Irishweather wrote: » I've looked at the census (1901) and no one in either side of my family spoke Irish. I can certainly tell you that it has been a LONG old time since Irish was spoken with any capacity in my area. You can go on about Protestants speaking Irish etc, that was a LONG time ago, maybe in and around the 1800's. Looking at the population statistics in my area, i'm not sure that even happened anyway, with the fact that the Planter population here was higher than the Irish since about 1650.[/ Would you have a link to this please?
I've looked at the census (1901) and no one in either side of my family spoke Irish. I can certainly tell you that it has been a LONG old time since Irish was spoken with any capacity in my area. You can go on about Protestants speaking Irish etc, that was a LONG time ago, maybe in and around the 1800's. Looking at the population statistics in my area, i'm not sure that even happened anyway, with the fact that the Planter population here was higher than the Irish since about 1650.[/
Irishweather wrote: » To be fair, I think people should be given a right to speak Irish if they want.But, I personally don't want Irish to get to the stage where we have it put on some sort of Pedal Stool, i.e given Irish Language Road Signs in North Antrim, more Irish Language schools than necessary, Irish language legislation, making Irish an Official language. You know wasting of money and enforcement of Irish when it is not necessary. After all, English is our first language here in Northern Ireland, not Irish.
A Little Pony wrote: » Fantastic post. It is just a sham and has nothing to do with the language at all. Sinn Fein aren't going anywhere with this one.
steddyeddy wrote: » You see Irish isn't sectarian. It was spoken by both sides a century ago. It would be a great way to build bridges across communities.
A Little Pony wrote: » Outstanding post and agreed with every word of that. Particularly the sectarian numbers games these people try to play which has no meaning in the real world.
A Little Pony wrote: » It doesn't matter what it is. Sinn Fein is NOT getting an Irish Language Act unless Ulster Scots is included. I am just giving the reality of it. Sinn Fein can cry and moan about it to the cows come home, it won't matter. You know this too.
blanch152 wrote: » Junkyard Tom wrote: » Dear blanch152, please be a good sport and address these questions. 1. Why should anyone have any interest in respecting, or appeasing, any culture that is built on (long gone) supremacism and sectarianism? As opposed to respecting or appeasing any culture being built on the basis of future 50% +1 supremacism and sectarianism? It is easy to make glib phrases like that about another's culture. It is much more difficult to respect the others culture and disregard the blatantly sectarian aspects (certain Wolfe Tones songs, Provisional IRA badges, Hunger Strike celebrations etc. which are disgusting sectarian parts of our own culture). Both sides in the North need to do more to respect the other side's culture. I set out a proposal in an earlier post about how SF could be magnanimous and reach across the divide without compromising on Irish culture. An alternative first step would be to ban the sale of sectarian material from their website. Junkyard Tom wrote: » 2. I'll tell you how we begin to reconcile, Unionists apologising for thier treatment of the minority and, you know, actually causing the troubles. How would that sit with Unionists? I don't recall Unionists putting guns to the heads of IRA bombers to force them to detonate the bombs. The causes of the Troubles are multifold but there is no doubt that there are many on the Nationalist side who bear huge responsibility as well as others on the Unionist side. In particular, those who carried on the fight after Sunningdale carry a large amount of blame. Junkyard Tom wrote: » 3. Would your bizarre prescription for reconciliation expect Black people in the US to reconcile with the Klan? No. Two very very different situations in two very very different societies. Junkyard Tom wrote: » 4. Under the terms of the GFA a 50% +1 vote is all that's required for a UI, do you respect that agreement? Many thanks. Of course, I respect the GFA, but I don't think you can have a solid foundation for a united Ireland based on a 50% +1 vote. For a united Ireland to succeed peacefully, it would need an overwhelming vote of close to 70% demonstrating that many Unionists have been convinced and won over. Otherwise, there is a real risk that the South will reject it.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » Dear blanch152, please be a good sport and address these questions. 1. Why should anyone have any interest in respecting, or appeasing, any culture that is built on (long gone) supremacism and sectarianism?
Junkyard Tom wrote: » 2. I'll tell you how we begin to reconcile, Unionists apologising for thier treatment of the minority and, you know, actually causing the troubles. How would that sit with Unionists?
Junkyard Tom wrote: » 3. Would your bizarre prescription for reconciliation expect Black people in the US to reconcile with the Klan?
