Stormont power sharing talks

Baralis1

I think the provisionals need to take their seats at Westminster now that they can't get the assembly up and running. Otherwise, the nationalist community are going to have absolutely no say in anything to do with the governance of NI or Brexit and the DUP and Tories will call all the shots.
By the way, there's no way that any right minded individual can call Ulster Scots a language. It's just pronouncing and writing English words in a Scottish accent. Irish is obviously the native language of Ireland. Having said that, I don't think it's a critical issue for it to have parity with English in NI. Surely there are more pressing issues

A Little Pony

Sinn Fein talk about equality with the one side of the mouth while praising terrorists on the other side. So it isn't a surprise that the DUP isn't buckling for them and why should they.

end of the road

A Little Pony wrote: »

Sinn Fein talk about equality with the one side of the mouth while praising terrorists on the other side. So it isn't a surprise that the DUP isn't buckling for them and why should they.

they wouldn't be buckling for sinn fein. they would be recognising that irish citizens live in the territory and that they have to insure that the culture of those people is given the same treatment as the culture of the unionists. they are supposed to be democratic after all, but as we know they are as undemocratic as it gets. sectarianism and hatred is the undemocratic unionist party's mantra. but that's okay because sinn fein or some other rabel.

A Little Pony

end of the road wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Sinn Fein talk about equality with the one side of the mouth while praising terrorists on the other side. So it isn't a surprise that the DUP isn't buckling for them and why should they.

they wouldn't be buckling for sinn fein. they would be recognising that irish citizens live in the territory and that they have to insure that the culture of those people is given the same treatment as the culture of the unionists. they are supposed to be democratic after all, but as we know they are as undemocratic as it gets. sectarianism and hatred is the undemocratic unionist party's mantra. but that's okay because sinn fein or some other rabel.

They don't want equality. It's a shame some people believe the propaganda nonsense from Adams and his goons. Maybe one day people will see the truth. If they wanted it they would have accepted it in a language act as proposed by the DUP. 

The power sharing executive is over and no sign of it returning.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

They don't want equality. It's a shame some people believe the propaganda nonsense from Adams and his goons. Maybe one day people will see the truth. If they wanted it they would have accepted it in a language act as proposed by the DUP. 

The power sharing executive is over and no sign of it returning.

The standalone language act was agreed with the British at St Andrew's, the DUP are blocking it as well as a raft of other rights.

end of the road

A Little Pony wrote: »

They don't want equality. It's a shame some people believe the propaganda nonsense from Adams and his goons. Maybe one day people will see the truth. If they wanted it they would have accepted it in a language act as proposed by the DUP.

they did accept the language act proposed by the undemocratic unionist party. in exchange for that, they wanted the undemocratic unionist party to accept a language act as well, an act which the undemocratic unionist party refused to accept. sinn fein do want equality, the undemocratic unionist party don't. they only want unionism, orangism and loyalism and nothing else.

A Little Pony wrote: »

The power sharing executive is over and no sign of it returning.

exactly, and direct rule is now an inevitability, which means the undemocratic unionist party are now in full charge of northern ireland, which is dangerous for all it's citizens.

A Little Pony

end of the road wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

They don't want equality. It's a shame some people believe the propaganda nonsense from Adams and his goons. Maybe one day people will see the truth. If they wanted it they would have accepted it in a language act as proposed by the DUP.

they did accept the language act proposed by the undemocratic unionist party. in exchange for that, they wanted the undemocratic unionist party to accept a language act as well, an act which the undemocratic unionist party refused to accept. sinn fein do want equality, the undemocratic unionist party don't. they only want unionism, orangism and loyalism and nothing else.

A Little Pony wrote: »

The power sharing executive is over and no sign of it returning.

exactly, and direct rule is now an inevitability, which means the undemocratic unionist party are now in full charge of northern ireland, which is dangerous for all it's citizens.

