EV cost savings

bmwguy

Lads you can't count finance repayments as a cost. It's not a cost it's an outward cash flow.

In this outward cash flow there are 2 elements, the part that is buying you equity in the car each month and the part that is covering depreciation.

Example:

Car costs 25k and payments are 500 for 50 months.
At the end of 50 months the car is worth 12.5k because of depreciation.
You have paid 25k and you then sell the car for
12.5k
How much did it cost you overall ? Is it more accurate and logical to say it cost you 25k or 12.5k ?

Even though you were paying out 500 a month, you had equity of half that.

So the real cost was 250 a month, which is the depreciation rate

So, depreciation is a cost, your full loan repayment is not. Yes, it comes out of your available cash flow but that's not a cost.

It's part of the reason pcp are popular because people confuse cash flow with actual cost.

oppenheimer1

bmwguy wrote: »

Lads you can't count finance repayments as a cost. It's not a cost it's an outward cash flow.

In this outward cash flow there are 2 elements, the part that is buying you equity in the car each month and the part that is covering depreciation.

Example:

Car costs 25k and payments are 500 for 50 months.
At the end of 50 months the car is worth 12.5k because of depreciation.
You have paid 25k and you then sell the car for
12.5k
How much did it cost you overall ? Is it more accurate and logical to say it cost you 25k or 12.5k ?

Even though you were paying out 500 a month, you had equity of half that.

So the real cost was 250 a month, which is the depreciation rate

So, depreciation is a cost, your full loan repayment is not. Yes, it comes out of your available cash flow but that's not a cost.

It's part of the reason pcp are popular because people confuse cash flow with actual cost.

As Unkel correctly pointed out the cost is the depreciation + the cost of credit

unkel

And the opportunity costs of money

bmwguy

unkel wrote: »

And the opportunity costs of money

I suppose that's correct too!
But let's not go there. I think electric vehicles make very good sense over an ICE if you are buying anyway. Trading up just to cut costs is usually a false economy. But electric is the future, and the near future, that much is definite in my mind now

grogi

bmwguy wrote: »

I suppose that's correct too!
But let's not go there. I think electric vehicles make very good sense over an ICE if you are buying anyway. Trading up just to cut costs is usually a false economy. But electric is the future, and the near future, that much is definite in my mind now

My calculations suggest that once you make more than 5000 km a year, a used Leaf is more economical (depreciation included) than a ~2k banger.

unkel

I haven't done the sums but I was going to suggest the same. And a banger with a small engine at that.

bmwguy

grogi wrote: »

My calculations suggest that once you make more than 5000 km a year, a used Leaf is more economical (depreciation included) than a ~2k banger.

How used? 3 to 5 years? And what type of banger? 10+ year old 2 litre or small car?
Genuinely interested.
I fully agree electric is the near future.

unkel

Very rough:

5k Leaf VS 1k banger 1.6l petrol
tax 120 514
Ins 400 600
fuel (5k km) 100 500
Maint 100 200
Tyres 120 80
NCT 18 83
Depr (3 yr) 357 333
opp cost 250 50

total / yr 1465 2360

Assumptions:

'11 Leaf, will have NCT until '19. Banger will probably fail yearly NCT first before passing. Minimal maintenance on banger (own oil changes, etc.)
Keep both for 3 years. Banger will be worthless, Leaf will be worth 2.5k
Banger can get cheap part worn tyres, Leaf bit more expensive. Insurance generally comes down for people switching to EV. Opportunity costs set at 5%. If you have money in your account doing nothing for you, make these amounts zero

Summary: there really isn't any cheaper motoring than a very cheap Leaf. And that's at a very low 5k / year. The more you drive, the cheaper a Leaf will be. Even if you swap the €1k 1.6 banger for a €500 1l Micra, the Micra is not going to be cheaper than the Leaf

grogi

unkel wrote: »

Very rough:

5k Leaf VS 1k banger 1.6l petrol
tax 120 514
Ins 400 600
fuel (5k km) 100 500
Maint 100 200
Tyres 120 80
NCT 18 83
Depr (3 yr) 357 333
opp cost 250 50

total / yr 1465 2360

Your maintenance figures are very optimistic for me...

