Stormont power sharing talks

tomwaterford · 20-07-2017 05:44PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

Do you actually believe that Unionists make up their entire culture to denigrate, what you perceive, as Irish culture?

Yes, particularly in relation to this language

Do you have evidence to suggest they've culture that amounts to.anything else other than trimplulism

Red_Wake · 20-07-2017 05:57PM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

Do you actually believe that Unionists make up their entire culture to denigrate, what you perceive, as Irish culture?

Yes, particularly in relation to this language

Do you have evidence to suggest they've culture that amounts to.anything else other than trimplulism

How do you expect anyone to believe you'd respect and coexist with Unionists, when you come out with statements like that?

FrancieBrady · 20-07-2017 06:06PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

How do you expect anyone to believe you'd respect and coexist with Unionists, when you come out with statements like that?

He is talking about 'loyalism'.

'Co-existing on an equal basis' is not kowtowing, sweeping stuff under the carpet or pretending.

Now if you can pretend, like others here, that the reason Stormont has collapsed is the fault of the Irish people of northern Ireland then you carry on doing that.
It really won't help or make any difference.

The rest of us will keep the pressure on these religiously fundamentalist, suprematists to honour the committments to equality for everyone made in various agreements that they want to cherrypick from.

If the Irish people of northern Ireland had rolled over on the flag issue, marches etc like it is suggested they should do here, you would be dealing with more futile conflict at the flashpoints.

tomwaterford · 20-07-2017 06:10PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

How do you expect anyone to believe you'd respect and coexist with Unionists, when you come out with statements like that?

What is wrong with this statement??

They've no interest in respect or coexisting.... continue ly voting in the dup...treating any minority with contempt (LGBT,refugees,polish immigrants in the north have been treated terribly in loyalist area)

Hardly as bad as refering to Ireland's national games as terrorists at play?

If they weren't forced to,they wouldn't share power with nationlists...they treat nationlists issues with contempt and block and play to rules to avoid/skirt around Irish language issues etc

steddyeddy · 20-07-2017 07:21PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

Do you actually believe that Unionists make up their entire culture to denigrate, what you perceive, as Irish culture?

Bonfires with Irish flags?

FrancieBrady · 20-07-2017 08:03PM

If we were to write a list of all the things the DUP have dug their heels in about since before the GFA and after, it would be TL;DR.
And all of it based on their insecure anti-Irish and fundamentalist ideology.
And they capitulated on every one of them because their position is basically untenable and northern Ireland is a much much better place for that reason.

Their can be no hiding place for bigotry and suprematism on this island, not in a political party nor behind the skirts of a church.

blanch152 · 20-07-2017 11:56PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

Do you actually believe that Unionists make up their entire culture to denigrate, what you perceive, as Irish culture?

It is very hard to understand but that type of sentiment appears to be widespread among Northern nationalists. It speaks to either

(1) an astonishing level of paranoia

(2) an embittered and entrenched hatred of unionists

(3) I really can't think of a third option.

Either way it doesn't augur well for mutual respect and recognition of each others culture. If one side believes the others culture is solely for the purpose of degenerating theirs there is little hope of any reconciliation progress in the North, a necessary precondition for progress towards a united Ireland.

FrancieBrady · 21-07-2017 12:04AM

blanch152 wrote: »

It is very hard to understand but that type of sentiment appears to be widespread among Northern nationalists. It speaks to either

(1) an astonishing level of paranoia

(2) an embittered and entrenched hatred of unionists

(3) I really can't think of a third option.

Either way it doesn't augur well for mutual respect and recognition of each others culture. If one side believes the others culture is solely for the purpose of degenerating theirs there is little hope of any reconciliation progress in the North, a necessary precondition for progress towards a united Ireland.

I'll challenge you to a list.
I will list unionist anti Irish/fundamentalist stances over the last 30 years and you come back with nationalist/Republican ones of the same weight, and we'll put the 'they are all the same' claim to bed once and for all.
You up for it?

blanch152 · 21-07-2017 12:05AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If we were to write a list of all the things the DUP have dug their heels in about since before the GFA and after, it would be TL;DR.
And all of it based on their insecure anti-Irish and fundamentalist ideology.
And they capitulated on every one of them because their position is basically untenable and northern Ireland is a much much better place for that reason.

Their can be no hiding place for bigotry and suprematism on this island, not in a political party nor behind the skirts of a church.

There is nobody on here defending the DUP's religious bigotry, misogyny or homophobia. However, it is interesting that the main thing being raised by nationalists on here is the Irish Language Act, mirroring SF's major concern out in the real world.

