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How much detail does a workplace legally need when you are out?

24

Comments

  • #32
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,189 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    MaroonAndGreen wrote: »
    Very similar situation in fact. I was shocked at being asked how and when I travelled home. Who was I attending too? What's wrong with them? This was all after I had said it's a family emergency, was told that's not enough, I replied "is that not a sufficient reason, there is no need for details here surely?". And I basically gave in to the pressure of a stern manager on the other side of the phone. Looking back I'm sorry I didn't hold my ground and say no I'm sorry but that's private. The more I think about it the more inappropriate I think it was that I was required to go into them details.

    Sounds like a dick boss. What industry are you in?


  • #33
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Maybe I'm reading this wrong, you were absent from work without leave being granted, you weren't sick, you weren't unable to work, you are not claiming it as FM, but you are unhappy with being asked for details/explanation as to why you were absent from work?

    So, let's say a colleague wants a lie in or hasn't gotten a day off when requested and decides to call in giving the same meagre details you did, how's the Boss supposed to know which one to believe?


  • #34
    MaroonAndGreen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭MaroonAndGreen


    davo10 wrote: »
    Maybe I'm reading this wrong, you were absent from work without leave being granted, you weren't sick, you weren't unable to work, you are not claiming it as FM, but you are unhappy with being asked for details/explanation as to why you were absent from work?

    So, let's say a colleague wants a lie in or hasn't gotten a day off when requested and decides to call in giving the same meagre details you did, how's the Boss supposed to know which one to believe?

    I was absolutely unable to work. I had a family member dependent on me who was unwell.

    Someone asked the industry. Insurance.


  • #35
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    MaroonAndGreen wrote: »
    I was absolutely unable to work. I had a family member dependent on me who was unwell.

    Someone asked the industry. Insurance.

    Sorry but you are absolutely wrong, you were not unfit for work, you took a day for personal reasons. I am not disputing the fact that you needed to be at home, but I believe your employer has a right to know why you didn't turn up for work when you were fit to do so.

    As others have pointed out, there is annual leave, absense due to illness (yours), maternity leave and FM, do any of these apply to you?


  • #36
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,189 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    MaroonAndGreen wrote: »
    Someone asked the industry. Insurance.

    Sorry to be unkind, but people in insurance are nosy bastards!

    Still unnaceptable, presuming you have been there a while and are a good worker.


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  • #37
    MaroonAndGreen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭MaroonAndGreen


    I gave an explanation, but I'm unhappy at the detail I was pressured into going into. I understand an explanation is needed I just thought it was inappropriate the level of detail asked.


  • #38
    MaroonAndGreen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭MaroonAndGreen


    davo10 wrote: »
    MaroonAndGreen wrote: »
    I was absolutely unable to work. I had a family member dependent on me who was unwell.

    Someone asked the industry. Insurance.

    Sorry but you are absolutely wrong, you were not unfit for work, you took a day for personal reasons. I am not disputing the fact that you needed to be at home, but I believe your employer has a right to know why you didn't turn up for work when you were fit to do so.

    And the employer was told it was a personal family emergency. I think it's totally unacceptable to ask for further details in that situation. Maybe you don't but I do.


  • #39
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    MaroonAndGreen wrote: »
    I gave an explanation, but I'm unhappy at the detail I was pressured into going into. I understand an explanation is needed I just thought it was inappropriate the level of detail asked.

    Just one thing I want to clarify, did you ring in advance and let your employer know you weren't going to make it, or did you just not turn up and dealt with it the next day?
    That could explain the company being a bit more dickish about the whole thing.
    If you did ring ahead, yeah, totally overboard.


  • #40
    DuffleBag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 649 ✭✭✭DuffleBag


    Should've just rang in sick yourself. No need for a cert if under 2 days.


  • #41
    MaroonAndGreen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭MaroonAndGreen


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    MaroonAndGreen wrote: »
    I gave an explanation, but I'm unhappy at the detail I was pressured into going into. I understand an explanation is needed I just thought it was inappropriate the level of detail asked.

    Just one thing I want to clarify, did you ring in advance and let your employer know you weren't going to make it, or did you just not turn up and dealt with it the next day?
    That could explain the company being a bit more dickish about the whole thing.
    If you did ring ahead, yeah, totally overboard.

    Rang in advance.


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  • #42
    RunRoryRun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 476 ✭✭RunRoryRun


    Asking about who it was is legitimate as FM may only apply to certain family members and not others.


  • #43
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,189 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    I think the real problem is the manner of questioning. The implication.


  • #44
    MaroonAndGreen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭MaroonAndGreen


    J Mysterio wrote: »
    I think the real problem is the manner of questioning. The implication.

    The manner of questioning was as though I was lying. Which has me riled up to be honest. The least of my worries was my workplace. And then having to justify it with all the details over the phone at that time was wrong IMO.


  • #45
    MaroonAndGreen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭MaroonAndGreen


    Also I should have added earlier, I was never aware FM existed until it was mentioned on this thread, so apologies for my lack of engagement on that


  • #46
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,693 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    i think the real question should be , where is the line between being a legit reason and an excuse.
    surely what the employer is doing is looking for a reason to complain about the reason.