Too late for Sinn Fein now, they have refused to budge on any issues which they think Republicanism owns, a language which doesn't even belong to them. Unionists aren't going to just bend the knee for them.

tomwaterford

A Little Pony wrote: »

They don't want equality. It's a shame some people believe the propaganda nonsense from Adams and his goons. Maybe one day people will see the truth. If they wanted it they would have accepted it in a language act as proposed by the DUP. 

The power sharing executive is over and no sign of it returning.

Why should they just have to accept any oul sop of a language act thrown out by the dup???

In an Ireland of equals and the parity of esteem under the gfa they have as much right to word the language act as anyone else,I would've taught?

A Little Pony

tomwaterford wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

They don't want equality. It's a shame some people believe the propaganda nonsense from Adams and his goons. Maybe one day people will see the truth. If they wanted it they would have accepted it in a language act as proposed by the DUP. 

The power sharing executive is over and no sign of it returning.

Why should they just have to accept any oul sop of a language act thrown out by the dup???

In an Ireland of equals and the parity of esteem under the gfa they have as much right to word the language act as anyone else,I would've taught?

If they don't have Ulster Scots with it then they won't be getting it. Pretty much as simple as that.

tomwaterford

A Little Pony wrote: »

If they don't have Ulster Scots with it then they won't be getting it. Pretty much as simple as that.

That's words literally wrote with an accent


It's not a language,it's an accent
Where I'm from has an accent and we don't try blag ourselves a language out of it,deise-irish :rolleyes:

(Words pronounced slightly different/different meanings etc)



It's like it was made up and ran with to take the piss out of the Irish language tbh....when was the first time it appeared as a language option on the cencus??

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

If they don't have Ulster Scots with it then they won't be getting it. Pretty much as simple as that.

Since the GFA the DUP have capitulated on every push to normality. Sure, there will be the chorus of Never, Never, Never for a while, but like marches, the flag etc. they will reach the end of the cul de sac they drove up themselves and without ado sign on the dotted line.
The British have already agreed this, only a matter of time.

steddyeddy

A Little Pony wrote: »

If they don't have Ulster Scots with it then they won't be getting it. Pretty much as simple as that.

Ulster Scotts isn't a language. It's quite simple.

Red_Wake

steddyeddy wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

If they don't have Ulster Scots with it then they won't be getting it. Pretty much as simple as that.

Ulster Scotts isn't a language. It's quite simple.

And the nose should be cut off to spite the face?

steddyeddy

Red_Wake wrote: »

And the nose should be cut off to spite the face?

What are you talking about? We should pretend that Ulster Scotts is a language? How about we try to leave behind tit for tat politics and stop screaming "I want a language act too" because the other side got something.

LeinsterDub

tomwaterford wrote: »

That's words literally wrote with an accent


It's not a language,it's an accent
Where I'm from has an accent and we don't try blag ourselves a language out of it,deise-irish :rolleyes:

(Words pronounced slightly different/different meanings etc)



It's like it was made up and ran with to take the piss out of the Irish language tbh....when was the first time it appeared as a language option on the cencus??

Language v dialect is actually quite complicated. I certainly can understand 80% of what he says and it does just seem like English with an accent but there are words I've never heard.

Red_Wake

steddyeddy wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

And the nose should be cut off to spite the face?

What are you talking about? We should pretend that Ulster Scotts is a language? How about we try to leave behind tit for tat politics and stop screaming "I want a language act too" because the other side got something.

It would be superb if both sides were capable of this, rather than insisting only the other side should.

Why is it so offensive that Ulster Scots is considered on par with Irish? Both are spoken only by an extreme minority.

FrancieBrady

Red_Wake wrote: »

It would be superb if both sides were capable of this, rather than insisting only the other side should.

Why is it so offensive that Ulster Scots is considered on par with Irish? Both are spoken only by an extreme minority.

Unionism must always be deferred to?
It is plain to anyone that Irish Scots is only a recent 'thing' and has been introduced just to dilute giving Irish the status those who identify as Irish want it to have, i.e. equality.