A real gamechanger for SF would be to back down on the Irish Language Act issue, accepting a Minority Languages Act instead, but in return insisted on same sex-marriage legalisation and adoption of UK abortion law. Now that would show they are interested in all the citizens of Northern Ireland rather than their own little patch.

Given the outrage that suggestion will create on here, I hold out little hope of it making it.

FrancieBrady · 21-07-2017 12:19AM

blanch152 wrote: »

There is nobody on here defending the DUP's religious bigotry, misogyny or homophobia. However, it is interesting that the main thing being raised by nationalists on here is the Irish Language Act, mirroring SF's major concern out in the real world.

A real gamechanger for SF would be to back down on the Irish Language Act issue, accepting a Minority Languages Act instead, but in return insisted on same sex-marriage legalisation and adoption of UK abortion law. Now that would show they are interested in all the citizens of Northern Ireland rather than their own little patch.

Given the outrage that suggestion will create on here, I hold out little hope of it making it.

Acquiesce to make some people feel a little better about not calling out unadulterated bigotry and supremacy that has been going on since the foundation of the statelet?
Not going to happen in my name.
We have reached a crossroad.

blanch152 · 21-07-2017 12:24AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'll challenge you to a list.
I will list unionist anti Irish/fundamentalist stances over the last 30 years and you come back with nationalist/Republican ones of the same weight, and we'll put the 'they are all the same' claim to bed once and for all.
You up for it?

You are the one that portrays me as having made a "they are all the same" claim as if it can be measured.

Why 30 years? Why not 50 years or the normal 800 years of oppression?

Looking back 20 years I only need to give one example - the Omagh bombing - to balance out the unionists anti-Irish stances (the fundamentalist stances should be disregarded) . Now I know the response will be that was not SF or the IRA and was condemned by ordinary nationalists, but there are many unionists who do not support the DUP position on everything.

If, as you appear to do, wish to tarnish the entire Unionist community with responsibility for the attitude of the DUP, then you must accept responsibility for the Omagh bombing and all other dissident republican activity.

blanch152 · 21-07-2017 12:26AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Acquiesce to make some people feel a little better about not calling out unadulterated bigotry and supremacy that has been going on since the foundation of the statelet?
Not going to happen in my name.
We have reached a crossroad.

Not at all, make a big step towards representing all the people of Northern Ireland and be magnanimous towards the other side. Probably something beyond any of the actors in the North at the moment, but something we outsiders can wish for.

Junkyard Tom · 21-07-2017 12:37AM

blanch152 wrote: »

It is very hard to understand but that type of sentiment appears to be widespread among Northern nationalists. It speaks to either

(1) an astonishing level of paranoia

(2) an embittered and entrenched hatred of unionists

This year was the most peaceful 12th in decades. Why? The parades commision has put a stop to orange/unionist parades being forced through where they're not wanted. Meanwhile Orangemen called for the DUP to include marching up the Garvaghy Road as a condition of DUP support for the Tories.

Either way it doesn't augur well for mutual respect and recognition of each others culture.

Why should anyone have any interest in respecting, or appeasing, any culture that is built on (long gone) supremacism and sectarianism? To hell with that.

I'll tell you how we begin to reconcile, Unionists apologising for thier treatment of the minority and, you know, actually causing the troubles. How would that sit with the DUP?

there is little hope of any reconciliation progress in the North

Would your bizarre prescription for reconciliation expect Black people in the US to reconcile with the Klan?

a necessary precondition for progress towards a united Ireland

Nope. 50% plus one vote. You're not against the GFA are you?

FrancieBrady · 21-07-2017 12:43AM

blanch152 wrote: »

You are the one that portrays me as having made a "they are all the same" claim as if it can be measured.

Why 30 years? Why not 50 years or the normal 800 years of oppression?

Looking back 20 years I only need to give one example - the Omagh bombing - to balance out the unionists anti-Irish stances (the fundamentalist stances should be disregarded) . Now I know the response will be that was not SF or the IRA and was condemned by ordinary nationalists, but there are many unionists who do not support the DUP position on everything.

If, as you appear to do, wish to tarnish the entire Unionist community with responsibility for the attitude of the DUP, then you must accept responsibility for the Omagh bombing and all other dissident republican activity.

Time and again on here I have described ordinary unionists as pragmatic reasonable decent people. And made the point time and again, that they are the reason Unionist politicians cannot and never have delivered the Never Never Never Armageddon they have so often threatened ( let's do the list to prove that).
All acts of violence were terrible, I accept that. Everybody, including those in the south who sat on their moral high ground, is tarnished by that. But it is over.

