, vrs a 2lt 300bhp) with a corresponding 30% or 40% drop in emissions is just too good to be true if you ask me.
Some manufacturers have lied about emissions, but they were also lying about fuel consumption, how many posters on boards have stated ... my car is stated to give X mpg, but the best I'm getting is 75% of X  at best.
We both know very little in life is something for free.   Most designs are a trade off / compromise to get a improvement in one area for a decrease in another.
If that was the case all manufacturers would just dump their current designs and follow the example of VW.
Maybe a 80% increase in power for the same emissions could be possible with new technologies vrs and older design.
But even if you had a engine which was 100% efficient you are still limited by stoichiometric parameters and a 1 lt of fuel contains x amount of energy.   Its not as if a liter of petrol in a VW fuel tank suddenly has 2X the energy amount vrs a liter of petrol in a Ford fuel tank.

As for the OP, whether to get the update reversed it depends really.
If the update improves the emissions then it could make the car slightly more sellable, saying it has been sorted by VW and all compliant.   The majority of car owners just drive from A to B, not really interested in a 10% increase in performance.
If in the near future the NCT change their testing and start looking for NOx and particulate matter then you might be best off going with the update.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

This was one statement that I never understood from VW and always felt they were further covering up.

If there truly was no difference in power to make the emissions clean why put the defeat device in there in the first place!?

It seemed inevitable to me that the power would reduce after the fix, particularly for higher powered models.

+1

You can only get NOx down if you make the car more efficient and / or less powerful. I'd love to see some emissions / dyno tests before and after the "fix". Surely someone has done this?

Golfgorfield

ABC101 wrote: »

I agree, and I also agree that new designs / approaches have been undertaken in improving efficiencies, ie. Variable vane turbo's, direct injection, VVTi, stroke / bore ratio, different combustion cycles the list goes on and on etc.
But these improvements in efficiency tend to be more incremental, 2% here, 5% here, 10% there etc.
But a 100% increase in power (i.e. a typical 2lt 150 bhp, vrs a 2lt 300bhp) with a corresponding 30% or 40% drop in emissions is just too good to be true if you ask me.
Some manufacturers have lied about emissions, but they were also lying about fuel consumption, how many posters on boards have stated ... my car is stated to give X mpg, but the best I'm getting is 75% of X  at best.
We both know very little in life is something for free.   Most designs are a trade off / compromise to get a improvement in one area for a decrease in another.
If that was the case all manufacturers would just dump their current designs and follow the example of VW.
Maybe a 80% increase in power for the same emissions could be possible with new technologies vrs and older design.
But even if you had a engine which was 100% efficient you are still limited by stoichiometric parameters and a 1 lt of fuel contains x amount of energy.   Its not as if a liter of petrol in a VW fuel tank suddenly has 2X the energy amount vrs a liter of petrol in a Ford fuel tank.

As for the OP, whether to get the update reversed it depends really.
If the update improves the emissions then it could make the car slightly more sellable, saying it has been sorted by VW and all compliant.   The majority of car owners just drive from A to B, not really interested in a 10% increase in performance.
If in the near future the NCT change their testing and start looking for NOx and particulate matter then you might be best off going with the update.

Given my car, a Golf GTD, prospective buyers (me included) would be more concerned the car is at its full performance, rather than worrying if its emissions are high etc. This is my gripe, i saved hard for years to buy a GTD, found a great one and bought it based on its driving experience, now thats been taken away completely!

Golfgorfield

unkel wrote: »

+1

You can only get NOx down if you make the car more efficient and / or less powerful. I'd love to see some emissions / dyno tests before and after the "fix". Surely someone has done this?

Ive trawled forums far and wide and cant find anyone thats done a before and after.

ABC101

Golfgorfield wrote: »

Given my car, a Golf GTD, prospective buyers (me included) would be more concerned the car is at its full performance, rather than worrying if its emissions are high etc.  This is my gripe, i saved hard for years to buy a GTD, found a great one and bought it based on its driving experience, now thats been taken away completely!