All the issues surrounding the breakdown of the Executive surround equality issues. Just because they don't affect you or you think they are unimportant or of equal importance to some other randomly invented thing, is not and never was, the issue.

The DUP will capitulate on this because just like 'marching', 'the flag' etc, it is an untenable position.

Junkyard Tom

Red_Wake wrote: »

Why is it so offensive that Ulster Scots is considered on par with Irish?

It's not offensive - it's just wrong. Ulster Scots is not a langauge, it's little more than strong-accented English.

I'd have no problem understanding a person speaking Ulster Scots, I haven't a word of Irish and wouldn't have a clue what people speaking it are saying, never mind reading it.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It's not offensive - it's just wrong. Ulster Scots is not a langauge, it's little more than strong-accented English.

I'd have no problem understanding a person speaking Ulster Scots, I haven't a word of Irish and wouldn't have a clue what people speaking it are saying, never mind reading it.

And NOBODY in the Executive has a problem preserving/funding Ulster Scots. They are just not any longer going to tolerate Unionism's silly games around these issues.
Enough is enough.

McMurphy

Red_Wake wrote: »

Why is it so offensive that Ulster Scots is considered on par with Irish?

Because it's not a language, it's a dialect.

So it cannot possibly be on par.

LeinsterDub

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It's not offensive - it's just wrong. Ulster Scots is not a langauge, it's little more than strong-accented English.

I'd have no problem understanding a person speaking Ulster Scots, I haven't a word of Irish and wouldn't have a clue what people speaking it are saying, never mind reading it.

Did you understand the entire video I posted?

FrancieBrady

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Did you understand the entire video I posted?

There are words in cockney I don't understand or Kerry or even the south of the county I live in.

It doesn't make them an important and distinct language.

Chips Lovell

According to the 2011 census, Irish was the main language of 0.238% of Northern Irish residents, while Ulster Scots was the main language of 0.004%. In other words, a grand total of 0.242% of the population of Northern Ireland speaks either as their primary language

Both the DUP and Sinn Fein should get their Language Act (or Acts) provided their assembly members agree to finance all the additional costs, including translation, signage, etc. out of their own pockets.

LeinsterDub

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There are words in cockney I don't understand or Kerry or even the south of the county I live in.

It doesn't make them an important and distinct language.

Many linguist would disagree with you.

steddyeddy

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Many linguist would disagree with you.

No they wouldn't. In terms of language there would be very very few competent linguists that would class Ulster Scotts in the same class as Irish.

Junkyard Tom

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Did you understand the entire video I posted?

Bad link. Could you post it again please.

Edit just watched this. Yes, easily understood it. I grew up in the north west. My Grandmother lived in the countryside where I spent a lot of time and the way they're speaking in that vid is not unlike a thick country accent there.

Professor Moriarty

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

According to the 2011 census, Irish was the main language of 0.238% of Northern Irish residents, while Ulster Scots was the main language of 0.004%. In other words, a grand total of 0.242% of the population of Northern Ireland speaks either as their primary language

Both the DUP and Sinn Fein should get their Language Act (or Acts) provided their assembly members agree to finance all the additional costs, including translation, signage, etc. out of their own pockets.

OK. You are one of those people who believes the state should not financially support the Irish language. It's not a position I agree with but you are entitled to it. However, in passing judgement, it is important that you understand the difference between a language and a dialect.

Ulster Scots is not a language, it is a dialect.

