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EV cost savings

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  • 14-07-2017 2:08pm
    #1
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭


    Inspired by this post, I wanted to create a thread where we can list our savings by switching to EV.

    Previous car: 2002 bmw 320d
    Monthly fuel cost: €350
    Tax: €59/month (710p.a.)
    Insurance: €64/month (800p.a.)
    Depreciation: €0
    Loan Repayments: €0

    Total ICE -bangernomic - monthly cost:€473

    Current EV: Nissan Leaf 2014 24kWh
    Monthly fuel cost: €20
    Tax: €10/month (120p.a.)
    Insurance: €64/month (800p.a.)
    Depreciation: estimated at €1200 so far based on current values, so approx €120/month
    loan repayments: €240/month

    Total EV monthly cost: €454

    Therefore, at 50,000 km per year, I'm saving only €20 per month. Still saving money and driving a newer cleaner more reliable car with better spec but I thought it would be more.

    What's your experience? For comparison please use the same headings (and let me know if I've left anything out!!)


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Comments

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    #2
    stesaurus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭stesaurus


    You're forgetting maintenance for a start


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    #3
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,229 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Obviously when your loan is paid off, thats when you'll start to make savings.


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    #4
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    stesaurus wrote: »
    You're forgetting maintenance for a start

    On the EV? There is none for me anyway.
    For an ICE car if there was anything more than incidental I'd just change the car. It's hard to quantify.


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    #5
    ei9go
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭ei9go


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Inspired by this post, I wanted to create a thread where we can list our savings by switching to EV.

    Previous car: 2002 bmw 320d
    Monthly fuel cost: €350
    Tax: €59/month (710p.a.)
    Insurance: €64/month (800p.a.)
    Depreciation: €0
    Loan Repayments: €0

    Total ICE -bangernomic - monthly cost:€473

    Current EV: Nissan Leaf 2014 24kWh
    Monthly fuel cost: €20
    Tax: €10/month (120p.a.)
    Insurance: €64/month (800p.a.)
    Depreciation: estimated at €1200 so far based on current values, so approx €120/month
    loan repayments: €240/month

    Total EV monthly cost: €454

    Therefore, at 50,000 km per year, I'm saving only €20 per month. Still saving money and driving a newer cleaner more reliable car with better spec but I thought it would be more.

    What's your experience? For comparison please use the same headings (and let me know if I've left anything out!!)

    I feel that by adding depreciation and your loan repayments, you are multiplying your costs by 2.
    Thats why your savings are so small.
    Your depreciation is already in your loan repayments.

    And how is your insurance 800 euro on an ev?
    We paid 363 this year for the Zoe with no claims bonus protection added.


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    #6
    goz83
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    You're also forgetting that you would have had a loan had you bought an ICE 2014 car.


    In my case (just working from 1 Leaf).

    Previous car: 2003 Mercedes Benz E200K
    Monthly fuel cost: €200
    Tax: €53/month (636p.a.)
    Insurance: €50/month (600p.a.)
    Depreciation: €0
    Loan Repayments: €0

    Total ICE -bangernomic - monthly cost:€303

    Current EV: Nissan Leaf 2014 24kWh
    Monthly fuel cost: €15
    Tax: €10/month (120p.a.)
    Insurance: €50/month (600p.a.)
    Depreciation: estimated at €1200 so far based on current values, so approx €120/month
    loan repayments: €0/month

    Total EV monthly cost: €195

    For me, the depreciation means nothing, but I left it there anyway. If I used the other Leaf as an example, the saving would be more.


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    #7
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,130 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Previous car: '03 Jaguar S-type
    Annual fuel cost: €2500
    Tax: €1700
    Insurance: €550
    Depreciation: €0
    Maintenance + tyres: €500
    Total: €5250

    EV: Ioniq
    Annual fuel cost: €20
    Tax: €120
    Insurance: €400
    Depreciation: €2500
    Maintenance + tyres: €200
    Total: €3240


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    #8
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    ei9go wrote: »
    I feel that by adding depreciation and your loan repayments, you are multiplying your costs by 2.
    Thats why your savings are so small.
    Your depreciation is already in your loan repayments.

    And how is your insurance 800 euro on an ev?
    We paid 363 this year for the Zoe with no claims bonus protection added.