From the EVO website article I looked up, they state 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, 181 bhp and 45 mpg.
Are you getting anywhere near those figures?
Or has power gone down but your fuel efficiency increased?
Unless you get proper real world verifiable / proven figures it is very hard to tell exactly, even if you know from driving the car it's characteristics have changed dramatically.
Going back to VW and stating that the car is not the same because it just feels different is not going to cut the mustard.
You would have to get repeatable / verifiable / proven figures for the engine's performance and have them plotted / compared to what the design parameters are supposed to be.
Then you could go back to VW and state I am being cheated twice, the first time I bought the car, the second time now that the car is updated.
If you are correct, sounds like you have gone from a GTD to a D.

Special Circumstances

Don't you reduce NOx by making a car LESS efficient rather than more efficient? You need to run richer (producing more CO2 and more particulates) to reduce less NOx?

High temperatures and lean mixes are good for efficiency but produce a lot of NOx.

ABC101

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Don't you reduce NOx by making a car LESS efficient rather than more efficient?  You need to run richer (producing more CO2 and more particulates) to reduce less NOx?

High temperatures and lean mixes are good for efficiency but produce a lot of NOx.

Also it depends on the type of fuel burned as well.
Biodiesel is not the same as Ultra Low Sulphur diesel.   Some fuels contain more nitrogen in the fuel etc.
But as a general rule, higher combustion pressures and temperatures favor Nox production.  
As diesels run at higher compression ratio's (than petrol) they produce more Nox.

Buffman

ml100 wrote: »

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/volkswagen-emissions-scandal/8-reports-of-volkswagen-tiguans-losing-power-after-ea189-emissions-fix/

Seems to be an issue with 2.0 dsg

Wow! Just reading through the dozens of comments below that article would put me off ever buying a VAG, let alone getting this 'fix' done! Anyone thinking of getting it done should have a thorough read.

unkel wrote: »

+1
I'd love to see some emissions / dyno tests before and after the "fix". Surely someone has done this?

Golfgorfield wrote: »

Ive trawled forums far and wide and cant find anyone thats done a before and after.

One of the guys in those comments found a chap who'd dynoed a 2.0 A5 before and after. Some substantial losses of power and torque between 1600-2600 RPM according to his data.

BigAndyG on 5 December 2016
I had good look around on the web after my second (ignored) reminder and found someone who had actually had his car dynoed before and after the update. I too do not know why none of the motoring press or Watchdog or... haven't done this. Anyway the results are quite damning and back up a lot of what has been said here about ~1500-2500 rpm and loss of power and torque. I have graphed these plots (as best I can) and that's exactly what they seem to show. I sent them to Audi and they wouldn't engage on showing me their test data but just trotted out the old "maximum torque is not affected" line - which is true but very misleading for driveability etc.They also mention an increased EGR rate! I've put the graphs at this link:

1drv.ms/b/s!AvcWk_HHJ7e2lSKCPGtHBV19b90L

Golfgorfield

ABC101 wrote: »

From the EVO website article I looked up, they state 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, 181 bhp and 45 mpg.
Are you getting anywhere near those figures?
Or has power gone down but your fuel efficiency increased?
Unless you get proper real world verifiable / proven figures it is very hard to tell exactly, even if you know from driving the car it's characteristics have changed dramatically.
Going back to VW and stating that the car is not the same because it just feels different is not going to cut the mustard.
You would have to get repeatable / verifiable / proven figures for the engine's performance and have them plotted / compared to what the design parameters are supposed to be.
Then you could go back to VW and state I am being cheated twice, the first time I bought the car, the second time now that the car is updated.
If you are correct, sounds like you have gone from a GTD to a D.

My car is the 170bhp variant.

My previous car was a GT 140bhp golf and my GTD now feels slower and less torquey than the old 140bhp Golf i had.

I could get it Dyno'd yes but this is costly, based on VW stating in writing nothing should change then this may be my best route to go if they done resolve it in the garage.

KCross

Golfgorfield wrote: »

My car is the 170bhp variant.

My previous car was a GT 140bhp golf and my GTD now feels slower and less torquey than the old 140bhp Golf i had.

I could get it Dyno'd yes but this is costly, based on VW stating in writing nothing should change then this may be my best route to go if they done resolve it in the garage.

You have a 7yr old car so they will probably say that you cant expect the car to have day 1 stats.

The only hope, I'd say you had, was to have a before and after dyno done and then their letter showing that it would not affect it.... the horse has bolted now!

Your opinion or subjective comments on power loss will be duly ignored, I'd say.