Junkyard Tom wrote: » 4. Under the terms of the GFA a 50% +1 vote is all that's required for a UI, do you respect that agreement? Many thanks.
blanch152 wrote: » Grand so, we can agree to differ.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » None of this answers the question posed, it's a rant of whataboutery and moral equivalence. I'll answer my own question. I, and I suspect many like me, have absolutely no intention of respecting a culture that that largely built on trying to disrespect me. You're trying to 'balance the books'. There was systemic discrimination against the minority and the civil rights movement was met with brutality, the UVF were blowing things up and trying to blame it on Republicans long before the PIRA even formed. When are unionists going to apologise for creating the conditions for conflict? I'll answer that: 'NEVER, NEVER, NEVER' Black people faced far worse treatment but the analogy stands. Nobody should be expected to love thine abuser. No buts. 50% +1.
blanch152 wrote: » As opposed to respecting or appeasing any culture being built on the basis of future 50% +1 supremacism and sectarianism? It is easy to make glib phrases like that about another's culture. It is much more difficult to respect the others culture and disregard the blatantly sectarian aspects (certain Wolfe Tones songs, Provisional IRA badges, Hunger Strike celebrations etc. which are disgusting sectarian parts of our own culture). Both sides in the North need to do more to respect the other side's culture. I set out a proposal in an earlier post about how SF could be magnanimous and reach across the divide without compromising on Irish culture. An alternative first step would be to ban the sale of sectarian material from their website.
The causes of the Troubles are multifold but there is no doubt that there are many on the Nationalist side who bear huge responsibility as well as others on the Unionist side.
No. Two very very different situations in two very very different societies.
Of course, I respect the GFA, but...
A Little Pony wrote: » The worst thing to ever have happened to the language is Sinn Fein.
Good luck to Sinn Fein because if Irish Nationalists are gullible enough to believe them then fair play to them.
tomwaterford wrote: » A Little Pony wrote: » It doesn't matter what it is. Sinn Fein is NOT getting an Irish Language Act unless Ulster Scots is included. I am just giving the reality of it. Sinn Fein can cry and moan about it to the cows come home, it won't matter. You know this too. And there is the exact unionist mindset We know it's not a language But anything Irish can go smoke itself, If we can't have out little add on to take the piss out of it.....a 16th century mindset mascarading as a culture/political ideology
steddyeddy wrote: » Red_Wake wrote: » I'm asking about the SF response - how would you describe it, and is it constructive to making inroads to a long term solution? If they're not doing the latter, they're guilty of kicking the can down the road as well. Would you agree or disagree? It isn't constructive to ignore the fact that the DUP and their voters woupd do anything to fight Irish culture in the North. Cutting funds to send special needs to gaeltacht schools while pouring money into the Orange Order. They haven't accepted Irish culture. They didn'teven want to sign up to the GFA.so yes, SF were right to end government. It wasn't conducive to parity of esteem to continue.
Red_Wake wrote: » I'm asking about the SF response - how would you describe it, and is it constructive to making inroads to a long term solution? If they're not doing the latter, they're guilty of kicking the can down the road as well. Would you agree or disagree?
steddyeddy wrote: » A Little Pony wrote: » If they don't have Ulster Scots with it then they won't be getting it. Pretty much as simple as that. Ulster Scotts isn't a language. It's quite simple.
A Little Pony wrote: » If they don't have Ulster Scots with it then they won't be getting it. Pretty much as simple as that.
Jep Gambardella wrote: » According to the 2011 census, Irish was the main language of 0.238% of Northern Irish residents, while Ulster Scots was the main language of 0.004%. In other words, a grand total of 0.242% of the population of Northern Ireland speaks either as their primary language Both the DUP and Sinn Fein should get their Language Act (or Acts) provided their assembly members agree to finance all the additional costs, including translation, signage, etc. out of their own pockets.
blanch152 wrote: » The mere fact that people make glib comparisons between Unionists and the KKK as one poster did, shows how far mutual understanding and mutual respect have to go before the idea of unification can even be tabled.
steddyeddy wrote: » It isn't constructive to ignore the fact that the DUP and their voters woupd do anything to fight Irish culture in the North. Cutting funds to send special needs to gaeltacht schools while pouring money into the Orange Order. They haven't accepted Irish culture. They didn'teven want to sign up to the GFA.so yes, SF were right to end government. It wasn't conducive to parity of esteem to continue.
blanch152 wrote: » There is always a choice, I outlined one in an earlier post. Choice isn't lacking, courage is.
FrancieBrady wrote: » I think SF had no choice and were right to do what they did. Now the two governments have to play their part and pressure the DUP to allow progress to normality to continue. This 'can' has been kicked down the road since the GFA,
blanch152 wrote: » A real gamechanger for SF would be to back down on the Irish Language Act issue, accepting a Minority Languages Act instead, but in return insisted on same sex-marriage legalisation and adoption of UK abortion law. Now that would show they are interested in all the citizens of Northern Ireland rather than their own little patch. .
FrancieBrady wrote: » Red_Wake wrote: » How would you describe the current SF response to unionism? And is it a productive way of resolving the situation? All the other parties would describe the behaviour of the DUP since the GFA as frustrating and intolerable any longer. You cannot expect anybody to go on and on and on appeasing. (which is what southern partitionists always seem to want)
Red_Wake wrote: » How would you describe the current SF response to unionism? And is it a productive way of resolving the situation?
