Stormont power sharing talks

Red_Wake wrote: »

How would you describe the current SF response to unionism?

And is it a productive way of resolving the situation?

All the other parties would describe the behaviour of the DUP since the GFA as frustrating and intolerable any longer.
You cannot expect anybody to go on and on and on appeasing. (which is what southern partitionists always seem to want)

At the minute, it seems like nationalists are waiting for your 50% +1 votes, which is a product of demographic change as much as anything else[and could be set back by any number of national/international events], and hoping that in the event of unification, your opposing community will effectively cease to exist[which given the belligerence you repeatedly bring up, is unlikely].

Personally, as a voter in the ROI, were I asked to vote for a UI, I would vote for partition to continue. How would you persuade me that my concerns[economic, political, cultural and social] are unfounded?

Off topic, open another thread.

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well apart from the Orange Order/klan links. Sectarianism and supremacy.

The mere fact that people make glib comparisons between Unionists and the KKK as one poster did, shows how far mutual understanding and mutual respect have to go before the idea of unification can even be tabled.

steddyeddy

blanch152 wrote: »

There is no comparison. At all.

Well apart from the Orange Order/klan links. Sectarianism and supremacy.

Red_Wake

FrancieBrady wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

Not at all, make a big step towards representing all the people of Northern Ireland and be magnanimous towards the other side. Probably something beyond any of the actors in the North at the moment, but something we outsiders can wish for.

No.
Belligerent bigoted Unionism is not going to be appeased. Neither is lazy hat doffing partitionism. That is just kicking the problem down a road.

How would you describe the current SF response to unionism?

And is it a productive way of resolving the situation?

At the minute, it seems like nationalists are waiting for your 50% +1 votes, which is a product of demographic change as much as anything else[and could be set back by any number of national/international events], and hoping that in the event of unification, your opposing community will effectively cease to exist[which given the belligerence you repeatedly bring up, is unlikely].

Personally, as a voter in the ROI, were I asked to vote for a UI, I would vote for partition to continue. How would you persuade me that my concerns[economic, political, cultural and social] are unfounded?

blanch152 wrote: »

Not at all, make a big step towards representing all the people of Northern Ireland and be magnanimous towards the other side. Probably something beyond any of the actors in the North at the moment, but something we outsiders can wish for.

No.
Belligerent bigoted Unionism is not going to be appeased. Neither is lazy hat doffing partitionism. That is just kicking the problem down a road.

Don't pick one part of the post out so you can conveniently ignore the remainder.

blanch152 wrote: »

There is no comparison. At all.

I'll be a gentleman and make it easier for you:

1. Why should anyone have any interest in respecting, or appeasing, any culture that is built on (long gone) supremacism and sectarianism?

2. I'll tell you how we begin to reconcile, Unionists apologising for thier treatment of the minority and, you know, actually causing the troubles. How would that sit with Unionists? [amended DUP for Unionists]

3. Would your bizarre prescription for reconciliation expect Black people in the US to reconcile with the Klan?

4. Under the terms of the GFA a 50% +1 vote is all that's required for a UI, do you respect that agreement? [amended for clarity]

That's four questions.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Would your bizarre prescription for reconciliation expect Black people in the US to reconcile with the Klan?

There is no comparison. At all.

blanch152 wrote: »

You are the one that portrays me as having made a "they are all the same" claim as if it can be measured.

Why 30 years? Why not 50 years or the normal 800 years of oppression?

Looking back 20 years I only need to give one example - the Omagh bombing - to balance out the unionists anti-Irish stances (the fundamentalist stances should be disregarded) . Now I know the response will be that was not SF or the IRA and was condemned by ordinary nationalists, but there are many unionists who do not support the DUP position on everything.

If, as you appear to do, wish to tarnish the entire Unionist community with responsibility for the attitude of the DUP, then you must accept responsibility for the Omagh bombing and all other dissident republican activity.