    That depends. If financed through PCP then you could argue that it is double counting, but a standard credit union loan not quite. It really depends on personal circumstances and how often you change and the residual you have permanently tied up in a vehicle.


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    #9
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,130 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Actual repayments are not part of the total cost of ownership of the car. The depreciation of the car is, and so is the cost of credit. And even if you had the cash in the bank, you should really add an "opportunity costs of money", as you could have used that money to earn interest etc. instead of buying a car.

    Now with current interest rates on savings account near zero, it's not so much a material cost any more...


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    #10
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,312 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    ei9go wrote: »
    I feel that by adding depreciation and your loan repayments, you are multiplying your costs by 2.
    Thats why your savings are so small.
    Your depreciation is already in your loan repayments.

    Not the way I see it.
    Depreciation is an accounting concept to amortise the cost of an asset over the expected useful life of the asset, along with, perhaps a residual.

    It is a cash loss and therefore is a cost.

    A loan is a loan so clear enough.

    Simple way to think about it,
    You borrow 25k to buy the car and assume no insurance.
    The car gets written off at the first traffic lights after the forecourt.

    You have just lost an asset but still have the debt

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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    #11
    isnottheword
    Registered Users Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭isnottheword


    I don't get how that's a valid comparison ELM327. Surely you need to make the comparison between 2 cars of equal value if you're taking capital costs into consideration?

    Also, doesn't the opportunity of getting into driving something much newer bring new toys/gadgetry with it? I guess it could be argued that it also brings a certain curtailment in terms of driving distances/range and the like.


    Previous car: 2008 Ford Fiesta 1.4 TDCi Van
    Monthly fuel cost: €160
    Tax: €32/month (385p.a.)
    Insurance: €37.50/month (€450p.a.)
    *Depreciation: ?
    Loan Repayments: N/A
    Maintenance/Servicing: €42/month (€500 minimum pa)
    Tyres - N/a (not counting them as same as EV)

    *Total ICE - monthly cost:€272

    Current EV: Nissan Leaf 2014 24kWh
    Monthly fuel cost: €5
    Tax: €10/month (120p.a.)
    Insurance: €37.50/month (€450p.a.)
    *Depreciation: ?
    loan repayments: n/a
    Maintenance: €8/month (€100/p.a.)

    *Total EV - monthly cost: €60.50

    I'm not sure where I stand comparatively on *depreciation so I've left that out. It's been argued here - is there even a difference between similar valued/aged EV's and ICE's OR is there a disparity in the first 3 years and not so much after that?


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    #12
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,211 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    My OH is making great savings on her fuel bill. It is zero, as I pay the ESB bill.


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    #13
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    isnottheword wrote: »
    I don't get how that's a valid comparison ELM327. Surely you need to make the comparison between 2 cars of equal value if you're taking capital costs into consideration?

    Also, doesn't the opportunity of getting into driving something much newer bring new toys/gadgetry with it? I guess it could be argued that it also brings a certain curtailment in terms of driving distances/range and the like.
    Oh i agree completely.
    But it was a comparison for my costs, based on what I was paying before and what I am paying now. I would not have bought a 2014 ICE! (too sensible/frugal/cheapskate - take your pick).

    If you were to take the equivalent ICE (probably a Pulsar/Juke?) compared to the leaf, then the savings would be in the hundreds per month, sure we all know that!:D


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    #14
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    ei9go wrote: »
    I feel that by adding depreciation and your loan repayments, you are multiplying your costs by 2.
    Thats why your savings are so small.
    Your depreciation is already in your loan repayments.

    And how is your insurance 800 euro on an ev?
    We paid 363 this year for the Zoe with no claims bonus protection added.

    My insurance is ~800 and that was the cheapest I could get. Zurich through a broker.

    Re the loan repayments + depreciation they have to be both added. If you don't add the loan repayment then I'm not getting a true reflection of what I am paying for my car per month. If you don't add depreciation it won't reflect correctly the ammortized cost of the asset funded by the loan.

    In the real world however there is no depreciation coming from my bank account and it is less than the repayments of the loan, so I can see it as double counting also.


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    #15
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Inspired by this post, I wanted to create a thread where we can list our savings by switching to EV.

