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Stormont power sharing talks

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  • #182
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    If they don't have Ulster Scots with it then they won't be getting it. Pretty much as simple as that.

    Ulster Scotts isn't a language. It's quite simple.
    It doesn't matter what it is. Sinn Fein is NOT getting an Irish Language Act unless Ulster Scots is included. I am just giving the reality of it. Sinn Fein can cry and moan about it to the cows come home, it won't matter. You know this too.


  • #183
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    It doesn't matter what it is. Sinn Fein is NOT getting an Irish Language Act unless Ulster Scots is included. I am just giving the reality of it. Sinn Fein can cry and moan about it to the cows come home, it won't matter. You know this too.

    And there is the exact unionist mindset

    We know it's not a language

    But anything Irish can go smoke itself,
    If we can't have out little add on to take the piss out of it.....a 16th century mindset mascarading as a culture/political ideology


  • #184
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Red_Wake wrote: »
    I'm asking about the SF response - how would you describe it, and is it constructive to making inroads to a long term solution?

    If they're not doing the latter, they're guilty of kicking the can down the road as well. Would you agree or disagree?

    It isn't constructive to ignore the fact that the DUP and their voters woupd do anything to fight Irish culture in the North. Cutting funds to send special needs to gaeltacht schools while pouring money into the Orange Order. They haven't accepted Irish culture. They didn'teven want to sign up to the GFA.so yes, SF were right to end government. It wasn't conducive to parity of esteem to continue.
    Orange culture is Irish, so how is it against Irish culture when Orange culture has a lot of Irish symbolism.


  • #185
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    It doesn't matter what it is. Sinn Fein is NOT getting an Irish Language Act unless Ulster Scots is included. I am just giving the reality of it. Sinn Fein can cry and moan about it to the cows come home, it won't matter. You know this too.

    And there is the exact unionist mindset

    We know it's not a language

    But anything Irish can go smoke itself,
    If we can't have out little add on to take the piss out of it.....a 16th century mindset mascarading as a culture/political ideology
    The worst thing to ever have happened to the language is Sinn Fein. Good luck to Sinn Fein because if Irish Nationalists are gullible enough to believe them then fair play to them. The executive will only come back if the pay is stopped as that is what most of them only care about.


  • #186
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,116 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    The worst thing to ever have happened to the language is Sinn Fein.

    No that would be British colonialism.
    Good luck to Sinn Fein because if Irish Nationalists are gullible enough to believe them then fair play to them.

    The SDLP and Alliance are in favour of an ILA too, it's not just a SF demand. It's really telling that the Welsh and Scots have LA's yet Unionists in the north are determined to block one, how un-British of them.


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  • #187
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,116 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Dear blanch152, please be a good sport and address these questions.

    1. Why should anyone have any interest in respecting, or appeasing, any culture that is built on (long gone) supremacism and sectarianism?

    2. I'll tell you how we begin to reconcile, Unionists apologising for thier treatment of the minority and, you know, actually causing the troubles. How would that sit with Unionists?

    3. Would your bizarre prescription for reconciliation expect Black people in the US to reconcile with the Klan?

    4. Under the terms of the GFA a 50% +1 vote is all that's required for a UI, do you respect that agreement?

    Many thanks.


  • #188
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    Dear blanch152, please be a good sport and address these questions.

    1. Why should anyone have any interest in respecting, or appeasing, any culture that is built on (long gone) supremacism and sectarianism?


    As opposed to respecting or appeasing any culture being built on the basis of future 50% +1 supremacism and sectarianism?

    It is easy to make glib phrases like that about another's culture. It is much more difficult to respect the others culture and disregard the blatantly sectarian aspects (certain Wolfe Tones songs, Provisional IRA badges, Hunger Strike celebrations etc. which are disgusting sectarian parts of our own culture).

    Both sides in the North need to do more to respect the other side's culture. I set out a proposal in an earlier post about how SF could be magnanimous and reach across the divide without compromising on Irish culture. An alternative first step would be to ban the sale of sectarian material from their website.

    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    2. I'll tell you how we begin to reconcile, Unionists apologising for thier treatment of the minority and, you know, actually causing the troubles. How would that sit with Unionists?