Time and again on here I have described ordinary unionists as pragmatic reasonable decent people. And made the point time and again, that they are the reason Unionist politicians cannot and never have delivered the Never Never Never Armageddon they have so often threatened ( let's do the list to prove that).
All acts of violence were terrible, I accept that. Everybody, including those in the south who sat on their moral high ground, is tarnished by that. But it is over.

We have had circa 30 years talking about a settlement and an agreement.

I still challenge you to a list of behaviour under that settlement, that I contend will prove that there is one political party that is holding up normality and progress.

ARE you up to the challenge?

blanch152 wrote: »

It is very hard to understand but that type of sentiment appears to be widespread among Northern nationalists. It speaks to either

(1) an astonishing level of paranoia

(2) an embittered and entrenched hatred of unionists

This year was the most peaceful 12th in decades. Why? The parades commision has put a stop to orange/unionist parades being forced through where they're not wanted. Meanwhile Orangemen called for the DUP to include marching up the Garvaghy Road as a condition of DUP support for the Tories.

Either way it doesn't augur well for mutual respect and recognition of each others culture.

Why should anyone have any interest in respecting, or appeasing, any culture that is built on (long gone) supremacism and sectarianism? To hell with that.

I'll tell you how we begin to reconcile, Unionists apologising for thier treatment of the minority and, you know, actually causing the troubles. How would that sit with the DUP?

there is little hope of any reconciliation progress in the North

Would your bizarre prescription for reconciliation expect Black people in the US to reconcile with the Klan?

a necessary precondition for progress towards a united Ireland

Nope. 50% plus one vote. You're not against the GFA are you?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Acquiesce to make some people feel a little better about not calling out unadulterated bigotry and supremacy that has been going on since the foundation of the statelet?
Not going to happen in my name.
We have reached a crossroad.

Not at all, make a big step towards representing all the people of Northern Ireland and be magnanimous towards the other side. Probably something beyond any of the actors in the North at the moment, but something we outsiders can wish for.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'll challenge you to a list.
I will list unionist anti Irish/fundamentalist stances over the last 30 years and you come back with nationalist/Republican ones of the same weight, and we'll put the 'they are all the same' claim to bed once and for all.
You up for it?

You are the one that portrays me as having made a "they are all the same" claim as if it can be measured.

Why 30 years? Why not 50 years or the normal 800 years of oppression?

Looking back 20 years I only need to give one example - the Omagh bombing - to balance out the unionists anti-Irish stances (the fundamentalist stances should be disregarded) . Now I know the response will be that was not SF or the IRA and was condemned by ordinary nationalists, but there are many unionists who do not support the DUP position on everything.

If, as you appear to do, wish to tarnish the entire Unionist community with responsibility for the attitude of the DUP, then you must accept responsibility for the Omagh bombing and all other dissident republican activity.

blanch152 wrote: »

There is nobody on here defending the DUP's religious bigotry, misogyny or homophobia. However, it is interesting that the main thing being raised by nationalists on here is the Irish Language Act, mirroring SF's major concern out in the real world.

A real gamechanger for SF would be to back down on the Irish Language Act issue, accepting a Minority Languages Act instead, but in return insisted on same sex-marriage legalisation and adoption of UK abortion law. Now that would show they are interested in all the citizens of Northern Ireland rather than their own little patch.

Given the outrage that suggestion will create on here, I hold out little hope of it making it.

Acquiesce to make some people feel a little better about not calling out unadulterated bigotry and supremacy that has been going on since the foundation of the statelet?
Not going to happen in my name.
We have reached a crossroad.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If we were to write a list of all the things the DUP have dug their heels in about since before the GFA and after, it would be TL;DR.
And all of it based on their insecure anti-Irish and fundamentalist ideology.
And they capitulated on every one of them because their position is basically untenable and northern Ireland is a much much better place for that reason.

Their can be no hiding place for bigotry and suprematism on this island, not in a political party nor behind the skirts of a church.

There is nobody on here defending the DUP's religious bigotry, misogyny or homophobia. However, it is interesting that the main thing being raised by nationalists on here is the Irish Language Act, mirroring SF's major concern out in the real world.