For a 2011 Leaf I'd put €400 a year towards maintenance - suspension, tyres, some brakes might need work. Equally a banger would require €600 yearly. I have also added €500 towards home charger installation.

Nevertheless, at 5000 km/year, the TCO of a €1000 1.6 banger matches a Leaf with a price of around €9000 - one should be able to get a nice late 2012/early 2013 for that.

And as stated before - the more one drives, the more attractive option a Leaf is.

goz83

grogi wrote: »

Your maintenance figures are very optimistic for me...

For a 2011 Leaf I'd put €400 a year towards maintenance - suspension, tyres, some brakes might need work. Equally a banger would require €600 yearly. I have also added €500 towards home charger installation.

Nevertheless, at 5000 km/year, the TCO of a €1000 1.6 banger matches a Leaf with a price of around €9000 - one should be able to get a nice late 2012/early 2013 for that.

And as stated before - the more one drives, the more attractive option a Leaf is.

If tyres are needed for both cars, that maintenance figure is about right, so no issue there. The home charger is not a necessity, so is not a cost to consider. You will also get a 2011 leaf for much less than 9k. There is one for 4k on done deal at the moment. Another recently went for just over 5k a couple of weeks ago and then a month ago, I bought a 2012 for 5k.

unkel

grogi wrote: »

Your maintenance figures are very optimistic for me...

For a 2011 Leaf I'd put €400 a year towards maintenance - suspension, tyres, some brakes might need work. Equally a banger would require €600 yearly.

Tyres are separate already. Leaf maintenance I put extremely low as the cheapest Leafs around are '11 with a newish NCT, so not needing any suspension work. And with the regen, an EV needs very little spending on the brakes.

I've owned reliable bangernomics that I never spent more than oil + filter on. Cheaper to buy a good one and hope for the best rather than having to spend €600 yearly doing timing belts, suspension work etc. I something breaks, feck it out and buy another

But we can argue about the figures until the end of time, my point was that even at a very low mileage, even when you DO take into account the opportunity costs of money, it is still cheaper to own an old Leaf compared to any other similar size car. And the cheapest car to own of all cars, something like a 1l €400 Micra, comes in about the same TCO as the Leaf

iguana

First time posting here. I'd love to get an EV and probably will within the next few years for environmental reasons. But I'm really not sure if it would work out cheaper. Currently my costs are fairly minimal on a car that I use all the time.

Car: 2002 Corsa 1ltr
Monthly fuel cost: €110 (I drive it all the time but it's really, really economical for an ICE.)
Tax: €16.50/month (199p.a.)
Insurance: €100/month (1200p.a.) (1 year ncb, full licence 1 month)
Depreciation: €0
Loan Repayments: €0
Maintenance roughly €10pm as my dad fixes everything and is great at sourcing parts.

Total cost €226.50 pm, and I get to keep my savings.

grogi

iguana wrote: »

First time posting here. I'd love to get an EV and probably will within the next few years for environmental reasons. But I'm really not sure if it would work out cheaper. Currently my costs are fairly minimal on a car that I use all the time.

Car: 2002 Corsa 1ltr
Monthly fuel cost: €110 (I drive it all the time but it's really, really economical for an ICE.)
Tax: €16.50/month (199p.a.)
Insurance: €100/month (1200p.a.) (1 year ncb, full licence 1 month)
Depreciation: €0
Loan Repayments: €0
Maintenance roughly €10pm as my dad fixes everything and is great at sourcing parts.

Total cost €226.50 pm, and I get to keep my savings.

If you're spending €1300 yearly on fuel, you're making around 16000km a year - right?

I simply refuse to accept the €10/month for maintenance. NCT alone is €5 per month. A basic oil service (oil, oil filter, air filter, wipers) will cost you €60 (another €5 a month) if you do everything yourself. Where is the rest of standard service items like tyres (approximately €50/year), brakes (€40/2 years for pads plus €100/5 years for discs => €40/year), spark plugs, brake fluid? Any repairs?

Anyway, a leaf will be cheaper on fuel (around €90 of saving a month) and tax (€10 of savings). And on maintenance - I would say it will cost €200 less a year. Depreciation will be around the same - around €1000/year...

