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Break it, buy it?

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    #152
    Jeniflan
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭Jeniflan


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    So basically:

    Child broke something.
    Someone saw, and asked me to pay for it.
    At the till, they didn't press the matter, but appealed to your morals.
    Scene caused.
    Staff let you go, because hassle.

    Oh, and irishfreeview, you don't know the staff member. Maybe the till monkey WAS the manager. To straight away jump to "Theft, 100%, hang the ****er!" is a much.

    Basically, not quite.

    Child broke something.
    I went and told the shop assistant and showed her the item.
    They didn't press the matter from the start. I was immediately told that they'd like me to pay half, but it was up to me.
    I went to the till and paid half.
    When she told me she'd return it to supplier as faulty, I questioned it.
    No scene.
    She gave me back and money and barked she didn't have time to deal with it.


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    #153
    Melendez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,645 ✭✭✭Melendez


    This post has been deleted.


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    #154
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    Sadb wrote: »
    Nope haven't been sued yet in the 20 odd years I've been running this shop.
    Do you honestly believe that breaking/damaging someone else's property is not protected by the law. Maybe you need to go and sit in a court house for a day.

    You can't detain anyone that wants to leave the shop. Even if they haven't paid for the whole shopping trolley full of stuff.

    If the person WAS negligent in handling the item, then you can get them to pay, but not the whole amount, just cost of replacement. But if they refuse, there really isn't a whole lot to do, bar take them to small claims. And is it worth it?


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    #155
    Bandana boy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,325 ✭✭✭Bandana boy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I can promise you no large retailer allows sales assistants to discount.

    Of course when i say large retailer i mean those with over 100 stores nationwide turning over millions each year.

    Your definition of large is ridiculous ,I get you have one experience , but it is by no means the only experience .

    List of retailers with over 100 stores is only Tesco and Dunnes.
    The Supervalues , centras , Spars etc are all franchises with their own rules in place at each store.

    Stock control can and is managed very differently in different shops
    I know for example that there are stock takes by category done every week in some retailers , and no large stock take done at all.

    You saying that Dixons/Currys are not large ?
    Arnotts is not large , Brown Thomas is not large ,etc etc etc
    They are a small sample of many many large retailers that all allow Sale assistants to discount and would certainly be considered large

    Anyhoo at OP
    Different products are treated differently , for example most alcohol suppliers will replace products broken with an intact/unbroken seal.

    I would expect to pay for an item if broken but not full price as margin and Vat will not be collected , 50% seems fair , that said if buying other items a good sales person will balance the repeat custom etc against 5 Euro recovered costs.


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    #156
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭AlanG


    Sadb wrote: »
    Nope haven't been sued yet in the 20 odd years I've been running this shop.
    Do you honestly believe that breaking/damaging someone else's property is not protected by the law. Maybe you need to go and sit in a court house for a day.


    Has there ever been a case under Irish law of any person being held legally responsible for the damage caused by a three year old? You would be sitting a lot of days in court waiting for that case to come up.


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    #157
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Bandana boy wrote: »
    Your definition of large is ridiculous ,I get you have one experience , but it is by no means the only experience .

    List of retailers with over 100 stores is only Tesco and Dunnes.
    The Supervalues , centras , Spars etc are all franchises with their own rules in place at each store.

    Stock control can and is managed very differently in different shops
    I know for example that there are stock takes by category done every week in some retailers , and no large stock take done at all.

    You saying that Dixons/Currys are not large ?
    Arnotts is not large , Brown Thomas is not large ,etc etc etc
    They are a small sample of many many large retailers that all allow Sale assistants to discount and would certainly be considered large

    Anyhoo at OP
    Different products are treated differently , for example most alcohol suppliers will replace products broken with an intact/unbroken seal.

    I would expect to pay for an item if broken but not full price as margin and Vat will not be collected , 50% seems fair , that said if buying other items a good sales person will balance the repeat custom etc against 5 Euro recovered costs.

    Large retailers are generally called large when you consider turnover and profit.

    Is Brown Thomas larger than Dunnes? No, they operate 4 stores and their profit margin does not even come close to the likes of Dunnes, however they are woned by Galeon Weston who also owns Arnotts through Selfridges.

    Arnotts are owned and operated by Selfridges who in turn are owned by Galen Weston. So yes they are considered large.

    Currys/Dixons operate over 300 stores in the UK and Ireland, so yes they are large.

    Franchises of Supervalu and Spar and still just small independent stores and yes they can make up their own rules as the owner see fits when it comes to discounting products.


    For you information.

    GALEN WESTON's business interests are vast and lucrative.
    As the executive chairman of George Weston, he heads up one of North America's largest food processing and distribution groups.
    Its subsidiaries include Canadian supermarket chain Loblaw, which has just announced it will spin off its real estate holdings to form one of the country's biggest property investment trusts.