A real gamechanger for SF would be to back down on the Irish Language Act issue, accepting a Minority Languages Act instead, but in return insisted on same sex-marriage legalisation and adoption of UK abortion law. Now that would show they are interested in all the citizens of Northern Ireland rather than their own little patch.

Given the outrage that suggestion will create on here, I hold out little hope of it making it.

blanch152 wrote: »

It is very hard to understand but that type of sentiment appears to be widespread among Northern nationalists. It speaks to either

(1) an astonishing level of paranoia

(2) an embittered and entrenched hatred of unionists

(3) I really can't think of a third option.

Either way it doesn't augur well for mutual respect and recognition of each others culture. If one side believes the others culture is solely for the purpose of degenerating theirs there is little hope of any reconciliation progress in the North, a necessary precondition for progress towards a united Ireland.

I'll challenge you to a list.
I will list unionist anti Irish/fundamentalist stances over the last 30 years and you come back with nationalist/Republican ones of the same weight, and we'll put the 'they are all the same' claim to bed once and for all.
You up for it?

Red_Wake wrote: »

Do you actually believe that Unionists make up their entire culture to denigrate, what you perceive, as Irish culture?

It is very hard to understand but that type of sentiment appears to be widespread among Northern nationalists. It speaks to either

(1) an astonishing level of paranoia

(2) an embittered and entrenched hatred of unionists

(3) I really can't think of a third option.

Either way it doesn't augur well for mutual respect and recognition of each others culture. If one side believes the others culture is solely for the purpose of degenerating theirs there is little hope of any reconciliation progress in the North, a necessary precondition for progress towards a united Ireland.

If we were to write a list of all the things the DUP have dug their heels in about since before the GFA and after, it would be TL;DR.
And all of it based on their insecure anti-Irish and fundamentalist ideology.
And they capitulated on every one of them because their position is basically untenable and northern Ireland is a much much better place for that reason.

Their can be no hiding place for bigotry and suprematism on this island, not in a political party nor behind the skirts of a church.

steddyeddy

Red_Wake wrote: »

Do you actually believe that Unionists make up their entire culture to denigrate, what you perceive, as Irish culture?

Bonfires with Irish flags?

tomwaterford

Red_Wake wrote: »

How do you expect anyone to believe you'd respect and coexist with Unionists, when you come out with statements like that?

What is wrong with this statement??

They've no interest in respect or coexisting.... continue ly voting in the dup...treating any minority with contempt (LGBT,refugees,polish immigrants in the north have been treated terribly in loyalist area)

Hardly as bad as refering to Ireland's national games as terrorists at play?

If they weren't forced to,they wouldn't share power with nationlists...they treat nationlists issues with contempt and block and play to rules to avoid/skirt around Irish language issues etc

Red_Wake wrote: »

How do you expect anyone to believe you'd respect and coexist with Unionists, when you come out with statements like that?

He is talking about 'loyalism'.

'Co-existing on an equal basis' is not kowtowing, sweeping stuff under the carpet or pretending.

Now if you can pretend, like others here, that the reason Stormont has collapsed is the fault of the Irish people of northern Ireland then you carry on doing that.
It really won't help or make any difference.

The rest of us will keep the pressure on these religiously fundamentalist, suprematists to honour the committments to equality for everyone made in various agreements that they want to cherrypick from.

If the Irish people of northern Ireland had rolled over on the flag issue, marches etc like it is suggested they should do here, you would be dealing with more futile conflict at the flashpoints.

Red_Wake

tomwaterford wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

Do you actually believe that Unionists make up their entire culture to denigrate, what you perceive, as Irish culture?

Yes, particularly in relation to this language

Do you have evidence to suggest they've culture that amounts to.anything else other than trimplulism

How do you expect anyone to believe you'd respect and coexist with Unionists, when you come out with statements like that?

tomwaterford

Red_Wake wrote: »

Do you actually believe that Unionists make up their entire culture to denigrate, what you perceive, as Irish culture?

Yes, particularly in relation to this language

Do you have evidence to suggest they've culture that amounts to.anything else other than trimplulism

FrancieBrady wrote: »

While it is great comedy it does rather ignore the fact that invaders do not do things in invaded territories for altruistic reasons. Rather they build infrastructure and the economies in order to make it easier for them to exploit.