So it would cost you the same - but you will be driving a much safer and pleasant car...

goz83

Let us not ignire the fact that the Corsa is now 15 years old and you're basically stuck with your insurer who can charge you whatever they like come next renewal. And it will be higher. Other insurers won't want to quote you. It's a flying joke.

Driving a Leaf will cost you less and will be a much nicer drive. The initial cost of ourchase will of course be real cost, but this is true if you are upgrading to any newer car.

iguana

goz83 wrote: »

Let us not ignire the fact that the Corsa is now 15 years old and you're basically stuck with your insurer who can charge you whatever they like come next renewal. And it will be higher. Other insurers won't want to quote you. It's a flying joke.

I only just renewed my insurance 3 weeks ago and it was under €1200 for the most expensive package. Way cheaper than expected and certainly not something that financially justifies an initial outlay of maybe €8k.

Water John

Iguana, your dad is covering the maintenance, great bonus. Keep the car until its no longer reliable or can't insure it. Even better EVs and wider choice in a couple of years.
Your dad will then have to undergo reskilling, ha.

goz83

iguana wrote: »

I only just renewed my insurance 3 weeks ago and it was under €1200 for the most expensive package. Way cheaper than expected and certainly not something that financially justifies an initial outlay of maybe €8k.

Yes, but come renewal time, the car is over 15 years old. It's hard to get quotes on a 10 year old car. Once they hit 15, it's a nightmare, because it's old, nit classic. Funny enough, I was in Homebase last week and the woman behind the counter (late 40s) was saying to another customer that she just bought a 2002 Corsa and couldn't get it insured. Her own insurance company had priced her out on a change of vehicle.

Also a Leaf can be got for around 5k at the moment. There's been a few examples and I bought one of them. There is one for 4k at the moment,

I agree that the outlay vs your current costs it doesn't make financial sense in the short term. But when the outlay is earned back in 3 years with a car that is a decade newer and much safer, it's difficult to argue against that logic.

It really makes sense if you were thinking of changing the car anyway....and you might find that next renewal, you may well consider such a change. In the mean time, if you're happy with your motor, stick with it. But you did say that you would be considering EV for environmental reasons, so it's a cheap way to change and make your money back relatively quickly the way I suggested. After that, it's all savings.

iguana

grogi wrote: »

And on maintenance - I would say it will cost €200 less a year. Depreciation will be around the same - around €1000/year...

So it would cost you the same - but you will be driving a much safer and pleasant car...

I know exactly what I've spent on my car since I've bought it and it's nothing close to what you're estimating. My dad's a bit of a pack rat and 9 times out of 10,* if my car needs something, it's in his garage. And my car couldn't possibly be depreciating by €1000 a year as I paid less than that for it in the first place. As for the Leaf being safer, I've read in extended rear facing forums that people can't fit an ERF car seat in the middle seat so that's a massive drawback in terms of safety for a young child. As long as my son is under 25kg in weight, I'd never consider a car where I have to sit him any other way.

goz83 wrote: »

Yes, but come renewal time, the car is over 15 years old. It's hard to get quotes on a 10 year old car. Once they hit 15, it's a nightmare, because it's old, nit classic. Funny enough, I was in Homebase last week and the woman behind the counter (late 40s) was saying to another customer that she just bought a 2002 Corsa and couldn't get it insured. Her own insurance company had priced her out on a change of vehicle.

My car was already 15 year old 3 weeks ago and my insurance wasn't bad. Tbh, I was in shock when I got the renewal quote as I'd been expecting it to be much, much higher on such an old car. I actually did the application 3 times because I was sure I'd made a mistake somewhere in updating my details but I guess it's just a bonus of being old. I had literally just passed my test 4 days before and only have 1 year NCB, so I'm not convinced such a new driver would be paying all that much less in a better car.

I really do want an EV and don't want to come across as negative about them. But it's a fallacy that it's cheaper than a reliable old car with a small engine. Especially for someone who can maintain their car cheaply because with an electric car, I would have to pay consumer prices for parts and work. I will definitely get an EV in the next few years, as either my next car or the one after, which will largely depend on my son's car seat.

grogi

iguana wrote: »

I know exactly what I've spent on my car since I've bought it and it's nothing close to what you're estimating.