    Previous car: 2002 bmw 320d
    Monthly fuel cost: €350
    Tax: €59/month (710p.a.)
    Insurance: €64/month (800p.a.)
    Depreciation: €0
    Loan Repayments: €0

    Total ICE -bangernomic - monthly cost:€473

    Current EV: Nissan Leaf 2014 24kWh
    Monthly fuel cost: €20
    Tax: €10/month (120p.a.)
    Insurance: €64/month (800p.a.)
    Depreciation: estimated at €1200 so far based on current values, so approx €120/month
    loan repayments: €240/month

    Total EV monthly cost: €454

    Therefore, at 50,000 km per year, I'm saving only €20 per month. Still saving money and driving a newer cleaner more reliable car with better spec but I thought it would be more.

    What's your experience? For comparison please use the same headings (and let me know if I've left anything out!!)

    apples and oranges comparison

    no allowance made for repairs on a 15 year old BMW diesel ( which are crocks anyway )

    I suggest you look at service and repair bills from the BMW past 5 years say and factor in that against the leafs further service costs

    note that deprecation on the BMW will not be zero , it will have a value

    the apples and oranges is from the fact that you are comparing a nearly new car ( 2014) which a 15 year old one

    the correct answer is that the savings on a EV is so high that its actually able to fund its purchase from its savings in running costs compared to your previous car

    In this case essentially you are getting a FREE 2014 model car and still pitting some change in your pocket

    looks good to me


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    #16
    cros13
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭cros13


    I've had two 2014 Leafs between each of these sets of cars but I thought I'd compare my last ICEs to my current EVs (I adjusted the tax rates but fuel is based on fuel card invoices).

    Previous car: 141 Toyota Avensis
    Annual fuel cost: €7000
    Tax: €200
    Insurance: €1080
    Maintenance + tyres: €1500
    Total: €9780

    EV: 151 i3 REx
    Annual fuel cost: €280
    Tax: €170
    Insurance: €700
    Maintenance + tyres: €400
    Total: €1550

    Savings: €8230/annum

    Previous car: 141 Toyota Avensis
    Annual fuel cost: €2500
    Tax: €200
    Insurance: €510
    Maintenance + tyres: €800
    Total: €4010

    EV: 161 Leaf 30kWh
    Annual fuel cost: €280
    Tax: €120
    Insurance: €375
    Maintenance + tyres: €150
    Total: €925

    Savings: €3085/annum

    I've left out depreciation for a number of reasons.
    1. It's hard to calculate as future values when selling could be way off historical.
    2. My i3 is a max specced BMW, day 1 depreciation is not comparable to an Avensis.
    3. I don't consider cars to be an asset, just toys with a high capital cost. At least in my mind, I write off the capital cost the day I make the bank transfer.


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    #17
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    cros13 wrote: »
    I've had two 2014 Leafs between each of these sets of cars but I thought I'd compare my last ICEs to my current EVs (I adjusted the tax rates but fuel is based on fuel card invoices).

    Previous car: 141 Toyota Avensis
    Annual fuel cost: €7000
    Tax: €200
    Insurance: €1080
    Maintenance + tyres: €1500
    Total: €9780

    EV: 151 i3 REx
    Annual fuel cost: €280
    Tax: €170
    Insurance: €700
    Maintenance + tyres: €400
    Total: €1550

    Savings: €8230/annum

    Previous car: 141 Toyota Avensis
    Annual fuel cost: €2500
    Tax: €200
    Insurance: €510
    Maintenance + tyres: €800
    Total: €4010

    EV: 161 Leaf 30kWh
    Annual fuel cost: €280
    Tax: €120
    Insurance: €375
    Maintenance + tyres: €150
    Total: €925

    Savings: €3085/annum

    I've left out depreciation for a number of reasons.
    1. It's hard to calculate as future values when selling could be way off historical.
    2. My i3 is a max specced BMW, day 1 depreciation is not comparable to an Avensis.
    3. I don't consider cars to be an asset, just toys with a high capital cost. At least in my mind, I write off the capital cost the day I make the bank transfer.

    Thats an unusual way of looking at your figures. For a new or nearly new car by far the largest cost is depreciation. Ignoring it really is just deceiving yourself.

    The only thing that could be classed as unfair in the comparison above is the avensis is a D segment car while both the leaf (B) and i3 are small city cars (A).