We have had circa 30 years talking about a settlement and an agreement.

I still challenge you to a list of behaviour under that settlement, that I contend will prove that there is one political party that is holding up normality and progress.

ARE you up to the challenge?

blanch152 · 21-07-2017 12:46AM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Would your bizarre prescription for reconciliation expect Black people in the US to reconcile with the Klan?

There is no comparison. At all.

Junkyard Tom · 21-07-2017 12:52AM

Don't pick one part of the post out so you can conveniently ignore the remainder.

blanch152 wrote: »

There is no comparison. At all.

I'll be a gentleman and make it easier for you:

1. Why should anyone have any interest in respecting, or appeasing, any culture that is built on (long gone) supremacism and sectarianism?

2. I'll tell you how we begin to reconcile, Unionists apologising for thier treatment of the minority and, you know, actually causing the troubles. How would that sit with Unionists? [amended DUP for Unionists]

3. Would your bizarre prescription for reconciliation expect Black people in the US to reconcile with the Klan?

4. Under the terms of the GFA a 50% +1 vote is all that's required for a UI, do you respect that agreement? [amended for clarity]

That's four questions.

FrancieBrady · 21-07-2017 12:54AM

blanch152 wrote: »

Not at all, make a big step towards representing all the people of Northern Ireland and be magnanimous towards the other side. Probably something beyond any of the actors in the North at the moment, but something we outsiders can wish for.

No.
Belligerent bigoted Unionism is not going to be appeased. Neither is lazy hat doffing partitionism. That is just kicking the problem down a road.

Red_Wake · 21-07-2017 11:27AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

Not at all, make a big step towards representing all the people of Northern Ireland and be magnanimous towards the other side. Probably something beyond any of the actors in the North at the moment, but something we outsiders can wish for.

No.
Belligerent bigoted Unionism is not going to be appeased. Neither is lazy hat doffing partitionism. That is just kicking the problem down a road.

How would you describe the current SF response to unionism?

And is it a productive way of resolving the situation?

At the minute, it seems like nationalists are waiting for your 50% +1 votes, which is a product of demographic change as much as anything else[and could be set back by any number of national/international events], and hoping that in the event of unification, your opposing community will effectively cease to exist[which given the belligerence you repeatedly bring up, is unlikely].

Personally, as a voter in the ROI, were I asked to vote for a UI, I would vote for partition to continue. How would you persuade me that my concerns[economic, political, cultural and social] are unfounded?

steddyeddy · 21-07-2017 11:32AM

blanch152 wrote: »

There is no comparison. At all.

Well apart from the Orange Order/klan links. Sectarianism and supremacy.

blanch152 · 21-07-2017 11:39AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well apart from the Orange Order/klan links. Sectarianism and supremacy.

The mere fact that people make glib comparisons between Unionists and the KKK as one poster did, shows how far mutual understanding and mutual respect have to go before the idea of unification can even be tabled.

FrancieBrady · 21-07-2017 11:49AM

Red_Wake wrote: »

How would you describe the current SF response to unionism?

And is it a productive way of resolving the situation?

All the other parties would describe the behaviour of the DUP since the GFA as frustrating and intolerable any longer.
You cannot expect anybody to go on and on and on appeasing. (which is what southern partitionists always seem to want)

At the minute, it seems like nationalists are waiting for your 50% +1 votes, which is a product of demographic change as much as anything else[and could be set back by any number of national/international events], and hoping that in the event of unification, your opposing community will effectively cease to exist[which given the belligerence you repeatedly bring up, is unlikely].

Personally, as a voter in the ROI, were I asked to vote for a UI, I would vote for partition to continue. How would you persuade me that my concerns[economic, political, cultural and social] are unfounded?

Off topic, open another thread.

Red_Wake · 21-07-2017 12:01PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

How would you describe the current SF response to unionism?

And is it a productive way of resolving the situation?

All the other parties would describe the behaviour of the DUP since the GFA as frustrating and intolerable any longer.
You cannot expect anybody to go on and on and on appeasing. (which is what southern partitionists always seem to want)

I'm asking about the SF response - how would you describe it, and is it constructive to making inroads to a long term solution?

If they're not doing the latter, they're guilty of kicking the can down the road as well. Would you agree or disagree?

FrancieBrady · 21-07-2017 12:04PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

I'm asking about the SF response - how would you describe it, and is it constructive to making inroads to a long term solution?