    I don't recall Unionists putting guns to the heads of IRA bombers to force them to detonate the bombs. The causes of the Troubles are multifold but there is no doubt that there are many on the Nationalist side who bear huge responsibility as well as others on the Unionist side. In particular, those who carried on the fight after Sunningdale carry a large amount of blame.
    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    3. Would your bizarre prescription for reconciliation expect Black people in the US to reconcile with the Klan?

    No. Two very very different situations in two very very different societies.


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »

    4. Under the terms of the GFA a 50% +1 vote is all that's required for a UI, do you respect that agreement?

    Many thanks.


    Of course, I respect the GFA, but I don't think you can have a solid foundation for a united Ireland based on a 50% +1 vote. For a united Ireland to succeed peacefully, it would need an overwhelming vote of close to 70% demonstrating that many Unionists have been convinced and won over.

    Otherwise, there is a real risk that the South will reject it.


  • #189
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,116 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    blanch152 wrote: »
    As opposed to respecting or appeasing any culture being built on the basis of future 50% +1 supremacism and sectarianism?

    It is easy to make glib phrases like that about another's culture. It is much more difficult to respect the others culture and disregard the blatantly sectarian aspects (certain Wolfe Tones songs, Provisional IRA badges, Hunger Strike celebrations etc. which are disgusting sectarian parts of our own culture).

    Both sides in the North need to do more to respect the other side's culture. I set out a proposal in an earlier post about how SF could be magnanimous and reach across the divide without compromising on Irish culture. An alternative first step would be to ban the sale of sectarian material from their website.

    None of this answers the question posed, it's a rant of whataboutery and moral equivalence. I'll answer my own question. I, and I suspect many like me, have absolutely no intention of respecting a culture that that largely built on trying to disrespect me.
    The causes of the Troubles are multifold but there is no doubt that there are many on the Nationalist side who bear huge responsibility as well as others on the Unionist side.

    You're trying to 'balance the books'. There was systemic discrimination against the minority and the civil rights movement was met with brutality, the UVF were blowing things up and trying to blame it on Republicans long before the PIRA even formed. When are unionists going to apologise for creating the conditions for conflict?

    I'll answer that: 'NEVER, NEVER, NEVER'
    No. Two very very different situations in two very very different societies.

    Black people faced far worse treatment but the analogy stands. Nobody should be expected to love thine abuser.
    Of course, I respect the GFA, but...

    No buts. 50% +1.


  • #190
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    None of this answers the question posed, it's a rant of whataboutery and moral equivalence. I'll answer my own question. I, and I suspect many like me, have absolutely no intention of respecting a culture that that largely built on trying to disrespect me.



    You're trying to 'balance the books'. There was systemic discrimination against the minority and the civil rights movement was met with brutality, the UVF were blowing things up and trying to blame it on Republicans long before the PIRA even formed. When are unionists going to apologise for creating the conditions for conflict?

    I'll answer that: 'NEVER, NEVER, NEVER'



    Black people faced far worse treatment but the analogy stands. Nobody should be expected to love thine abuser.



    No buts. 50% +1.



    Grand so, we can agree to differ.


  • #191
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,116 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Grand so, we can agree to differ.

    You'll agree to differ with history too then and this the British version of it.


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  • #192
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    Dear blanch152, please be a good sport and address these questions.

    1. Why should anyone have any interest in respecting, or appeasing, any culture that is built on (long gone) supremacism and sectarianism?


    As opposed to respecting or appeasing any culture being built on the basis of future 50% +1 supremacism and sectarianism?

    It is easy to make glib phrases like that about another's culture. It is much more difficult to respect the others culture and disregard the blatantly sectarian aspects (certain Wolfe Tones songs, Provisional IRA badges, Hunger Strike celebrations etc. which are disgusting sectarian parts of our own culture).

    Both sides in the North need to do more to respect the other side's culture. I set out a proposal in an earlier post about how SF could be magnanimous and reach across the divide without compromising on Irish culture. An alternative first step would be to ban the sale of sectarian material from their website.

    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    2. I'll tell you how we begin to reconcile, Unionists apologising for thier treatment of the minority and, you know, actually causing the troubles. How would that sit with Unionists?