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    #18
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    unkel wrote: »
    Previous car: '03 Jaguar S-type
    Annual fuel cost: €2500
    Tax: €1700
    Insurance: €550
    Depreciation: €0
    Maintenance + tyres: €500
    Total: €5250

    EV: Ioniq
    Annual fuel cost: €20
    Tax: €120
    Insurance: €400
    Depreciation: €2500
    Maintenance + tyres: €200
    Total: €3240
    How did you come up with that number Unkel? I'd have said the car would have depreciated by that much the second you signed the papers, let alone drive it out the gate. I know you got a great deal but even still, the industry standard 50% over three years would give an annualised depreciation of close to twice that.


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    #19
    cros13
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭cros13


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    Thats an unusual way of looking at your figures. For a new or nearly new car by far the largest cost is depreciation. Ignoring it really is just deceiving yourself.

    In the case of the i3 I'm ignoring it for good reason. An i3 specced to €62k from a base of €33k is naturally going to depreciate in a way that is unrepresentative of EVs in general and not useful to compare with an Avensis that cost me €24k new. In the case of the 141 Leaf it actually beat the Avensis in terms of depreciation (based on what I bought it for and traded it in for) and I'm expecting the 161 to do the same. But the EV market is somewhat volatile, with some EVs in some markets we've seen appreciation rather than depreciation as the EV market expanded.
    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    The only thing that could be classed as unfair in the comparison above is the avensis is a D segment car while both the leaf (B) and i3 are small city cars (A).

    Both the Leaf and the i3 are unusual in their segments, in common with most purpose built EVs they have unusually large interior space for the segment. The i3 for example despite being less than 4 meters long has more interior passenger space than both the Avensis and 3-series.

    Even the Leaf has an interior passenger volume larger than the Avensis:

    Avensis front/rear headroom: 930mm/910mm
    Leaf front/rear headroom: 1050mm/960mm

    Avensis front/rear legroom: 1080mm/710mm
    Leaf front/rear legroom: 1070mm/790mm

    The Leaf's boot is about 100L smaller but the total interior volume of the Leaf is about 300L above the Avensis.
    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    How did you come up with that number Unkel? I'd have said the car would have depreciated by that much the second you signed the papers, let alone drive it out the gate. I know you got a great deal but even still, the industry standard 50% over three years would give an annualised depreciation of close to twice that.

    Well technically the good deal he got, the UK/Irish pricing gap for the EV and the supply issues with the Ioniq meant he could have driven it to the UK the day he bought it and sold it for a non-trivial profit.


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    #20
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,130 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    How did you come up with that number Unkel? I'd have said the car would have depreciated by that much the second you signed the papers, let alone drive it out the gate. I know you got a great deal but even still, the industry standard 50% over three years would give an annualised depreciation of close to twice that.


    Indeed. It is based on my own situation where I plan to keep the car until it is worth very little. Say it depreciates from €25k to €5k in 8 years time, so €2,500 per year

    Obviously if I only kept the car for 3 years, you'd be looking at €25k - €12.5k / 3 = over €4k per year depreciation. And worse again if you keep it for less than 3 years.


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    #21
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,130 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    cros13 wrote: »
    Even the Leaf has an interior passenger volume larger than the Avensis:

    Avensis front/rear headroom: 930mm/910mm
    Leaf front/rear headroom: 1050mm/960mm

    All that air above your head is really useful :p

    All those cars are fine for 4 people. But if you have 3 kids (no matter what age), both Leaf and i3 are useless.


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    #22
    cros13
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭cros13


    unkel wrote: »
    All that air above your head is really useful :p

    All those cars are fine for 4 people. But if you have 3 kids (no matter what age), both Leaf and i3 are useless.

    I agree, certainly in the case of the i3, I've always called it a car for the DINKy set (Dual Incomes, No Kids)

    Two kids with either the Leaf or the Avensis would be fine but with three I wouldn't have either. The i3 has space for four adults but the doors would be a pain with kids.


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    #23
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,107 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    All those cars are fine for 4 people. But if you have 3 kids (no matter what age), both Leaf and i3 are useless.

    I've no issue with 3 kids in the Leaf and that includes a booster.... unless you've very big kids! :)


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    #24
    BionicRasher
    Registered Users Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭BionicRasher


    unkel wrote: »
    Previous car: '03 Jaguar S-type
    Annual fuel cost: €2500


    EV: Ioniq
    Annual fuel cost: €20

    Is the Ioniq only costing you a couple of quid a month to run?
    What milage do you do?