So it is even better time to move on - as those expenses are not going away. You WILL need tyres, brakes sooner or later.

My dad's a bit of a pack rat and 9 times out of 10,* if my car needs something, it's in his garage.

Well - you might not be paying for it, but your dad is then.

And my car couldn't possibly be depreciating by €1000 a year as I paid less than that for it in the first place.

That's the depreciation figure for Leaf. Depreciation for your car is negligible and skipped for this calculation.

I meant that depreciation of leaf will balance with the tax and fuel savings.

I've read in extended rear facing forums that people can't fit an ERF car seat in the middle seat so that's a massive drawback in terms of safety for a young child. As long as my son is under 25kg in weight, I'd never consider a car where I have to sit him any other way.

And you can do that in 2002 Corsa?!

To fit a ERF seat in the middle and keep the front and side seats fully usable, you need a mid-size MPV (like S-Max) or something like a Skoda Superb. If that's your priority - fine - but don't talk about running costs then, as they will be astronomical compared to what you're used to.

NewApproach

You can't compare a Jag S type to a Nissan ****ing Leaf for Christ sake.

Someone compare a tesla model S with 535d there thanks

iguana

grogi wrote: »

And you can do that in 2002 Corsa?!

To fit a ERF seat in the middle and keep the front and side seats fully usable, you need a mid-size MPV (like S-Max) or something like a Skoda Superb. If that's your priority - fine - but don't talk about running costs then, as they will be astronomical compared to what you're used to.

Yup, I do that in an 02 Corsa. It's the biggest car with a 1ltr engine. My son fits rear facing in the middle and the shape of the Minikid means that being in the middle allows more space for the front passenger and the two side rear seats are fully useable. Hard as it is to believe, I've driven with 3 adult passengers and my son rear facing in the middle. I'm titchy though, so that helps make it possible.

goz83

iguana wrote: »

Yup, I do that in an 02 Corsa. It's the biggest car with a 1ltr engine. My son fits rear facing in the middle and the shape of the Minikid means that being in the middle allows more space for the front passenger and the two side rear seats are fully useable. Hard as it is to believe, I've driven with 3 adult passengers and my son rear facing in the middle. I'm titchy though, so that helps make it possible.

I've got more kids than I can fit in a 5 seater car. Anyway, I prefer the child seat on either side, not in the middle as it has been proven to be much safer, but aside from that, it's also much easier to get my 1 year old in/out of the car, as I don't have to kneel into the car to access the middle seat. Not good for your back doing that. Also I am 6ft tall and I like plenty of leg roof. When the baby is behind the passenger seat and I am a front seat passenger, I have lots of space....same goes for the other Leaf, where the seat has been behind the drivers seat, I also have lots of room. There is plenty of room for the baby seat and two boosters, or two baby seats and a booster seat. It's surprisingly big...apparently 200 more litres in the cabin than an Avensis.

When you do change your car, be sure to test drive a Leaf. You will love it. I'm a fan of the old Corsas, but it would be too small for me, whether it was ICE or EV. The Leaf surprised the hell out of me. I thought it was tiny until I drove it.

grogi

iguana wrote: »

Yup, I do that in an 02 Corsa. It's the biggest car with a 1ltr engine. My son fits rear facing in the middle and the shape of the Minikid means that being in the middle allows more space for the front passenger and the two side rear seats are fully useable. Hard as it is to believe, I've driven with 3 adult passengers and my son rear facing in the middle. I'm titchy though, so that helps make it possible.

Excellent. Keep driving it - because it seems like it suits your needs while being as cheap as a car really can be.

iguana

goz83 wrote: »

I've got more kids than I can fit in a 5 seater car. Anyway, I prefer the child seat on either side, not in the middle as it has been proven to be much safer, but aside from that, it's also much easier to get my 1 year old in/out of the car, as I don't have to kneel into the car to access the middle seat. Not good for your back doing that. Also I am 6ft tall and I like plenty of leg roof. When the baby is behind the passenger seat and I am a front seat passenger, I have lots of space....same goes for the other Leaf, where the seat has been behind the drivers seat, I also have lots of room. There is plenty of room for the baby seat and two boosters, or two baby seats and a booster seat. It's surprisingly big...apparently 200 more litres in the cabin than an Avensis.