    I don't recall Unionists putting guns to the heads of IRA bombers to force them to detonate the bombs. The causes of the Troubles are multifold but there is no doubt that there are many on the Nationalist side who bear huge responsibility as well as others on the Unionist side. In particular, those who carried on the fight after Sunningdale carry a large amount of blame.
    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    3. Would your bizarre prescription for reconciliation expect Black people in the US to reconcile with the Klan?

    No. Two very very different situations in two very very different societies.


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »

    4. Under the terms of the GFA a 50% +1 vote is all that's required for a UI, do you respect that agreement?

    Many thanks.


    Of course, I respect the GFA, but I don't think you can have a solid foundation for a united Ireland based on a 50% +1 vote. For a united Ireland to succeed peacefully, it would need an overwhelming vote of close to 70% demonstrating that many Unionists have been convinced and won over.

    Otherwise, there is a real risk that the South will reject it.
    Outstanding post and agreed with every word of that. Particularly the sectarian numbers games these people try to play which has no meaning in the real world.


  • #193
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,620 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    It doesn't matter what it is. Sinn Fein is NOT getting an Irish Language Act unless Ulster Scots is included. I am just giving the reality of it. Sinn Fein can cry and moan about it to the cows come home, it won't matter. You know this too.

    Could you link to something that shows where this is coming from?
    Maybe you have some inside knowledge?
    Or maybe you are just indulging in the tried and tested and ultimately failed DUP tactic of shouting NEVER NEVER NEVER as loud as they can in the hope it hits the fact they have once again backed themselves into the untenable cul de sac they have become so familiar with. - Flags, marches etc


  • #194
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Fantastic post. It is just a sham and has nothing to do with the language at all. Sinn Fein aren't going anywhere with this one.

    Great we'll let the SDLP and Alliwnce continue. They want the same thing.


  • #195
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Outstanding post and agreed with every word of that. Particularly the sectarian numbers games these people try to play which has no meaning in the real world.

    You see Irish isn't sectarian. It was spoken by both sides a century ago. It would be a great way to build bridges across communities.


  • #196
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    You see Irish isn't sectarian. It was spoken by both sides a century ago. It would be a great way to build bridges across communities.

    In fact, many of the stalwarts of the Gaelic Revival and other Irish cultural revivals were wealthy Protestants.

    But you can't compare maintaining and promoting one of Europe's most ancient languages with aggressive bigotry and sectarianism. Or a dialect. To do so insults your neighbour and simply exposes frightened and biased thinking. The rest of the world is casting Unionism adrift. The Tory/DUP temporary little arrangement will be dropped soon As the UK sunders further, English/Scottish/Welsh politicians will do what is best for their electorate.

    Unionists who think that England will care about them are deluded. For its own sake, Unionism should think about who will be its friend in the future. Protestant ascendancy is over. Paranoid sulking and sectarianism won't bring it back. It's time to grow up.


  • #197
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    You see Irish isn't sectarian. It was spoken by both sides a century ago. It would be a great way to build bridges across communities.

    Nobody anywhere ever said Irish was sectarian. Why are you answering a point that was never ever made?


  • #198
    Irishweather
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Irishweather


    I've looked at the census (1901) and no one in either side of my family spoke Irish.

    I can certainly tell you that it has been a LONG old time since Irish was spoken with any capacity in my area.

    You can go on about Protestants speaking Irish etc, that was a LONG time ago, maybe in and around the 1800's. Looking at the population statistics in my area, i'm not sure that even happened anyway, with the fact that the Planter population here was higher than the Irish since about 1650.


  • #199
    Irishweather
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Irishweather


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Fantastic post. It is just a sham and has nothing to do with the language at all. Sinn Fein aren't going anywhere with this one.

    To be fair, I think people should be given a right to speak Irish if they want.But, I personally don't want Irish to get to the stage where we have it put on some sort of Pedestal, i.e given Irish Language Road Signs in North Antrim, more Irish Language schools than necessary, Irish language legislation, making Irish an Official language.

    You know wasting of money and enforcement of Irish when it is not necessary.

    After all, English is our first language here in Northern Ireland, not Irish.


  • #200
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Irishweather wrote: »
    To be fair, I think people should be given a right to speak Irish if they want.But, I personally don't want Irish to get to the stage where we have it put on some sort of Pedal Stool, i.e given Irish Language Road Signs in North Antrim, more Irish Language schools than necessary, Irish language legislation, making Irish an Official language.