    The Weston family also controls Selfridges Group, whose department store brands include Ogilvys and Holt Renfrew in Canada, Brown Thomas in Ireland, the eponymous Selfridges in the UK and de Bijenkorf in the Netherlands.
    They also have a large stake in Associated British Foods, the company behind Penneys and Primark.

    Their combined wealth is estimated at about $10.4bn (€7.59bn).

    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/who-is-galen-weston-the-brown-thomas-owner-chasing-control-of-arnotts-29817780.html


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    #158
    JJayoo
    Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭JJayoo


    Jeniflan wrote: »
    . As a result my two young children were really upset.

    No wonder they were upset, what child wouldn't be embarrassed by their mother acting that way.


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    #159
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    JJayoo wrote: »
    No wonder they were upset, what child wouldn't be embarrassed by their mother acting that way.

    How about stop attacking the OP and discuss the the topic of the OP.

    What we have established is;

    1. No store can force you to pay for broken goods.
    2. Most people would pay for a broken item in a small store.


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    #160
    MommySquish
    Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭MommySquish


    Thing is, most stores won't ask and if offered will refuse. I've very rarely been in this situation but have always offered and been refused.

    What it sounds like here, is the shop assistant was looking to make a few quid on the side. Honestly. Considering this was a 'large' well known shop, I'd be contacting head office to clarify their policy. At least then once and for all you know.


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    #161
    Sadb
    Registered Users Posts: 10,525 ✭✭✭✭Sadb


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    You can't detain anyone that wants to leave the shop. Even if they haven't paid for the whole shopping trolley full of stuff.

    If the person WAS negligent in handling the item, then you can get them to pay, but not the whole amount, just cost of replacement. But if they refuse, there really isn't a whole lot to do, bar take them to small claims. And is it worth it?

    I am well aware that people can't be detained, I did not say that I have ever detained anyone. The point being is that you are protected if someone else was negligent, you can take them to the small claims court if you wish. Being worth it or not is immaterial.


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    #162
    Jeniflan
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭Jeniflan


    JJayoo wrote: »
    No wonder they were upset, what child wouldn't be embarrassed by their mother acting that way.

    Acting what way...? I wasn't aggressive or disrespectful when I spoke to her in any way. What way do you assume I was acting? I asked some questions, if that's not ok i don't get it. We all supposed to just blindly accept everything we're told? Whether you think I was right or wrong is one thing, but surely it's within my rights to query something that I don't understand or feel is strange?

    Thanks for assuming the worst about me and my parenting though. Awesome.


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    #163
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    MommySquish wrote: »
    Thing is, most stores won't ask and if offered will refuse. I've very rarely been in this situation but have always offered and been refused.

    What it sounds like here, is the shop assistant was looking to make a few quid on the side. Honestly. Considering this was a 'large' well known shop, I'd be contacting head office to clarify their policy. At least then once and for all you know.

    So 2 members of staff were conspiring to steal a fiver?

    Or could it be that they were following the general practice of "break it, buy it" but when faced with "hassle" (I'm not saying it was out of the ordinary, but look at it from the workers point of view) gave her the money back, and didn't pursue it, because really, there is no way to win.


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    #164
    MommySquish
    Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭MommySquish


    ED E wrote:
    They've only existed as a name for a long time. Makes sense.

    Sofiztikated wrote:
    Or could it be that they were following the general practice of "break it, buy it" but when faced with "hassle" (I'm not saying it was out of the ordinary, but look at it from the workers point of view) gave her the money back, and didn't pursue it, because really, there is no way to win.


    Well, they could have been. Contact head office and ask. If its policy well and good. Send on the cash. If not, I'd like to see their employee handbook that says 'if the customer is a hassle, leave it off'. Besides, in this case, their employees are not following policy.

    If its not policy, which it sounds like, as the workers seemed unsure of themselves from the story, then they were trying to make a quick buck.

    I wasn't there, but it is absolutely not common practice of stores to ask clients for the money for damaged stock. I have worked in a fair few stores and it was ALWAYS eaten by the shop or the insurance depending on the price.


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    #165
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    So 2 members of staff were conspiring to steal a fiver?

    Or could it be that they were following the general practice of "break it, buy it" but when faced with "hassle" (I'm not saying it was out of the ordinary, but look at it from the workers point of view) gave her the money back, and didn't pursue it, because really, there is no way to win.

    2 Members of staff? The op said one member of staff.

    If that member of staff is happy to defraud customers what else are they doing, how much have the robbed off embarrassed customers in the past?

    This had red flags all over it, if I were the OP I would speak to store management and discover if it it policy or alert them to the possibility that a member of staff is defrauding customers and could be up to all sorts of wrongful behavior.