Yes. I did a quick google on the matter and all I could find was this piece by historian Niall Ferguson which was written in 2003.

In fairness to him he's unequivocal about the misery British colonialism caused in Ireland (unlike many of our own journalists and politicians) but his attempt to 'balance the books' amounts to a rise in GDP after the famine (from former crushing poverty and mass starvation) and the benefits of Globalization in (then) modern Ireland, which he attributes to Britain.

Imagine that, a British Empire fetishist and celebrated British historian like Niall Ferguson struggles to find any evidence of the benefits of British colonialism in Ireland, who'd have thunk it?

Red_Wake

tomwaterford wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

I find it difficult to take this post seriously when the Sinn Fein shop is selling Provisional IRA badges.

What does need to be done, and we in the South are as guilty as anyone, is that we need to set a lead by embracing the British aspects of our heritage and culture and acknowledging the positive aspects of the British influence on us. After all, we are the ones who are supposed to be attempting to persuade people of the inclusive nature of a united Ireland.

Hers your problem
Your viewing since SF. Is promoting an Irish language act it's a bad thing??

No matter what nationalist party is pushing it dup/loyalists will oppose it

So your running to loyalists,a culture whose soul purpose is to degenerate Irish culture (making up a language to take the piss outta irish FFS)

The fact you feel safer with these as allies,while claiming to love Irish culture (but not wanting any language act for Irish in Ireland :rolleyes: )

Your are either A: so blinded by anti republican sentiment that your judgement is blinded to loyalists/Ulster Scots :rolleyes: culture (Google July 11 bonfire for example)

Or B....your not such the fan of Irish culture as you perceive yourself to be...perhaps explains your instranginence and wanting to run down and dismiss the Irish language at every available opportunities

Do you actually believe that Unionists make up their entire culture to denigrate, what you perceive, as Irish culture?

Presumably we were going to get the 'What did the Romans Ever Do For Us' clip.

While it is great comedy it does rather ignore the fact that invaders do not do things in invaded territories for altruistic reasons.
Rather they build infrastructure and the economies in order to make it easier for them to exploit.

Michael Palin, (one of the MP sketch team) did a great hurt/quizzical look to the camera when he didn't hear what he wanted to hear about what Britain did for the Indian part of the empire on a travel programme a while ago.

The irony was fantastic.

tomwaterford

blanch152 wrote: »

I find it difficult to take this post seriously when the Sinn Fein shop is selling Provisional IRA badges.

What does need to be done, and we in the South are as guilty as anyone, is that we need to set a lead by embracing the British aspects of our heritage and culture and acknowledging the positive aspects of the British influence on us. After all, we are the ones who are supposed to be attempting to persuade people of the inclusive nature of a united Ireland.

Hers your problem
Your viewing since SF. Is promoting an Irish language act it's a bad thing??

No matter what nationalist party is pushing it dup/loyalists will oppose it

So your running to loyalists,a culture whose soul purpose is to degenerate Irish culture (making up a language to take the piss outta irish FFS)

The fact you feel safer with these as allies,while claiming to love Irish culture (but not wanting any language act for Irish in Ireland :rolleyes: )

Your are either A: so blinded by anti republican sentiment that your judgement is blinded to loyalists/Ulster Scots :rolleyes: culture (Google July 11 bonfire for example)

Or B....your not such the fan of Irish culture as you perceive yourself to be...perhaps explains your instranginence and wanting to run down and dismiss the Irish language at every available opportunities

Chips Lovell

blanch152 wrote: »

Am I allowed post a Monty Python clip in response?

No.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Which were?

Am I allowed post a Monty Python clip in response?

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Don't most people from the UK describe themselves as "British"?

I'm confident the vast majority of people who live in Wales would describe themselves as Welsh, the same for Scotland, but in Ireland (or NI as they'd call it) a large majority of Unionists describe themselves as 'British Only'. This is a rejection of identifying with the place they live and the Irish who live there.