    You know wasting of money and enforcement of Irish when it is not necessary.

    After all, English is our first language here in Northern Ireland, not Irish.

    Irish is an official language of the EU.


  • #201
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Irishweather wrote: »
    I've looked at the census (1901) and no one in either side of my family spoke
    Irish.

    I can certainly tell you that it has been a LONG old time since
    Irish was spoken with any capacity in my area.

    You can go on about
    Protestants speaking Irish etc, that was a LONG time ago, maybe in and around
    the 1800's. Looking at the population statistics in my area, i'm not sure that
    even happened anyway, with the fact that the Planter population here was
    higher than the Irish since about 1650.[/

    Would you have a link to this please?


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  • #202
    Irishweather
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Irishweather


    I have a copy of the 1659 Penders Census for County Londonderry, but I don't want to post it because it is copyrighted.

    Basically most areas in the county are 50/50 or 70/30, English/Scottish to Irish.

    1. Londonderry City: 54% English/Scottish, 46% Irish.
    2. Londonderry NE Liberties: 62% English/Scottish, 38% Irish.
    3. Coleraine: 70% English/Scottish, 30% Irish.
    4. Newton Limavady: 60% English/Scottish, 40% Irish.

    Those are the main population centres.


  • #203
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Irishweather wrote: »
    I have a copy of the 1659 Penders Census for County Londonderry, but I don't want to post it because it is copyrighted.

    Basically most areas in the county are 50/50 or 70/30, English/Scottish to Irish.

    1. Londonderry City: 54% English/Scottish, 46% Irish.
    2. Londonderry NE Liberties: 62% English/Scottish, 38% Irish.
    3. Coleraine: 70% English/Scottish, 30% Irish.
    4. Newton Limavady: 60% English/Scottish, 40% Irish.

    Those are the main population centres.

    Yeah, but they are a selection. Would you have any data for Ulster in the 1600s for instance, please?


  • #204
    Irishweather
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Irishweather


    What? I was specifically discussing my area.

    I can look up Northern Ireland for you, I don't expect to find anything compressive.My county has quite good census records so the other counties probably won't be as fruitful.


  • #205
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Irishweather wrote: »
    What? I was specifically discussing my area.

    I can look up Northern Ireland for you, I don't expect to find anything compressive.My county has quite good census records so the other counties probably won't be as fruitful.

    Well, 'your area' could mean a parish or the whole island. NI didn't exist in the 1600s.


  • #206
    Irishweather
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Irishweather


    County Londonderry/Derry. As we are talking about Northern Ireland and the Irish language here, I would've thought that was fairly self explanatory.


  • #207
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Irishweather wrote: »
    County Londonderry/Derry. As we are talking about Northern Ireland and the Irish language here, I would've thought that was fairly self explanatory.

    Ok. So you are saying that the population of Co. Derry contained more Planters than native Irish in the 1600s?


  • #208
    Irishweather
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Irishweather


    Um, i'm not certain if that is the case as the census only seems to include towns, i'm only pointing out that alot of areas do have more planters than Irish, hence the prevalence of the Irish language is probably limited at least here.

    http://www.billmacafee.com/sperrins/backgroundpapers/popntyrone1600-1991.pdf


  • #209
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Irishweather wrote: »
    Um, i'm not certain if that is the case as the census only seems to include towns, i'm only pointing out that alot of areas do have more planters than Irish, hence the prevalence of the Irish language is probably limited at least here.

    http://www.billmacafee.com/sperrins/backgroundpapers/popntyrone1600-1991.pdf

    Your link is otherwise quite interesting but is (self-admittedly) very unclear as to actual percentages in Tyrone in the 1600s (the link makes no reference whatsoever regarding populations in Derry).


  • #210
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,620 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The debate shouldn't be about individual views on the Irish language, it should be about the requirements of those who identify as Irish being given rights that have already been agreed as part of an international agreement.
    There has been two massive votes on the strategy of SF here and a massive amount of the electorate support them.
    The question is, what are the two responsible governments going to do to ensure that the GFA Is progressed.


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  • #211
    Irishweather
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Irishweather


    Shouldn't be given equal rights as English speakers though.


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