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    #166
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    Sadb wrote: »
    I am well aware that people can't be detained, I did not say that I have ever detained anyone. The point being is that you are protected if someone else was negligent, you can take them to the small claims court if you wish. Being worth it or not is immaterial.

    Being honest, I have been the person trying to get someone to pay for something they broke.

    But the moment they say, "Pay? Nah, mate, jog on," anything you do after that point that stops them leaving can be construed as detaining.

    Negligence would be down to the judge to decide. And when you get to that point, value of reimbursement would far outweigh cost of getting to that point.


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    #167
    Jeniflan
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭Jeniflan


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Being honest, I have been the person trying to get someone to pay for something they broke.

    But the moment they say, "Pay? Nah, mate, jog on," anything you do after that point that stops them leaving can be construed as detaining.

    Negligence would be down to the judge to decide. And when you get to that point, value of reimbursement would far outweigh cost of getting to that point.

    I know this is not in response to what I said- but just to be clear I never refused to pay, I gave her the money. Never said I'm not paying for that. She just didn't like being questioned on their policy it would seem and gave it back.


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    #168
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    2 Members of staff? The op said one member of staff.

    If that member of staff is happy to defraud customers what else are they doing, how much have the robbed off embarrassed customers in the past?

    This had red flags all over it, if I were the OP I would speak to store management and discover if it it policy or alert them to the possibility that a member of staff is defrauding customers and could be up to all sorts of wrongful behavior.

    Apologies, thought person at till was a different person to person alerted to breakage.

    I'd still put it down to there being no clear rules on it (obviously, or we wouldn't be here arguing about it,) rather than it being malicious.

    As OP mentioned a gift shop in Kilarney,, I'm assuming trinkets and handmade stuffs, possibly sold on behalf of someone, rather than shop bought stock, if you know what I mean?


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    #169
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    .. possibly sold on behalf of someone, rather than shop bought stock, if you know what I mean?

    A plastic beer mug? Really???


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    #170
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    Perfectly fine to go there.

    You're teaching your kids that it's fine to wreck other peoples stuff and brush it off with "whoops oh well"

    The vast majority of society holds this view in contempt.

    Also, you want to contact management.....to complain about how you were treated.....after you broke their stuff

    For goodness sake.

    She said she apologised profusely and made her son apologise.

    In anything other than a small independent retailer that should always be the end of it. As others have pointed out, if you have breakables on open display within reach of three year olds and you let three year olds into the shop, guess what is going to happen?

    The shop management made all those decisions and THEY are responsible for the result, which is why most retailers just consider breakages as part of the business.

    This ludicrous notion that the parent is solely responsible for anything the child does has no basis in law and no basis in common sense. The implication is that the parent must watch the child continuously, which would mean no possibility to actually shop.

    On that note there is an antique/tat shop in Carlingford (I am sure some know it) that has "consider it sold" signs everywhere and breakable items piled high on tables with ridiculously narrow aisles between them. I sometimes wonder if the bloke who owns it makes most of his revenue from duping people whose kids break stuff. It's almost like the place is set up for it.


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    #171
    mickoneill31
    Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭mickoneill31


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Apologies, thought person at till was a different person to person alerted to breakage.

    I'd still put it down to there being no clear rules on it (obviously, or we wouldn't be here arguing about it,) rather than it being malicious.

    As OP mentioned a gift shop in Kilarney,, I'm assuming trinkets and handmade stuffs, possibly sold on behalf of someone, rather than shop bought stock, if you know what I mean?

    As to the clear rules. I think a problem we have in Ireland is that we need rules for this kind of stuff. I would have been of the opinion that cop on would do but obviously a small percentage don't know to take responsibility for their (or their kids) actions.

    Most people wouldn't need it explained. I've broken stuff in a shop before. I offered to pay straight away, obviously hoping they'd decline. Which they can do but I didn't expect them to do.


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    #172
    Bandana boy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,325 ✭✭✭Bandana boy


    Deleted User wrote: »

    This ludicrous notion that the parent is solely responsible for anything the child does has no basis in law and no basis in common sense. The implication is that the parent must watch the child continuously, which would mean no possibility to actually shop..

    Nothing Ludicrous here , You either watch your child or educate them to behave correctly , if you have an unruly child that you cannot manage you should not bring this Bull into a china shop.

    It is attitudes like yours that has the country ruined with anti-social behavior. Parents not being liable for their children !!
    I would love if we took it further and charged parents for all the costs of their unruly children including any jail -social services etc till each child is 21.


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    #173
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    For goodness sake.

    In anything other than a small independent retailer that should always be the end of it.

    Is there a large gift store chain in this country? With a branch in killarney?