When you do change your car, be sure to test drive a Leaf. You will love it. I'm a fan of the old Corsas, but it would be too small for me, whether it was ICE or EV. The Leaf surprised the hell out of me. I thought it was tiny until I drove it.

Where did you read that the side seats are safer? For a child in a car seat the middle seat is 43% safer than behind the rear passenger and safer again than behind the driver. I've never read anything to suggest otherwise. I don't think that's it's the size of the car that makes the Leaf incompatible with my son's car seat but the placement of the battery. The leg on an ERF seat would be placed over the battery and that's not recommended.

I am absolutely going to get an EV in the nearish future. If my car can somehow last another 3 years or so, I'll be getting a Leaf as my next car. If not I'll probably get a slightly newer Corsa next and an EV as my third car. I only started driving at 37 and got my licence last month at 38. I'm surprised at the fact that I actually enjoy driving and love the freedom that I never knew I didn't have. But I'll be a lot happier when I'm not using fossil fuels so much. If it seems at all practical, I'm also considering installing a solar array with a view to it balancing out my increased electricity use, though I don't know how realistic that is. (I'll still have to run a petrol mower to take care of the wilderness that is my back garden though. Though hopefully the food I grow will help offset that.)

I'm just not sure how much if any money running an EV will save me when running my car costs so little. Though it's obvious that for anyone with a newer/bigger car an buying an EV is a big money saver.

KCross

iguana wrote: »

(I'll still have to run a petrol mower to take care of the wilderness that is my back garden though.

No need for those petrol mower thingys!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057213541

Gumbo

Don't forget the background savings guys.
I find, since I bought the EV, that all our weekend driving is done in my car as opposed to her E60. So there's small savings on her fuel bill also.

With my work charging, and 10 minute top ups while out and about I think I've charged my car once since I bought it at home (2nd March).

ELM327

goz83 wrote: »

Would strongly disagree with you there Unkel. The wife very often has 4 kids in the Leaf, including a baby seat and a booster seat. No issues with space. She drove North Dublin to Brittas bay last week with 4 kids.

A couple of weeks ago, the two of us drove to Belfast and had 3 of the kids, including the baby and my eldest (14). Again, no issues with space.

I can't speak for the i3, but the leaf is certainly large enough.

You'd fit 4 kids in a leaf only if you have no second adult and either (a) only 1 of the children is in a child seat or (b) there are 2 child seats in the back and the third child in the middle is slender built.

As a leaf owner whose leaf spends most of its time with 2 child seats in the back, trust me, you don't want to try and fit in to the middle!

goz83

ELM327 wrote: »

You'd fit 4 kids in a leaf only if you have no second adult and either (a) only 1 of the children is in a child seat or (b) there are 2 child seats in the back and the third child in the middle is slender built.

As a leaf owner whose leaf spends most of its time with 2 child seats in the back, trust me, you don't want to try and fit in to the middle!

As there are only 5 seats and the same number of seatbelts, I won't argue with the first line of text. But I can testify to having 2 adults in the front, a baby seat and 2 base boosters in the rear. Clipping the buckle under the second booster was awkward, but I managed. This only works with kids who are not on the chubby side. Space in the Leaf is generous, but has its limits.

A baby seat, booster seat and adult also fit in the back.

ELM327

goz83 wrote: »

As there are only 5 seats and the same number of seatbelts, I won't argue with the first line of text. But I can testify to having 2 adults in the front, a baby seat and 2 base boosters in the rear. Clipping the buckle under the second booster was awkward, but I managed. This only works with kids who are not on the chubby side. Space in the Leaf is generous, but has its limits.

A baby seat, booster seat and adult also fit in the back.

Not doubting you for a second but we had two full size child seats in the back and could not fit a slight adult into the middle.

I must try it later, move one child seat to the middle and see what's left over.

Gumbo

Ive a booster seat in the rear of mine for the 6 year old, and baby seat for the 2 year old and I can get someone in the middle. its a tight fit now in fairness, but it can be done easily.