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    #25
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,211 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Public charge which is free ATM. He's a scrounger on the state. We all are paying.


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    #26
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    cros13 wrote: »
    In the case of the i3 I'm ignoring it for good reason. An i3 specced to €62k from a base of €33k is naturally going to depreciate in a way that is unrepresentative of EVs in general and not useful to compare with an Avensis that cost me €24k new. In the case of the 141 Leaf it actually beat the Avensis in terms of depreciation (based on what I bought it for and traded it in for) and I'm expecting the 161 to do the same. But the EV market is somewhat volatile, with some EVs in some markets we've seen appreciation rather than depreciation as the EV market expanded.



    Both the Leaf and the i3 are unusual in their segments, in common with most purpose built EVs they have unusually large interior space for the segment. The i3 for example despite being less than 4 meters long has more interior passenger space than both the Avensis and 3-series.

    Even the Leaf has an interior passenger volume larger than the Avensis:

    Avensis front/rear headroom: 930mm/910mm
    Leaf front/rear headroom: 1050mm/960mm

    Avensis front/rear legroom: 1080mm/710mm
    Leaf front/rear legroom: 1070mm/790mm

    The Leaf's boot is about 100L smaller but the total interior volume of the Leaf is about 300L above the Avensis.
    Three in the back of the i3 is a tighter squeeze than the avensis tbf. Its hard to justify your statement though that you are making savings when the i3 is losing about €10k/year in depreciation. Yes it's a different level of luxury but it isn't costing you less.

    The takeaway point though at the moment is that the cheapest form of motoring is still bangernomics, and will remain that way for a little while longer, a year or two at least.


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    #27
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,211 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Of course bangernomics wins. Then that choice carries a whole lot of other costs and risks.
    You are more likely to breakdown. Spend time off the road whilst sourcing a part. The wrong part comes, another few days, etc.

    The exercise of comparison is for some one buying a new or down to 4 year old car.
    If you are buying new any way. The depreciation is equal and so no diff.


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    #28
    cros13
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭cros13


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    Three in the back of the i3 is a tighter squeeze than the avensis tbf. Its hard to justify your statement though that you are making savings when the i3 is losing about €10k/year in depreciation. Yes it's a different level of luxury but it isn't costing you less.

    That wasn't the point for me. The low running costs allowed me to justify the higher priced vehicle. Someone buying a base i3 would see much lower depreciation and identical (actually slightly better... lower kWh/100km and lower road tax than a REx, probably lower insurance too) savings.

    But the Leaf definitely offers substantial savings with a lower retail price than it's peers, much lower running costs and depreciation has been fairly similar to the avensis... a little better even.


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    #29
    goz83
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    unkel wrote: »
    All that air above your head is really useful :p

    All those cars are fine for 4 people. But if you have 3 kids (no matter what age), both Leaf and i3 are useless.

    Would strongly disagree with you there Unkel. The wife very often has 4 kids in the Leaf, including a baby seat and a booster seat. No issues with space. She drove North Dublin to Brittas bay last week with 4 kids.

    A couple of weeks ago, the two of us drove to Belfast and had 3 of the kids, including the baby and my eldest (14). Again, no issues with space.

    I can't speak for the i3, but the leaf is certainly large enough.


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    #30
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,130 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    BionicRasher wrote: »
    Is the Ioniq only costing you a couple of quid a month to run?
    What milage do you do?

    Pretty much. My local FCP is just around the corner from me. Beside my favourite takeaway, a McDonalds, a Starbucks, the library, supermarket etc. I pass there several times a day. If I'm low on battery and there is no one else charging, I'll top up (while doing a 20 minute shop or order & eat a takeaway). Which currently is free, but at some point we will have to pay for it

    I was there this evening, but there were two Leafs (one waiting, one charging), so I didn't charge myself


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    #31
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,130 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    goz83 wrote: »
    Would strongly disagree with you there Unkel.
    KCross wrote: »
    I've no issue with 3 kids in the Leaf and that includes a booster.... unless you've very big kids! :)

    I'll admit I never actually tried with my 3 kids in the back of a Leaf, so apologies for my statement which was a bit blunt

    But it looks a lot narrower than an Ioniq! My kids will soon all be teenagers. Maybe it looked that way because we are used to large family cars (BMW 5-series, Jaguar S-Type, Saab 9-5, etc)


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