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    #174
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Bandana boy wrote: »
    Nothing Ludicrous here , You either watch your child or educate them to behave correctly , if you have an unruly child that you cannot manage you should not bring this Bull into a china shop.

    It is attitudes like yours that has the country ruined with anti-social behavior. Parents not being liable for their children !!
    I would love if we took it further and charged parents for all the costs of their unruly children including any jail -social services etc till each child is 21.

    Yep, I'm sure my attitudes have "the country ruined". My God what absolute nonsense. What on earth has any of this got to do with anti-social behaviour?

    I have three children, I don't believe any of them have ever broken anything in a shop and they've all been brought up to believe that "there's no such thing as an accident" - a phrase that gets gleefully thrown back at me if I spill a cup of tea btw.

    I suspect you have no children. If you did you would know that a three year old can only be reliably kept from handling items by physical restraint and/or constant monitoring. That means that the shop has to make a call - no small children in the shop, everything behind glass, or accept breakages. One of these options would work, they chose the last. It's not complicated.

    There's a reason why a retailer claiming for damages in this case would be laughed out of court.


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    #175
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    Deleted User wrote: »

    This ludicrous notion that the parent is solely responsible for anything the child does has no basis in law and no basis in common sense. The implication is that the parent must watch the child continuously, which would mean no possibility to actually shop.

    Who is responsible for the child then?
    mickoneill31 wrote: »
    As to the clear rules. I think a problem we have in Ireland is that we need rules for this kind of stuff. I would have been of the opinion that cop on would do but obviously a small percentage don't know to take responsibility for their (or their kids) actions.

    Most people wouldn't need it explained. I've broken stuff in a shop before. I offered to pay straight away, obviously hoping they'd decline. Which they can do but I didn't expect them to do.

    When it comes to business, clear rules are needed, so everyone knows where they stand.


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    #176
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,842 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Forget the child for a moment. A clumsy adult or doddery older person could just as easily break something by mistake. Some of these shops are merchandised like a flippin assault course, lots of breakables on overloaded prom islands with glass shelves.

    €10 plastic items are sold to the shop for about 2 quid. And they get returns on the stock if are doing any sort of volume. For ming vases and the like; if they arent insured, they ought to be.

    I would never pay for a breakage in a shop that was neither malicious nor criminal. And those, 'break it, bought it' signs aren't worth the plastic they are laminated with.


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    #177
    Sadb
    Registered Users Posts: 10,525 ✭✭✭✭Sadb


    AlanG wrote: »
    Has there ever been a case under Irish law of any person being held legally responsible for the damage caused by a three year old? You would be sitting a lot of days in court waiting for that case to come up.

    Yes, I personally know of a few involving windows and cars.


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    #178
    Bandana boy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,325 ✭✭✭Bandana boy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yep, I'm sure my attitudes have "the country ruined". My God what absolute nonsense. What on earth has any of this got to do with anti-social behaviour?

    It is attitudes like yours that are a direct line to the anti-social behaviour epidemic we have in the country right now.

    Not willing to bring your kids up correctly with discipline and not willing to deal with the consequences.
    Parents defending their children when Teachers try to discipline an unruly child , fighting other parents and Garda demanding proof of little Jonny being a vandal/thief . All lead to decent people suffering as "no-one can be liable for a child".


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    #179
    mikeybrennan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 869 ✭✭✭mikeybrennan


    At a maximum you would be reimbursing shopkeeper his cost price

    If it was a small business and the child was 100% at fault i would pay.

    Shops have a habit of placing items where they can get knocked over


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    #180
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    Years ago, I loaned my digital camera to a friend.
    She lost it on a night out
    She didn't offer to pay for it, or even half of it.
    I thought that was really scummy.
    If it were me, I'd have offered to pay her full price for the camera as it was my fault it was lost.
    But then again, I can't expect everyone to behave like I would........

    In this case, I believe that if you break something belonging to someone else, you offer to pay.
    If they say 'oh no, it's grand' you insist again.
    Without going all Mrs. Doyle, after that you can keep your money if they decline.
    But genuinely can't understand a mindset of 'accidents happen' and not offering to pay.

    If I run into the arse of someone in my car, can I just say 'accidents happen'?

    Where does the line end?


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    #181
    mikeybrennan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 869 ✭✭✭mikeybrennan


    Bandana boy wrote: »
    It is attitudes like yours that are a direct line to the anti-social behaviour epidemic we have in the country right now.

    Not willing to bring your kids up correctly with discipline and not willing to deal with the consequences.
    Parents defending their children when Teachers try to discipline an unruly child , fighting other parents and Garda demanding proof of little Jonny being a vandal/thief . All lead to decent people suffering as "no-one can be liable for a child".

    Not necessarily true

    Parents hear their child's side of the story and confront the other parent with a version of events.


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