  • #47
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,752 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    MaroonAndGreen wrote: »
    The manner of questioning was as though I was lying. Which has me riled up to be honest. The least of my worries was my workplace. And then having to justify it with all the details over the phone at that time was wrong IMO.

    Was it your line manager or someone from HR?

    HR people are often seasoned ars€holes who would wind up the most placid of us..


  • #48
    MaroonAndGreen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭MaroonAndGreen


    lawred2 wrote: »
    MaroonAndGreen wrote: »
    The manner of questioning was as though I was lying. Which has me riled up to be honest. The least of my worries was my workplace. And then having to justify it with all the details over the phone at that time was wrong IMO.

    Was it your line manager or someone from HR?

    HR people are often seasoned ars€holes who would wind up the most placid of us..

    Line manager. I don't know how to approach this tomorrow to be honest.


  • #49
    MaroonAndGreen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭MaroonAndGreen


    the_pen_turner wrote: »
    i think the real question should be , where is the line between being a legit reason and an excuse.
    surely what the employer is doing is looking for a reason to complain about the reason.

    Is there anything more possibly legit than a family problem? If my manager was to get a call that her kids were very poorly, is she gona stay at her desk for the rest of the day or go to bring them to the doctor? You know what I mean.


  • #50
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    MaroonAndGreen wrote: »
    Is there anything more possibly legit than a family problem? If my manager was to get a call that her kids were very poorly, is she gona stay at her desk for the rest of the day or go to bring them to the doctor? You know what I mean.

    Yes people can be very manipulative.

    When you first rang in did you say something vague like " a family member is ill, I can't come in tomorrow as I've to care for them"?


  • #51
    MaroonAndGreen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭MaroonAndGreen


    Stheno wrote: »
    Yes people can be very manipulative.

    When you first rang in did you say something vague like " a family member is ill, I can't come in tomorrow as I've to care for them"?

    Almost my exact words to be honest.


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  • #52
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Stheno wrote: »
    Yes people can be very manipulative.

    When you first rang in did you say something vague like " a family member is ill, I can't come in tomorrow as I've to care for them"?

    I don't see a problem with that. No one should expected the Spanish Inquisition in that case. :D (unless they're pulling that every week)
    Asking who was it, what was wrong with them, how did the OP travel there is invasive and unnecessary. And the manner of questioning in this case is borderline bullying. But of course line manager in insurance is going to be used to grilling people on every tiny detail of their claim, so this would extend to employees I guess.
    Personally, if a family member is ill, I'll go and care for them and my boss can bite me. If he wants to twist a rope out of that for me, he can see how that flies later on. Thankfully I work in a very good office and won't have that worry.
    But fired/disciplinary for caring for a loved one won't get far. Some things have to be more important than work.


  • #53
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    MaroonAndGreen wrote: »
    Almost my exact words to be honest.

    Were you then asked which family member and what illness they had that meant you'd to stay away from work to mind them?

    If e.g. it was your partner and you'd kids, and you'd to take the day off to deal with the kids, fine, if e.g. they have a chronic illness and are incapacitated that's also fine.

    If they had a cold or the winter vomiting bug, that would be different imo.
    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    I don't see a problem with that. No one should expected the Spanish Inquisition in that case. :D (unless they're pulling that every week)
    Asking who was it, what was wrong with them, how did the OP travel there is invasive and unnecessary. And the manner of questioning in this case is borderline bullying. But of course line manager in insurance is going to be used to grilling people on every tiny detail of their claim, so this would extend to employees I guess.
    Personally, if a family member is ill, I'll go and care for them and my boss can bite me. If he wants to twist a rope out of that for me, he can see how that flies later on. Thankfully I work in a very good office and won't have that worry.
    But fired/disciplinary for caring for a loved one won't get far. Some things have to be more important than work.
    THe travel thing is weird, however, I see no issue in asking who the family member was and why they were ill.

    In extremis, I once had a member of staff who had six grandparents die in two years, and in another organisation I worked in management regularly checked rip.ie to check out supposed deaths of family members.


  • #54
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,752 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Stheno wrote: »
    Were you then asked which family member and what illness they had that meant you'd to stay away from work to mind them?

    If e.g. it was your partner and you'd kids, and you'd to take the day off to deal with the kids, fine, if e.g. they have a chronic illness and are incapacitated that's also fine.

    If they had a cold or the winter vomiting bug, that would be different imo.

    THe travel thing is weird, however, I see no issue in asking who the family member was and why they were ill.

    In extremis, I once had a member of staff who had six grandparents die in two years, and in another organisation I worked in management regularly checked rip.ie to check out supposed deaths of family members.

    The winter vomiting bug is nothing whatsoever like a cold.


  • #55
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    lawred2 wrote: »
    The winter vomiting bug is nothing whatsoever like a cold.

    I've had the winter vomiting bug, I didn't need my partner to stay home to mind me tbh.

    Yes it was thoroughly crap, but I just needed to sleep, and take in lots of fluids.

    A partner who made sure the house was rightly heated, and left plenty of fluids by my locker would still be able to go to work.