If they're not doing the latter, they're guilty of kicking the can down the road as well. Would you agree or disagree?

I think SF had no choice and were right to do what they did.

Now the two governments have to play their part and pressure the DUP to allow progress to normality to continue.

This 'can' has been kicked down the road since the GFA,

blanch152 · 21-07-2017 12:07PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think SF had no choice and were right to do what they did.

Now the two governments have to play their part and pressure the DUP to allow progress to normality to continue.

This 'can' has been kicked down the road since the GFA,

There is always a choice, I outlined one in an earlier post.

blanch152 wrote: »

A real gamechanger for SF would be to back down on the Irish Language Act issue, accepting a Minority Languages Act instead, but in return insisted on same sex-marriage legalisation and adoption of UK abortion law. Now that would show they are interested in all the citizens of Northern Ireland rather than their own little patch.

.

Choice isn't lacking, courage is.

steddyeddy · 21-07-2017 12:10PM

blanch152 wrote: »

The mere fact that people make glib comparisons between Unionists and the KKK as one poster did, shows how far mutual understanding and mutual respect have to go before the idea of unification can even be tabled.

So Catholics in the North should get to know an organisation that hates Catholocs so much their members are banned if they go to a Catholic's funeral. No thanks. Maybe black people get to know the KKK or jews try to understand anti-semetic groups.

FrancieBrady · 21-07-2017 12:12PM

blanch152 wrote: »

There is always a choice, I outlined one in an earlier post.

Choice isn't lacking, courage is.

Appeasement to satisfy the lazy is no longer an option.
The road to normality has been waymarked with this Never Never Never stance...then capitulation and we get on with it.
And all the while unionism is finding out it isn't hell. It is just 'normal'.

Courage is to hold your ground and not give in.

steddyeddy · 21-07-2017 12:21PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

I'm asking about the SF response - how would you describe it, and is it constructive to making inroads to a long term solution?

If they're not doing the latter, they're guilty of kicking the can down the road as well. Would you agree or disagree?

It isn't constructive to ignore the fact that the DUP and their voters woupd do anything to fight Irish culture in the North. Cutting funds to send special needs to gaeltacht schools while pouring money into the Orange Order. They haven't accepted Irish culture. They didn'teven want to sign up to the GFA.so yes, SF were right to end government. It wasn't conducive to parity of esteem to continue.

FrancieBrady · 21-07-2017 12:27PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

It isn't constructive to ignore the fact that the DUP and their voters woupd do anything to fight Irish culture in the North. Cutting funds to send special needs to gaeltacht schools while pouring money into the Orange Order. They haven't accepted Irish culture. They didn'teven want to sign up to the GFA.so yes, SF were right to end government. It wasn't conducive to parity of esteem to continue.

'Esteem' it seems is appeasing religiously fundamental and culturally bigoted parties so that they can set up roadblocks further down the road.
That is the 'courageous' option apparently.

Fascinating really.

tomwaterford · 21-07-2017 01:04PM

blanch152 wrote: »

The mere fact that people make glib comparisons between Unionists and the KKK as one poster did, shows how far mutual understanding and mutual respect have to go before the idea of unification can even be tabled.

Tbf both are built on open bigotry and trimplulism??

Only on boards would you get someone to bat for the Orangemen, completely ignoring their anti Catholic anti Irish stance and say they should be understood/respected

If you grew up about them and they calling your mother's and sisters Fenian sluts and spitting into your garden passing and pissing on your local church.....it's somewhat hard to find anything to like about them

Except their delicious irony of playing the famine song in Ireland (another little lovable misunderstood song :rolleyes: )

It's a bigot organisation,it always was and most prodestants I've met my own age,from about Antrim wouldn't touch it with a barge pole....but you continue to beat the drum for em.....it's not that your blinded by anti SF has made you Scrabble desperately for allies...so you've leaned onto an organisation,which most likely dispises you

A Little Pony · 21-07-2017 04:17PM

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

According to the 2011 census, Irish was the main language of 0.238% of Northern Irish residents, while Ulster Scots was the main language of 0.004%. In other words, a grand total of 0.242% of the population of Northern Ireland speaks either as their primary language

Both the DUP and Sinn Fein should get their Language Act (or Acts) provided their assembly members agree to finance all the additional costs, including translation, signage, etc. out of their own pockets.

Fantastic post. It is just a sham and has nothing to do with the language at all. Sinn Fein aren't going anywhere with this one.

Stormont power sharing talks

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