Here's Alice in Wonderland translated into Ulster Scots:

The Caterpillar an Alice lukt at ither fur a quare while wi’oot taakin: finally the Caterpillar tuk the hookah oot o its mooth, an spoke tae hir in a languid, dozy voice.“Wha ir yae?” said the Caterpillar.This wusnae a perfu guid openin fur a yarn. Alice answer brev an baakwardly, “A—A harly know, Sir, jest at this minute—at least A know wha A wus this moarnin, but heth A hae bin changed a wheen o times since thin.”“What dae yae mean bae that?” said the Caterpillar sternly. “Explain yersel!”“A cannae explain maesel, A’m feert, Sir “ said Alice, “baecaas A’m naw maesel, yae see.”“A dinnae see,” said the Caterpillar.“A cannae mak it onie mair clear,” Alice answer, wile polite, “fur A cannae unnerstan it maesel tae stairt wi; an baein sae monie different sizes in yin dae haes turnt mae heid.”"


Irish is an ancient and distinct language. It is older than many languages including English.

Here's Alice in Wonderland as Gaeilge:

“An bealach sin,” a dúirt an Cat agus g bagairt a lapa dheis, “t ar Hait: agus an bealach sin,” agus g bagairt an lapa eile, “t ar Ghiorria Ma. Tabhair cuairt ar cibuine acu is mian leat: tiad as a meabhair beirt.” “Ach nm ag iarraidh dul i measc daoine ats a meabhair,” a dúirt Eil “Nleigheas agat air sin, arú,” a dúirt an Cat. “Tid go l as meabhair anseo. Tise as mo mheabhair. Tusa as do mheabhair.”
“Conas at fhios agat go bhfuil mise as mo mheabhair?” a d’fhiafraigh Eil
“Caithfidh go bhfuil tú as do mheabhair,” a dúirt an Cat, “

Professor Moriarty

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Many linguist would disagree with you.

Which linguists have said that Ulster Scots is a language?

LeinsterDub

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Which linguists have said that Ulster Scots is a language?

Bergs, Alexander (2001). "Modern Scots". Languages of the World. Bow Historical Books. 242: 4. Scots developed out of a mixture of Scandinavianised Northern English during the early Middle English period
Jump up ^ Bergs, Alexander (2001). "Modern Scots". Languages of the World. Bow Historical Books. 242: 50. Scots originated as one form of Northern Old English and quickly developed into a language in its own right up to the seventeenth century
Jump up ^ Sandred, Karl Inge (1983). "Good or Bad Scots?: Attitudes to Optional Lexical and Grammatical Usages in Edinburgh". ACTA Universitatis Upsaliensis. Ubsaliensis S. Academiae. 48: 13. ISBN 9789155414429. Whereas Modern Standard English is traced back to an East Midland dialect of Middle English, Modern Scots developed from a northern variety which goes back to Old Northumbrian

Anyway I'm not here to defend (Ulster) Scots was just pointing out that what is and isn't a Language isn't clear .

LeinsterDub

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Bad link. Could you post it again please.

Edit just watched this. Yes, easily understood it. I grew up in the north west. My Grandmother lived in the countryside where I spent a lot of time and the way they're speaking in that vid is not unlike a thick country accent there.

As I said it's understandable but there is are also a large amount of words not used in Standard English. Some have claimed Scots is language others a dialect . Is Portuguese just a dialect of Spanish? Scots Gaelic a dialect of Irish?

blanch152

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

According to the 2011 census, Irish was the main language of 0.238% of Northern Irish residents, while Ulster Scots was the main language of 0.004%. In other words, a grand total of 0.242% of the population of Northern Ireland speaks either as their primary language

Both the DUP and Sinn Fein should get their Language Act (or Acts) provided their assembly members agree to finance all the additional costs, including translation, signage, etc. out of their own pockets.

Given the tiny numbers involved, any form of Language Act is a waste of money.

It is 100% tied up in political symbolism with SF trying to get one-up on the Unionist community. It is quite frankly tiresome and tedious. If that part of the UK is ever to achieve normality it must be on the basis of mutual recognition of each others' heritage, however small or inconsequential the other side views the particular heritage.

Ulster Scots has acquired cultural meaning for part of the Unionist community and therefore requires recognition on the same basis as Irish. Anything else is just a continuation of the endless getting one up on the other side nonsense.