    I've had bad colds, where I literally spend time in bed shivering, puking, and exhausted, not dissimilar to the winter vomiting bug.


  • #56
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,752 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Stheno wrote: »
    I've had the winter vomiting bug, I didn't need my partner to stay home to mind me tbh.

    Yes it was thoroughly crap, but I just needed to sleep, and take in lots of fluids.

    A partner who made sure the house was rightly heated, and left plenty of fluids by my locker would still be able to go to work.

    I've had bad colds, where I literally spend time in bed shivering, puking, and exhausted, not dissimilar to the winter vomiting bug.

    So you've narrowed your basis for analysis to two grown adults?

    What about a parent whose toddler or school going child has the winter vomiting bug?


  • #57
    MaroonAndGreen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭MaroonAndGreen


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Stheno wrote: »
    Yes people can be very manipulative.

    When you first rang in did you say something vague like " a family member is ill, I can't come in tomorrow as I've to care for them"?

    I don't see a problem with that. No one should expected the Spanish Inquisition in that case. :D (unless they're pulling that every week)
    Asking who was it, what was wrong with them, how did the OP travel there is invasive and unnecessary. And the manner of questioning in this case is borderline bullying. But of course line manager in insurance is going to be used to grilling people on every tiny detail of their claim, so this would extend to employees I guess.
    Personally, if a family member is ill, I'll go and care for them and my boss can bite me. If he wants to twist a rope out of that for me, he can see how that flies later on. Thankfully I work in a very good office and won't have that worry.
    But fired/disciplinary for caring for a loved one won't get far. Some things have to be more important than work.

    That did come to my mind actually, that basically every phone call that manager has everyday is grilling someone to find out the truth.


  • #58
    MaroonAndGreen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭MaroonAndGreen


    Stheno wrote: »
    MaroonAndGreen wrote: »
    Almost my exact words to be honest.

    Were you then asked which family member and what illness they had that meant you'd to stay away from work to mind them?

    If e.g. it was your partner and you'd kids, and you'd to take the day off to deal with the kids, fine, if e.g. they have a chronic illness and are incapacitated that's also fine.

    If they had a cold or the winter vomiting bug, that would be different imo.
    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    I don't see a problem with that. No one should expected the Spanish Inquisition in that case. :D (unless they're pulling that every week)
    Asking who was it, what was wrong with them, how did the OP travel there is invasive and unnecessary. And the manner of questioning in this case is borderline bullying. But of course line manager in insurance is going to be used to grilling people on every tiny detail of their claim, so this would extend to employees I guess.
    Personally, if a family member is ill, I'll go and care for them and my boss can bite me. If he wants to twist a rope out of that for me, he can see how that flies later on. Thankfully I work in a very good office and won't have that worry.
    But fired/disciplinary for caring for a loved one won't get far. Some things have to be more important than work.
    THe travel thing is weird, however, I see no issue in asking who the family member was and why they were ill.

    In extremis, I once had a member of staff who had six grandparents die in two years, and in another organisation I worked in management regularly checked rip.ie to check out supposed deaths of family members.

    Yes I was then asked this. Along with who informed me. How I travelled? When I find out? I'll also add that at no point was there a bit of empathy shown or at no point even after explaining why I was at home did the manager ask how was the family member etc. Just a cold conversation.


  • #59
    Ma Walton
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12 ✭Ma Walton


    Are you expecting to have the day as paid leave or unpaid? Assuming you're not going down the FM route.

    Tbh your manager could just be really unfamiliar with dealing with this kind of absence so may not realise they're overstepping. You'll notice it took quite a few posts on here for people to fully understand exactly what the nature/circumstances of your absence were. I think if you're expecting it as paid leave there is generally more questioning about why you needed the day off to see how they would classify it at their end, i.e. annual leave or sick leave.

    If you're unhappy with the line of questioning I think it's reasonable to say it's a sensitive family matter and you'd prefer to discuss it directly with HR (if you have HR?). Also if you clarify you're happy to take it as unpaid leave given the circumstances (if you are happy to of course) might calm the manager down a little on the grilling.

    Legally beyond explaining a family member was ill and your immediate attendance was essential I wouldn't think any more was required. I mean, if they fired you for it and it ended up in court that's a reasonable explanation. They couldn't really argue you hadn't told them why you were absent...because you did.

    Good luck.


  • #60
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,010 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Some employers are just plain weird, **** happens in life from time to time and people require time to deal with it. We 're all adults here, no bull**** excuses should be required to explain absence, if employer wants more details and this is deemed too personal or crossing a line, employers should expect bull**** back.


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  • #61
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Some employers are just plain weird, **** happens in life from time to time and people require time to deal with it. We 're all adults here, no bull**** excuses should be required to explain absence, if employer wants more details and this is deemed too personal or crossing a line, employers should expect bull**** back.

    Well, put it this way, I don't think you'll become a line manager in the insurance industry by being a nice person. You'll probably have to grill old ladies to the nth degree to find something, anything, that means you can wriggle your way out of paying her a lump sum after the death of her husband of 40 years and then you get a fat bonus and a slap on the back. It's a calling, you'll have to live for this kind of stuff.


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